Hello All: I'm new here, but you may remember my Penton - the 77 GS6 175 sold at a bicycle auction in NY some months ago, and discussed here on the site. Well I'm that bike's owner and I'm hoping that I can lean on you all for some help and guidance in bringing this Penton back to life. The good news is the bike seems very original, straight and complete, so it presents a good starting place for a restoration. The speedo shows about 1800 miles. The bad news is there's not much that doesn't need attention, the worst of which is crankcase corrosion the likes of which I've never seen. I can't believe the volume of junk found. It's pretty bad, but not that deep. Question of the day: does blasting and filling/coating with JB weld make an effective repair? My intention is to make it a sound rider/racer, so reliability is important. Here's a few photos. Thanks in advance for any advice and comments. Hank
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I don't have an answer to your corrosion question, but it would really be cool if you could keep the License Plate with the bike and get it registered for the street again.
g
72 six-day
Hello, Really nice and complete looking Penton. For starters, I would suggest to completely remove all the internal components of the engine, and clean the cases and the parts well. The crank really has some debris on it. Are you able to remove the crank from the cases? I believe the cases are Magnesium, so you will want to be careful when working with them. They are a little brittle, especially with age and corrosion. Upon further inspection, you will have a better idea which route you will need to follow. joe
I was at the auction. I wanted to talk to ya, but you go out of dodge quick. Some really cool stuff there. Where are you located??
As to the corrosion issue, you might want to see if you can find good cases to start with, then build from there.
Also, welcome to the group, you won't find a nicer, more giving group of people than you will here. You need anything, just ask, from info to parts, you've come to the right place.. :D
I rebuilt a couple 73 Penton 250's and 72/73 175's with the KTM crankcases looking familiar...I ended up buying a few motors to get what I needed. I stayed away from the JB weld...kinda like solid cases, others swear the JB will work fine..lot depends on what your intended use is...competitive racing or trail riding and if you don't mind a little oils leaks and of course all depends on $$$$$.
Just my 2 cents.
Victor
Hank welcome to Pentonia, yes more than likely the cases are Magnesium, Magnesium and water do not mix well. It usually looks worse than it is. Still taking the motor completely apart and checking everything is a very good idea. Give a look at the supplier list. You should be able to find what you need. A good manual is the place to start if you do not have one already.. Give AL. B a call he can fix you up. The Rear brake stay looks like it is hand built. maybe not but it I do not think it is the stock one. it looks nothing like the stock one.
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)74'
250 hare scrambler (project bike)
That rear stay might not be stock but it sure is beefy. Rocks beware!
Britt Boyette
1976 125 MC5
1975 250 HS
Hank,
I would contact Chicago Jerry because he is working on a lot of KTM engines and I've seen some coating that he used on some cases. Here's Jerry's e-mail:
[email protected].
Dane
In case anyone is wondering, the first 2 pics is how it was sold at the auction, grass and all.
hi hank. (and thanks dane for the vote of confidence) its hard to tell from your pictures how bad the crankcase area is really deteriorated.yours trans area looked good tho. once you get it all cleaned up. try taking some more pictures and sending it to me. if the pitting is not that deep as you stated, they may be salvageable. i have had very good success rescuing motors from getting scrapped out. but its especially critical around the gasket area. the epoxy i use is marine-tex grey. i have tried many different epoxies in different applications but this is the best for this style of repair. some times it takes a couple of coats with the possibility of the gasket surface needing to be
faced-off/machined. after i make the epoxy repair, i paint the crankcase area with glyptol paint. as an added precaution, in addition to the centercase gasket, i coat both sides of the gasket with a anaerobic sealer. that will take up more of any imperfections. are you going to the potomac vintage riders swap-meet? i could look at them there if you are. good luck, that motor will come back to life in that beauty. chi jer
[email protected]
Guys,
Thanks for all the response - I knew I was in good company. I got this Penton from the guy who bought it at auction, but besides missing some of the accumulated hay, it hasn't really been touched til I started on it last week. The plate and registration are from NY 1978. I'm in SE PA (near Valley Forge)and know it's fairly easy in PA to get an antique tag - one lifetime registration and no inspections. But I'm not sure if that will work for dual sports and enduros. The brake stay looks professionally made on a mill, kinda like the Carl Cranke version. Back to the engine - it's now apart and partly cleaned up - I made the tool to press the crank out from the clutch side and it came apart easily (let me know if anyone can use this little press.) The crank and bearings look amazingly decent and being on a strict budget, I'm tempted to use them, but will decide later. I did talk to Al and know what's available. Anyway, my plan is to blast the mag side crankcase area today after work and see what it looks like. There's a spot on the low mating surface where it close to the edge, so I've got my fingers crossed. I'll get the clutch side later. Jerry: I would like to learn more about the repair, and will post a picture or two as soon as I get the chance. Thanks again for the help and interest. Hank
Jerry, I have a Sachs engine with the mag/sprocket area broken (what else is new?). Would the marine-tex grey epoxy work in an area like that? Where can I purchase that specific marine-tex grey epoxy? You know I live locally, so I could shop locally.... Thank you, Joe
Joe,
I've just welded up a mag side of the case for Doug Wilford. The case and cover were had holes in them and I "fixed" it.
Dane
Hank
I sent you an email through the system but maybe it is not working yet. I have a 175 bottom end that I built up last year, ready to go if you are interested.
Rocket
Hank, I have done a couple of case sets with mag rot, using epoxy with good success. Both times they were in worse condition than what is visable in your cases. The rot has always been confined to the crank and the ignition area. Clutch side and tranny area have always been clean, but that have always had oil in them.
ChicagoJerry knows what he is doing, let him look at them at the swap meet.
Tony
Rocket:
Thanks for the offer. I'm going to give the epoxy repair a try. If that fails, I'll be in touch. By the way, the email did not show up. Thanks again, Hank
Update one year later: This '77 GS6 175 gave new meaning to the old adage 'ridden hard an put away wet', but it has been successfully resurrected! Finally got her back together and out sometime in September, for Snoop's NY ride (parked next to James).(http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab177/hankmccurdy/P1010022.jpg) (http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab177/hankmccurdy/P1010016.jpg)
Still need to do some sorting out but I really love the way it rides. It's just a great bike. Also, the Metzeler Unicross knobbies work great. Thanks to Al B. and others for help and advice. All the best, Hank
Hi Hank
I really like your bike. I was very close to putting in a serious absentee bid on this bike when it was at auction, but with the cost of shipping to west coast I backed out. I talked to the people running the auction and they told me the bike had been set up and sent from the factory for a European rider who was supposed to ride it in a six day qualifier and he never showed up, so it was sold to an American who rode and competed on it very hard for a while and then parked it for along time before it was auctioned. This is a very worthwhile and unique project. welcome to the POG
Good Luck
Doug Bridges
73 Jackpiner
74 Rickman Zundapp
78 Suzuki PE175
82 XR200R
So what did you do to fix the crankcase corrosion? Did you just clean it and run it or fill the pits with epoxy? New cases?
Richard: I got some advice on the procedure from Chicago Jerry and went from there. He uses Marine-tex, but I used JB-weld since it is easier to come by here and is similarly rated - something like 4000 psi, and can handle heat too. The epoxy seals the crankcase area and prevents stress concentrations at the sharp-edged pits. The rot went pretty deep, but the crank and bearing carrying structures weren't really effected. The areas were thoroughly blasted clean (with silicone carbide), and washed with acetone. To make applying the JB easier, I made a guide plate which was bolted on the case half. This helped form perfectly flat mating surfaces on the cases. Several coats of JB were applied with a plastic putty knife and then smoothed down with a Dremel and finished off with Duplicolor ceramic engine paint. It took some time but I believe this repair will last forever. If you or anyone is undertaking this type of repair and has any questions about what I did, please let me know. Regards, Hank
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Nice '77 I love the way the '77 models handled. I used to have a '77 400GS along the the '76 400 that I still own. It was amazing the difference between the two. My '76 handled like a tank compared to the '77 !
Nice work and I like the fact that you didn'y over-restore it. The bike has character!
-I'd like to attend one of the vintage rides this year.
Kurt
Wow, that does look like a good repair! Thanks for posting the pictures, they really show that engine cases that appear scrap can be salvaged. Great job!
Hi Hank, We met last year at the vintage ride in Monroe, NY. I had the 76 250 MC5, and the Suzuki 175 PE. The bike looks great! There is a vintage ride just outside of Albany, NY on May 7th. I hope to see you there! Happy trails, James
Doug: Thanks, that's interesting info, I wonder who these guys were/are. Maybe I'll look into it. The only feature on this bike that may be unusual (and suggest some special treatment)is the rear brake which is grooved radially, or longitudinally, not parallel to the axle like some shoes. Both the drum and the shoes are grooved and the it really works - feels like a disk. Anyone seen this before?
Kurt: Thanks for the compliment. My original plan was to leave the bike cosmetically alone and just do the mechanicals, but it's sometimes tougher to leave stuff alone than to redo it, if you know what I mean. I agree, this bike really does handle well. It doesn't do anything wrong - no head-shake, carves corners, changes direction well in the woods - at least at the speed I ride. The chassis seems to over-match the engine, so I'd like to try a 250 or 400, although a 175 suits me well and keeps me out of trouble. I give the Unicross tires credit too. Are you in the northeast? James says there's a ride in NY in May.
Richard: Thanks. Based on what more experienced guys have told me I don't have to worry about the repair. You'd have to take it apart and look closely to see it. I prefer to use the original parts if at all possible, so having repaired cases doesn't bother me.
James: Yeah, I remember we were right next to each other and there were too few Pentons. Keep me posted on that Monroe ride in May. Word has it that Alex may make his ride a two day deal this year. We'll see. We got there on Friday last year. I impressed my brother and friend (on Maicos), when I took the Penton out on the 7 mile woods loop alone fairly late in the day. I had just gotten it back together and hadn't really ridden it before, but she didn't skip a beat and nothing fell off! They said I was over confident (or stupid?). :D
Best regards to all, Hank
Hank
Get a hold of the guy that runs the Copake auction. He is a really nice guy and as I recall, he knew the guy that put this up for auction personally and if that's the case he may be able to put you in contact with him.
Doug Bridges
73 Jackpiner
74 Rickman Zundapp
78 Suzuki PE175
82 XR200R
Hank your bike looks great. Very cool work on the cases. I see you could not resist the C. Cranke brake stay! Also the P Petty skid and fender are nicely retained.
Anyway, I'm in Pa too and have been through the drill a few times on getting antique plates for Pentons and other old bikes. It is very easy if you have a title. A bit more complicated if you do not have a title. But still it is not at all a lost cause. I have plates on my Jackpiner, a Hare Scrambler, a Bultaco Frontera, and Hercules 7-speeder coming soon.
To avoid headaches with Penndot and the tag service, however, you must very carefully follow the instructions. Let me know if you choose to embark on this venture and I will help if needed and able. Regards, John
Hank: I really liked the idea of the guide plate. Many, many years ago before POG I did a set of cases and had a nuclear certified welder weld up all the damage and I then re-machined cases. Then lapped cases to be sure they had not distorted. Very expensive but absolutely permanent. If you ever have top end off in near future let us know how the paint holds up to constant fuel exposure.
Ted
Doug, Thanks for the tip, I'll do that and report back. Sounds like it might be an interesting history. I'd say this bike got thrashed pretty well at some point.
John, The front fender set me back 5- at Mid-OH. I'm familiar with getting a title through Int'l in Vegas. Did it for a Triumph not too long ago. Cost like 125-. Is that what you do? I'd be tempted to do antique tags which avoids the yearly reg fee because it's permanent, and also there's no inspection required. Insurance is cheap too.
Ted, I have to do the topend so I'll get a look at the paint. The thought had crossed my mind because the Dupli supposedly being ceramic in some way - I would not want it to come loose. It seems to be durable. The insides of the cases were originally painted if I'm not mistaken.
A good friend of mine is one of the owners of Powerseal USA. They plate cylinders with nickel silicon carbide. Anyone have any thoughts on that for a vintage engine? I guess it couldn't hurt. Hank
Quotequote:Originally posted by 400gs6
Nice '77 I love the way the '77 models handled. I used to have a '77 400GS along the the '76 400 that I still own. It was amazing the difference between the two. My '76 handled like a tank compared to the '77 !
Nice work and I like the fact that you didn'y over-restore it. The bike has character!
-I'd like to attend one of the vintage rides this year.
Kurt
Kurt, Hank, and anyone else that is interested, Here is the info for the vintage ride in NY this coming May 7th.
The next All Brands Vintage Ride is now set for Sat. May 7th 2011. There will be
a FREE
BBQ hosted by Me (Larry) same as last year. This will be a GREAT GREAT day .
The ride will be hosted at the Farm of Dave Flach. So mark your calendars , tell
your friends, everyone is invited NO CRY BABIES its all about a good day of
vintage riding.
As the date gets near we will ask someone to set up a small Trial ride anyone
wanted to volunteer contact me off site.
So don't forget Dave and Larry's ALL BRANDS RIDE SAT. MAY 7th 2011 mark the
date!!!!!!! Coeymans Hollow New York 15 minutes from Albany.
15 miles Loop . Any questions email
[email protected].
Larry
Quotequote:Originally posted by Hank McCurdy
Doug: Thanks, that's interesting info, I wonder who these guys were/are. Maybe I'll look into it. The only feature on this bike that may be unusual (and suggest some special treatment)is the rear brake which is grooved radially, or longitudinally, not parallel to the axle like some shoes. Both the drum and the shoes are grooved and the it really works - feels like a disk. Anyone seen this before?
Kurt: Thanks for the compliment. My original plan was to leave the bike cosmetically alone and just do the mechanicals, but it's sometimes tougher to leave stuff alone than to redo it, if you know what I mean. I agree, this bike really does handle well. It doesn't do anything wrong - no head-shake, carves corners, changes direction well in the woods - at least at the speed I ride. The chassis seems to over-match the engine, so I'd like to try a 250 or 400, although a 175 suits me well and keeps me out of trouble. I give the Unicross tires credit too. Are you in the northeast? James says there's a ride in NY in May.
Richard: Thanks. Based on what more experienced guys have told me I don't have to worry about the repair. You'd have to take it apart and look closely to see it. I prefer to use the original parts if at all possible, so having repaired cases doesn't bother me.
James: Yeah, I remember we were right next to each other and there were too few Pentons. Keep me posted on that Monroe ride in May. Word has it that Alex may make his ride a two day deal this year. We'll see. We got there on Friday last year. I impressed my brother and friend (on Maicos), when I took the Penton out on the 7 mile woods loop alone fairly late in the day. I had just gotten it back together and hadn't really ridden it before, but she didn't skip a beat and nothing fell off! They said I was over confident (or stupid?). :D
Best regards to all, Hank
Hank, You can ride my 250 this year at one of the rides. James
GREAT RESTORATION! The reason the brake shoes are grooved directionally is to allow water, dirt, or mud to be dissipated off the brake shoes and drum surface. Think of it as a small trough to direct the crap off the shoe and surface. For those who have ever ridden their motorcycles through deep water or mud, we all know the drums fill with the water and mud. Brakes do not work well, or sometimes not at all when wet. I used to add a bead of silicone seal around the opening between the brake hub and backplate, then rotate the parts before the silicone hardens so it makes a seal but is not locked tightly. Joe.
Penton use to sell seal kits for both the front and rear hubs. They seemed to work for me. I still have a set in my spares locker.
Tony