Just tried to fit my freshly rebuilt motoplat mini six ignition to my points model 1251/5a and as far as I can see , the end of the crank is smaller ! Can anyone help !!! Gary
Gary,
Just guessing, but are you sure you don't have a MotoPlatt to fit a KTM engine?
Ron Carbaugh
no it's off sashs motor I purchased a while ago ,My other 1251/5a motor that I use came with motoplat! ?
Gary,
Are you saying the flywheel won't fit?
Ron Carbaugh
Gary,
What is the model number on the outside of the circumference of the flywheel. The Sachs engines should be fit to the 9600142, 9600150, 9600160, 9600166, 9600192, and 0616012.
Those are the same taper in the flywheels.
Dane
Sorry again for delay in reply to your posts
firstly ,as i said ron the motoplat flywheel center is a bigger bore than the end of the crank on my motor.
As i was trying to replace old points system with a motoplat system
Dane,thank you for your info !
The model number on motoplat flywheel i was trying to fit is
9600162, but the bosch flywheel that came off is 0212-124-014
I think that the motor is an early model 1251/5a as it has standard fitment oil pump! ,engine no :5499134
do you have any idear what year ??
thanks again to you all for your help:)
Gary
Oil pump???
I thought this was starting to get good. Will a Sachs side cover fit a Can Am or some other brand engine case? Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Yes sir,it was built with oil pump ,sits just foward of the clutch and the crankcase is approx 1/2" wider at that point
and it has OIL INJECTION cast into the caseing
all very different to all the other motors i have!!
Ok, I'll bite, you got any pics of this unit??? Which side of the motor is the clutch on?? Where is the oil tank located on the bike??
OK Gary you must understand everyone here is use to dealing with Sachs engines that were fitted to Pentons. What year engine are you dealing with and what model bike and as Dan says...we need pictures. Period.
Ron Carbaugh
Speedy is probably the most familiar with the Sachs bikes and may have an idea about when they used oil injection pumps, as it sounds like Gary is also unsure what year it is, or what bike it originally came out of. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
On some of my very early Pentons, the cast iron Sachs cylinders do have an oil injection hole cast into the intake, just forward of the carb on the left side. The hole is plugged with a bolt as Penton did not use the oil injection. On the later cast iron cylinders on the Pentons the oil injection hole is cast shut. If you have a cast iron cylinder take a look on the left side of the intake and you can see the location I am speaking of. If you look at an "A" crank the left side has a slot in it, that is what drives the oil pump. The "B" cranks do not have that slot.
A NOS 75cc Sachs engine on the shelf has the entire oil injection unit on it, including the oil line to the intake and the pump. The pump is located inside the left sidecover.
An early Sachs engine book shows the cast iron 1001/5A and 1251/5A with, and without, an oil pump.
Paul
Gary,
The 9600162 is designed for the KTM engines, not for the Sachs engines.
Dane Leimbach
Paul's right, I got out my early parts book and viola', oil pump, part #0674 001 000. Goes on clutch side, cover is entirely different.....but still want to see pics. Seeing is believing. Check parts book Penton 001.
Gary,
The Sachs engine number from Penton V-015 is 5389021, and the Sachs engine number from the original sales receipt from Penton Brothers Motorcycle Agency for Penton V-002 is 5389013. Both of these Pentons were built very early in 1968. The number from your engine, 5499134, would indicate that it was built after the 1968 Pentons that I supplied the numbers from. How long afterward, your guess is as good as mine.
Thanks for presenting such an interesting topic.
Good luck.
Paul
Dan,
On page 2 of Penton parts book 001, check out items 26 and 27, they are the plug and washer for the oil injection hole in the early cast iron Sachs cylinder. I have used the plugged oil injection hole for years as one of the clues as to if an early 68 Penton has the original engine in it.
Paul
Per Pauls discussion on the plug (and washer) on the early Sachs engines for the Pentons is way I use to identify the early engines (too). The engine that was in V001 when it was found was 5389598 which was a replacement engine to keep John's bike fresh for all the races he would enter. It has the same bolt on the intake as Paul has described.
Ron Carbaugh
After reading this I went out to take a look at my 68ST. V-0144 has the oil injection plug on the intake and engine # 5499736.
Dave McCullough
Sorry i did not know the oil-pump thing would start such a stir!!!
RON(and mr throwchain) When i can work out how post photos on to the site i will be more than happy to show you the pump & case
DANE The motoplat system 9600162 that i was trying to fit came off my other wassell 5b and i had ridden with it untill it expired?
PAUL Thanks for all your help and advice, dont know how old it is? but it has a bronze bush in the top of the con rod
Just found out tonight the wassell front pipe dont fit onto the barrel!!!
lastly the motor no:5499134 that we have talking of, has yet to be started from new!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks to you all:)
GARY
Posting pictures?
Posted - 09/20/2009 : 11:24:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Print this out and follow these steps if you do not already have a picture hosting account.
Go to Photobucket.com and click Join Now.
Type in your email address and then choose a password then re-type it and click next.
Fill in your personal information field, security code, and click accept.
Click on Choose Files in the middle RH side of the page.
Choose the location on your computer where your pics are stored.
(I usually download them to my pictures, which is located under My Documents, but you could download them right from your camera if it is connected to your Computer.)
Choose your pic from the file. You may need to click open.
Add Title or description, Optional.
Click return to album...easiest way for me, then put cursor on picture and 4 links will appear.
Left click on the bottom link which starts with (img), then right click on it and select copy.
Open a new tab opr browser window, got to message board and paste the code in your text on a new line for each picture, and post your message and you are finished. Mike
Michael R. Winter
Gary,
It is a pleasure to have you be a part of the Penton Owners Group message board family.
Is the exhaust port on your cylinder oval or rectangular?
The fact that you have a top end bushing leads me to believe that you have an aluminum connecting rod and most likely a cast iron cylinder with a rectangular exhaust port.
Is your bike a Wassell Trials bike like the one in this picture?
http://www.pentonusa.org/GalleryServerPro/default.aspx?moid=180&hr=1
Take care,
Paul
Gary,
If you have the flywheel that will fit to the Sachs engine, then you can use the stator and coil. But the flywheel (9600162) will not fit to the Sachs engines.
Dane
Gary,
No stir...we just enjoy seeing and hearing of things we don't see everyday.
Ron Carbaugh
Gary
This is a very interesting post and thread. I never new Sachs motors had oil injection. Please post some pics
G
72 six-day
79 KTM MC80 250
There is always something new to learn on this informative site! Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Here's the photos [:0] !!!!!!!
(http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/gary125280/DSCN2534.jpg)
(http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/gary125280/DSCN2535.jpg)
(http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae114/gary125280/DSCN2536.jpg)
Hope thay are ok and you can see them ?
Thanks to gordon with photobucket help
Paul thank you for kind welcome message,And yes both my wassell's
look like that(not as shiney YET !),thay both have rectangular ex-port,but the first one has had conversion to the front pipe
DANE thay did say you new your stuff ,and yes you are right !!!!!
dug out my box of bits and found flywheel with right numbers and taper, sorted :)
Thanks to you all again,
GARY
Seeing is beleiving. Must definately be a rare unit. How long did they build these motors with pumps?? and what brands most likely used this set-up?? anyone know?? Was it short lived because of failure issues or was pre-mix just the easier way to go??
Gary,
Great pictures, thank you.
I am curious as to what the serial numbers on your Wassells are? Most all the ones in the states pretty much fall between 200 and 750, would you be kind enough to post yours? They are on the steering head.
Also, have you ever seen a BSA Bantam powered Wassell? From what I have read, the BSA engine was the original power source for the Wassells but the engine supply dried up. I know of several in the states, but they mostly have Sachs power.
Dan,
Sachs was an engine supplier to many brands of motorcycles, both for street use and off road. My guess is that the oil injected engines were used primarily for street use. Over the years I have seen both in print and in person a lot of Sachs powered off road machines and I don't recall any being oil injected, but quite possibly someone somewhere did use it for off road. As far as reliability of the oil pump system, just going on my own experience with Sachs engines I would bet a steak dinner that they were superb.....
Paul
That is neat! I've never seen a side cover or oil injection before. Now I wonder about the tank and does the oil injection cable hook up to the magura dual pull twist grip?
G
72 six-day
79 KTM MC80 250
Never seen a bantam powered wassell (only pictures)
but i have never seen another wassell,full stop !!!!!
never seen another sachs motor in a trials bike,
I do think thay are all a rare this side of the pond
Do have another project in the garage,a saracen frame which in the
late 60's was converted to except a sachs 125 motor
To answer you question, frame numbers are
W 935 ST
W 823 ST
I am riding 823 tomorrow in competition:D (only wassell !)
thanks again
GARY
Gary,
I rode a Sachs powered Saracen for a number of years, does yours have the nickel plated frame? They are an awesome machine. If you can get your hands on the book Classic British Two Stroke Trials Bikes by Don Morley, I think you would enjoy reading the stories on the Saracen and Wassell, as well as the many other unique machines that the book covers.
Thanks for the frame numbers, they help to confirm the serial number range that was brought to the states.
Good luck at the competition, please let us know how you made out. There are a number folks on this site who have lots of knowledge on setting up and riding those Wassells, please feel free to ask any questions that you have.
Are you riding the machine with the oil injected engine? If so are you using it or just pre-mixing your fuel?
Keep your feet up:)
Paul
Hey Guys,
go to Ebay # 320516506859
K80S with oil injection
there you go !!!
regards,
Mike Gallagher, NJ.