Gentleman, This has already been posted on the AHRMA CC forum and the VINDURO.COM Forum so some of you have already seen this. I will be submitting this as a possible rule change at the encouragement of many. I have notice the low turnout at Cross Country events and
how many classes we have for the riders. I feel the motorcycle
classifications are basically fine but we have way too many rider
classifications for rider participation. I propose that we reduce the number of classes and rename the rider classifications. Right now in Cross Country events we are having as few as 60 riders at some events and rarely more than 100. BUT, we have 51 classes !!! Some classes for the 2011 season didn't have any riders and many only had 2 riders. Some only had 1 rider ride more than 1 event. My proposal is to combine some rider classes and reduce the total number of classes to 29. I think we can reclassify riders from Expert to "A" Class and combine Intermediate and Novice to a single "B" class like we had back in the 70's. Some classes only need a single age or bike classification. Don't call them Expert or intermediate. Just refer to them as "A" and "B" for cross country events and leave the Expert, Intermediate, and Novice for MX where there are more riders. Many riders only ride one or two events anyway so I don't think that the new classes will scare them away as
they only want to ride and are not serious competitors. Some
Intermediate riders will probably move themselves to "A" Class because of less riders. It only takes a look at the 2011 results to see what I am talking about. I will list my proposed classes with the number of riders that rode at least 1 event and in ( ) list how many riders actually rode more than 1 event.
Let me know what you think. I think this can only serve to help AHRMA and Clubs so they are not buying trophys for more riders than they need to and now there will be enough riders in a class that when someone wins a championship that they have more than a participation trophy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Premier Class - 8 riders (4)riding more than one event.
Classic A - 6 riders (4)
Classic B - 11 riders (6)
Sportsman 100 A - 6 riders (3)
Sportsman 100 B - 8 riders (3)
Sportsman 200 A - 4 riders (2)
Sportsman 200 B - 10 riders (4)
Sportsman Open A - 13 riders (3)
Sportsman Open B - 16 riders (5)
Vintage +50 A - 12 riders (3)
Vintage +50 B - 18 riders (4)
Vintage +60 A - 10 riders (2)
Vintage +60 B - 11 riders (2)
Vintage +70 - 4 riders (3)
Vintage Women - 4 riders (2)
Historic 200 A - 4 riders (3)
Historic 200 B - 9 riders (3)
Historic Open A - 11 riders (1)
Historic Open B - 23 riders (5)
Post Vintage 200 A - 15 riders (4)
Post Vintage 200 B - 42 riders (12)
Post Vintage Open A - 21 riders (6)
Post Vintage Open B - 44 riders (9)
Post Vintage +50 A - 19 riders (10)
Post Vintage +50 A - 19 riders (10)
Post Vintage +50 B - 41 riders (13)
Post Vintage +60 A - 8 riders (4)
Post Vintage +60 B - 24 riders (11)
Post Vintage +70 - 13 riders (7)
Post Vintage Women - 4 (2)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Total of 29 classes down from the current 51 classes. Much more
realistic Classifications. All classes should have at least 2 active riders at each event and at least 4 during the year. In Vintage there will be only 2 -5 riders that will ride more than 1 event. In Post Vintage there will be 1 to 13 riders that will ride more than 1 event. Remember some "B" riders will move to "A" classes because there will be fewer riders in that class.
Let me know what you think. I think this can only help AHRMA events.
Dwight
I haven't been a season-long AHRMA competitor since 2009 but was for the six years prior and am a founding member of a former AHRMA CC promoting club so here's my $0.02 worth.
As a promoter a major goal is to provide a memorable and enjoyable course that competitors feel they've not wasted travel expenses in getting to. What makes this difficult is the range of rider skill present combined with the differing capabilities of the classic bikes compared to the PV bikes. Our club for several years had separate Vintage and PV courses and later in our tenure AHRMA separated the Novice classes out in a separate race. This combination did allow for the potential of having appropriate courses for the varying bikes/skills present. It did make for a lot of work on the promoter's part (we even had different courses for Vintage and PV on Saturday and Sunday) but I felt it was worth it to give the competitor's their money's worth.
To avoid such massive course lay-out work I offer up this possibility: utilizing Mr. Rudder's idea of class consolidation into A and B ; the B riders ride a separate race on a shortened less challenging portion of the A rider course.
There would be four events per day making for a fuller weekend and the additional course layout required would be minimal making life easier on the promoter. PV expert riders would not be riding the same event with slower riders making the racing more enjoyable and safer for both parties.
This same philosophy is being utilized in the GNCC series successfully.
Dwight,
This subject is almost as frightening as taking a poll as to "which oil to use".
I don't know about others; but I'm all about the competition, it's what makes this fun! Nothing like someone on your tail to make you work a little harder & to make the win a little sweeter. It's possible that this class structure may have been partially motivated by today's belief that "everybody wins something"; a belief that I can't stand. Just go to any Pee-Wee race and see the irate mom's and dad's if every kid doesn't come away with a little piece of plastic or wood.:(
I agree with your concern but I have seen endless discussions on this in other venues. AHRMA is about racing, and when you have almost no competition; that ain't racing. In fact, as it stands it's almost a joke to win some classes. Heck, if no one is in your class that day, why don't you just have the promoter give you your award/points and let you load up and go home without putting a tire to the track? I've actually had that happen in modern bike races.
Streamlining the classes should trickle down to streamlining the race day. It will also have a positive side effect of saving money for the promoters by reducing the trophies required.
I say go for it Dwight!
Pete Petrick
175 Jackpiner
Slow but Good
Run all of us at one time. Just like the old days. A and B. Nothing like getting roosted by a big bore..:D:D
I'm no longer riding - sooo my opinion means little.
But if you are going to consider changing classes why not simply add the age of the bike with the age of the rider and have appropriate classes based on the combined age?
Ie: 1970 bike plus 1960 rider 42 + 52= 94.
Classes could be simply:
A 85-95
B 85-95
Etc.
I believe somthing similar to that is used in Europe.
Other than that everything that Dwight is saying makes perfect sense.
The thought of a "novice" class in vintage racing just never added up to me.
I mean - how many people into old dirt bikes have never ridden before.....
_____________________________________________________________________________________
"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing."
1972 Penton Berkshire 100
1983 Husqvarna 250 XC
2011 Jayco 31.5 RLDS
2009 Chevy 2500 HD Duramax
In Europe they add bikes age and riders age and that is the handicap for the rider. In Europe Burchard Lenz usually rides a 1956 Maico 250. He wins Overall most of the time. So that system isn't perfect either. I also don't think they break it down more.
Dwight has the right idea, we dont need to touch the bike breakdowns we just need to split the rider less by skill.
Brian
Another unsolicited opinion.
After several readings, I find three issues presented. 1) Low turnout in Cross Country. 2) Too many classes. 3) Cost of buying too many trophies.
I also see one proposed resolution - Fewer classes by consolidating some classes and eliminating the Novice category.
Good documentation is presented on the number of riders and the number of classes.
However, my opinion is that the cause and effect presented here does not give either a complete analysis or a realistic solution.
First, I agree that we probably have too many classes. Second, I agree that we have less rider turnout than desired. Third, I challenge the opinon that the cost of trophies is a burden on promoters. If it is, then maybe we could charge $3 more if you want to receive a trophy.
I do submit that the cost borne by promoters and the minimum competition in numerous classes has a single underlying cause - low rider turnout. Bring in more riders, the other two issues are resolved.
Subjectively, I submit that the reasons for low turnout are many fold: The economy, health issues, job conflicts, too far away, family conflicts, previous personal commitments, other activity conflicts, type of events, schedule of event, weather, etc.
Regrettably, I have read on this forum of way too many of us having health issues as we age. There was a recent thread about how to reduce the cost of travel. Several forums have mentioned riders having choose between events becuse of back-to-back weekend cometitions.
I for one would like to hear the reasons many of you have stopped participating or only make a few select events. This is the kind of information AHRMA needs.
As for consolidating classes, I have a single objection to Dwight's proposal - and that is the elimination of the Novice class. (And yes, I am a Novice rider and my bias is showing.) I agree that the class is misnamed, but if you believe that moving all Novice riders to a "B" class will increase the number of particiapnts, particularly we marginally skilled riders, then I submit that you are out of touch with what motivates Novice rides to enter and ride these Cross Country events.
My experience regarding riders voluntarily moving themselves up a class is that this just doesn't happen. On the average, only a couple of riders a year move themselves up, and this is generally riders that are new to AHRMA and automatically start as an Intermediate. Conversely, about 3 times this number petition to move down a skill level. (I know of 3 so far this year.)
So, I ask this questions of the readers of this forum: Would you particiapte in more events if we had fewer classes and just "A" and "B" skill levels?
Dwight, you attend about 1/3 of the AHRMA CC events each year. Is your limited participation due to "too many classes" or something else?
Derek, you stated that you are no longer a season long competitor. Is this because of "too many classes", having Novice riders on the course, or something else? And by the way, many thnaks for all your work over the years in putting on some terrific events!
Pete, the record shows you particiapte in several events each year. Wuld you be coming to ore if we had fewer classes? And are you going to voluntarily move yourself to "A" if we elimate the Novice category?
Gary, we don't see you enough. Would you come more often if we had fewer classes? I would also expand on your suggestion and suggets we try an old time "run what you brung" event. No "A" or "B", just AHRMA legal bikes.
SouthRider, are you no longer competing becaause of "too may classes," or is here another reason you are no longer riding?
And Brian, who is as fierce a competitor as we have and will ride any bike (as long as it is a left side shift) is your limted participation due to "too many classe" (or is becuse of idiot Novices like myself and your uncle?)
Folks, I am not trying to stir up a controversy, but Dwight is absolutely correct in that have a low ride turnout in AHRMA cross country. We need to find out "WHY" in order to make an informed change in the program.
What not try some differnt formats. How about a winter race? The European handicap format sounds like a fun concept to try. Why not 90 minute or two hour runs? What about one of several "team" concepts? You got us thinking Dwight. Let's hear some more suggestions.
We POG members are the proud sponsors of this series. Bring forth your ideas to make it better.
Respectfully
Bill Ryburn
For me, it's all about finances. Haven't had a raise in 3 years but the cost of living goes up for EVERYTHING.
Mick
Bill, You just can't have more classes than riders. Look at the participation turnout. Pitiful. Will having more classes bring out more riders ? No, it won't. The B class has always been the "NOVICE" class. There are no true beginner riders riding Vintage. Do you think it would be better to eliminate bike classes and keep the 3 rider class breakdowns ? I sure don't. I think AHRMA has done a pretty good job on that. Not perfect but good. I think that having only 1 rider in a class or only 1 rider who rides more than 1 race is terrible. I don't think in those cases that combining Intermediate and Novice to "B" will hurt anything and actually make getting a trophy mean something. (what the Hell is "Intermediate" anyway ?) I don't think that you go to these events just to get a trophy. If that was the case, I think you would let us know and we could bring trophies to give out before the event begins. (Just being silly here)
They might think about giving finisher ribbons to everyone who finishes like they used to do. That would be cheap and give everyone who rides something to remember the event by. Yes, I know that turnout is down for the reasons you stated but keeping too many classes sure hasn't helped and there were too many classes even when we got 100 or even 150 riders. Nat'l Enduros don't even have but about 23 classes and that is with 500-600 or more riders. I don't thin having fewer classes will hurt either.
As for questioning me on my Vintage bike participation. I still compete in the SERA Enduro and H/S series (my wife is SERA Sec/Tres for past 6 years). I am also an active competitor in the National Enduro series. I have had some major physical setbacks the past 10 years but I still try. I just am not capable of going as fast as I used to. I have had major balance and cordination issues the past year. BUT, I havent' given up. I try to ride as many Vintage events as I can. These are actually play riding to me. I get to pretend I am 18 years old again buy dressing up and riding the old bikes. I still like to win but I am there for the fun of hanging with the likes of you and others here. Hey anyone can think of a better solution for making CC events more viable please chime in. But I think we would have to have 10 times the particapation we have now to even think we needed 51 classes. I have had several even say we need fewer than the 29 I have suggested. Like making the age classes just one class not 2 each. BUT, I personally think that wouldn't help. Maybe those who only ride 1 event a year might just try to ride 2 or 3 just so we can see you more often. We are not asking you to ride 80% of the events. Just a few.
I don't remember what the class structure was in the early '70's for CC events but perhalps it would work here.
Anyway, to answer your questions:
Q.) Pete, the record shows you particiapte in several events each year. Would you be coming to more if we had fewer classes?
Probably not. Although I agree that there are too many classes, that issue does not impact how many events I'll be attending. My motivations for attending events are:
Location
Quality of the event
Camaraderie
Thrills per Buck Ratio (I like 2 Day events) or events that combine MX and CC.
Much of this motivation is predicated on dollars availabile. More money, more riding.
Right now I'm planning on attending these events:
Diamond Dons National (Location, Quality & combined events)
ISDT Qualifiers I and II (Camaraderie, Location, 2 Day event)
ISDT Reunion Ride (Camaraderie, Quality, Location, 2 Day event)
Unadilla (Quality & combined events)
Team Red Bull (Location, Quality & combined events)
Q.)And are you going to voluntarily move yourself to "A" if we elimate the Novice category?
A.) In a heartbeat.
Pete Petrick
175 Jackpiner
Slow but Good
I think this is so silly to think changing a few classes will change rider turn out. If AHRMA wanted a bigger turn out they would do something about it. "How" you ask? First you have to quit thinking vintage some how stops at a certain year. Why does vintage racing or pv racing stop at 1983? If you buy a vintage plate for an old car or truck it has to be 30-35 years old. So that means the vintage year goes up every year. Try going to a modern hare scramble race on a 1993 Kdx 200 and see the look on peoples faces, they look at you like, "Where in the hell you get that old thing." If AHRMA wants to grow they have to attract new people. Why not have three races per day? Vintage at 9am, PV at 11am, Pre-moderm at 1pm. (Pre- Modern clas: 1984- 20 years old). That how you grow!! New people come to race pre-modern, and see the vintage bikes and think, I want one like that!! How else can we get more riders? PROMOTE the races!!! If you want to see how to promote a race look how White Lightning promoted thier race. That how you promote a race!! AHRMA does nothing to promote thier races nor does 90% of the promoters. Look at DD's, they do a great job, Road America does nothing. ISDT does nothing!! The only way I see ever getting AHRMA to grow is to get rid of some of the people running things and get some NEW thinking going on!!
This topic is not about growing AHRMA, it's about reducing classes. And I for what it's worth, I don't think that reducing the number of classes will necessarily hurt AHRMA membership. Might even help it.I don't understand why some people always have to connect growth as being better. There is a finite amount you can grow before you start getting diminishing returns.
And finally, I'm tired of hearing people complaining about AHRMA (or any other organization for that matter) without getting involved. People have been _iching about AHRMA forever. No, it's not a perfect animal but nothing is to all people. The biggest whiners stomp off mad and start their own little niche series. And guess what? AHRMA is still the biggest vintage series.
Is being the biggest means being the best? Probably not, but I just come to enjoy the ride.
Pete Petrick
175 Jackpiner
Slow but Good
You want to grow the sport? BE OPEN TO CHANGE.
First, let the kids ride! Don't turn them away when they ask to ride.
Example- My brother restored his childhood,77 yz 80 and wanted his son to ride in the se ahrma events with him. Was told no. Economy is tough, so you have to choose which events to attend. So what happens, he will go to an event that will allow a class for his son and him to participate.
Secondly, in addition to kids, add other support classes. Time moves on and everything gets older. I remember riding the Vintage class at the Alligator enduro on Bultacos and Pentons in the 80's. Those bikes were only 15 years old at the time! Right now, I would love to have an event to bring out my 89 KTM 350 2-stoke. It's 23 years old!
I promote a national enduro and a setra hs every year so I fully understand expenses and insurance issues. A few years back the National Enduro series was weak, to say the least. The format was restructured to attract a wider audience. At first I didn't like some of the changes, but this year our race sold out this year in THREE HOURS!
You can honor, appreciate and ride the bikes we think of as Vintage, but be open to change. And while you are at it, maybe cut the rule book in half.
Folks,
You can forget about AHRMA allowing kids, aint gonna happen. EVER. I started racing enduros on a Honda XL80S, full length 100 mile enduros at 11 years old, yet I was told by an AHRMA Trustee several years ago that "Kids didnt race back then". Really? What exactly was it I was doing then?
Bill,
I completely understand your point, and you are correct, my absence has had nothing to do with AHRMA having a Novice class.
Brian
Not trying to steal Dwight's tread, but the issue is increasing the low attend, and reducing the number of classes the solution. Do I think there are too many classes, sure there are. Do I think it will increase attendance? Probably not. Some will come to finally have some competition, while others will not come because they can't beat someone else.
The sport can benefit tremendously from class restructuring, but include newer bikes. There needs to be a threshold of 15-20 years of age, and each year more bikes will qualify and classes added. If the guy has a 15 year old bike and rides an event, he will soon have a 30 year old bike and ride multiple classes and vintage, as we know it, grows.
I'm 49 now and had bikes in the 70's. A 39 year old began riding in the 80's and don't realize he needs a Mint 400, YET!
Hey, I still come to the races even though I can't beat anybody. Who cares? I am in the Novice class and will gladly move myself up when I actually beat someone and it isn't because they DNF'd. ;) I have a great time and like the old bikes/old people. With kids/commitments/job, making the 3 ISDT/Qualifier type events every year is about all I can manage at this point in my life. I still dream of the day I can go to as many as you guys do!! Hope to see you at Meridian. :D
Mike H.
Vintage racing should not be about winning or losing, its irrelevant, it should be about FUN on old bikes.
Brian
The point here is the sillyness of having more classes than riders. More riders will attend as the economy improves. The A & B classes were how we did it back in the 70s. Sometimes just a run what you brung situation with no rider skill separation. I wouldn't personally be against having a kids spec class. Maybe taking the age limit down to 14 for big bikes ? Younger kid ride a Chinese made SL70. That way they are riding replica bikes and not originals. IMO. Lesser classes will improve appearances and add to prestige of the events. Make competition better. I don't think it in itself with bring more or cause us to lose riders. It will help with the CC and ISDT type team events. Even MX should look at this but I don't ride enough MX to make that recommendation. I just know when I do ride MX that there are as many as 3-4 classes lined up on the starting line at the same time. That is crazy if the classes are that small.
Maybe down the road we can have a Pre Modern class. But the main reason not to enclude these bikes is that they are competitive even against current bikes. They may be beat up looking but they are mechanically designed sound and can give a new 2012 bike a run for it's money. It can win with a good rider aboard. It is coming but that is the reason we don't now. I can take any year XR200R Honda and give the modern bikes a run. I have won my class in H/S on one and even have gotten the holeshot. My class is 45+A. I think we are getting OT here but my proposal is to improve the quality of the events and not meant to hurt anyone.
In response to Bill; the world seems to be spinning faster starting 2009 - work demands, etc. limiting time available for AHRMA event participation in my case but I'm going to try to make it to all the ISDT inspired events at a minimum this year. Thanks for your comment on Little Egypt's past events.
Furthering the topic; I'd venture a guess that anything done to increase the competiveness of the AHRMA CC series would improve attendance as it seemed to be a little more competitive in my earlier years of AHRMA participation and event entry numbers were higher then if my feeble memory serves. The series also was centered in the Midwest then which may or may not have been a factor.
I think Bill Ryburn offered up a good idea to increase the race time length to 90 minutes. This would work better with longer courses which in my mind's eye a quality longer course increases the rider's perception of getting his money's worth, would allow a promoter to have the shorter B rider course as mentioned earlier and a long course can more readily be shortened or rerouted in the event of heavy rain possibly saving an event.
Agree with that thought for sure. 1hr CC / H/S type events is too little. 90 min Plus a lap would be the way to go.
Although I am a woods guy and think that trails can't be too tight, and would welcome a longer race, I respectfully disagree with running 1 1/2 - 2 hours would benefit the association as a whole. I was at the SE Ahrma CC yesterday and Bill and my dad (72 years old), among others, were exhausted after the one hour. They couldn't have safely ridden another 30 min and surely not another hour. Riders and bikes are not new. Most aren't as physically fit as they once were and when you force yourself to ride longer, your chance for injury goes up tremendously.
Quotequote:Originally posted by Tim Brown
Although I am a woods guy and think that trails can't be too tight, and would welcome a longer race, I respectfully disagree with running 1 1/2 - 2 hours would benefit the association as a whole. I was at the SE Ahrma CC yesterday and Bill and my dad (72 years old), among others, were exhausted after the one hour. They couldn't have safely ridden another 30 min and surely not another hour. Riders and bikes are not new. Most aren't as physically fit as they once were and when you force yourself to ride longer, your chance for injury goes up tremendously.
There is no reason why if the races were longer that the 60+ and 70+ classes couldn't be stopped at one Hour while the rest ride 90min + 1 lap. Modern races are 2hrs plus a lap. (typically). Sometimes conditions require shorter races. Rain or very wet conditions. Or extremely hot conditions for example.
My only comment(s) regarding the longer races are these: 1) at the AHRMA national XC rounds, I like the one hour format because I usually do one race (vintage) in the AM and another in the afternoon (PV); 2) when a regional format has a XC race combined with MX on the same day, limiting the XC race to one hour helps ME make it to the end of the day. BTW - I have huge respect for modern XC (2 hours)and hope to race in a few of those in the future after I can kill the current Honey Needs List ($$) and buy a modern mount. As far the GNCC racers that SPRINT on Sunday afternoon for 3 hours - that stuff is like Chariots of the Gods to me. Wow. Only ran a few of those (national HS) back in the day - I was not worthy! Hat's off to you Poggers that are still doing that.
Regarding Mr. Rudder's class structure proposal - makes sense to me. I think Novice has a place in our MX racing, not so sure the case can be made for XC.
Good comments. The 90 minute or 2 hour format was just a suggestion. Obviously, any change will have both supporters and critics. Just as any change will have pros and cons.
In addition to being very physically demanding for those that ride both Vintage and PV cross country on the same day, and for those of us out of shape and old, it will also present a fuel problem for some bikes.
Tim was right it that I am tired after 1 hour. However, if I were riding a longer event (and I have), I pace myself differently. I have also been known to pull off when I was starting to make mistakes. We can all make these type of adjustments.
I am not proposing that we change the cross country format to 90 minute events, but to think about trying it once and see what the participants think.
I also have been thinking more about the European handicap system. I understand that you add the age of the rider and the bike, but how do you apply this handicap? I think I like the idea. Our Age Class system is nothing more than a handicap system, but treats a 59 year old the same as a 50 year old. Why? Our Age Class system also tends to promote Sportsman/Ultima class bikes. Unless I am missing something, the European handicap system, while imperfect, appears better than our Age Class system. Eliminating age classes would really redcue the number of classes we have. (This system will probably not be endorsed by those 35-40 year olds ridiing 15 year old XR200s.)
Bill Ryburn
Here is another look at poor turnout. POOR advertising. Why doesn't someone have a single site where all vintage events are listed for the whole country. I know AHRMA has their site but I also know of lots of vintage classes running at local events that I only read about a few days ahead or days after the event was held. Some peoples' personal schedule changes at the last minute and it would be nice to go to a "vintage event calendar" and see what's coming up that weekend without having to search the whole internet. Just an idea.
Ted Atkinson
Well, I heard from Dave Lambreth and he says the rules committee didn't think much of my recommendation on classes. Sad because we have events that bearly has 50 riders and 51 classes. I guess they probably didn't even read the whole thing. Sad because I don't want the 2Day series to end and I have heard a couple riders say that they aren't interested in competing next year if the rules aren't changed so now we will lose more riders. Too many it seems are more interested in being the only rider in their class rather than the success of the series. I am afraid it will die as it stands. Maybe POG and Vinturo need to go together and form a Vintage Enduro Association and have our own events. It couldn't have fewer riders, IMO.
I have been rolling this over in my head for a long time, and after talking to Bill about it, I have changed my mind and decided the classes are not the problem, low turnout is the problem. I do think there are too many classes, but I believe this is a completely separate issue that really has nothing to do with turnout. If we address the issue of low turnout, the too many classes problem goes away.
Brian
Quotequote:Originally posted by brian kirby
I have been rolling this over in my head for a long time, and after talking to Bill about it, I have changed my mind and decided the classes are not the problem, low turnout is the problem. I do think there are too many classes, but I believe this is a completely separate issue that really has nothing to do with turnout. If we address the issue of low turnout, the too many classes problem goes away.
Brian
Oh, I don't totally disagree but right now nobody takes us seriously because we have more classes than riders. I think both have to be addressed. Even as I had proposed we would have had 29 classes. Which is more than most enduros have. I think SERA has 24 classes. NEPG Nationals have 23 classes. SETRA has 28 Classes (too many IMO).
There is no need for C/Beginner classes in VINTAGE racing. That is what the B class is for (intermediate). My proposal would mean there is still classes for every era bike without forcing them in to competeing with more modern style bikes. Anyway , it isn't going to happen. But, it doesn't seem that anyone else has offered any other ideas.
We also have to remember that it will be diffecult to greatly increase participation when the riders are getting older as are the bikes. Not everyone likes old bikes like we do.
$4 a gallon at the pump doesn't help, either.
Mick
Quotequote:Originally posted by Mick Milakovic
$4 a gallon at the pump doesn't help, either.
Mick
Your right but with 3 2-Day events a year, it shouldn't be a huge hinderance. The National Enduros are getting 450-600+ riders at every event. I think we should get 100 per event but we don't. I have heard some think the current rules and classes are a joke and that is why they don't particapate in more events. It is very sad that we have more classes than riders. Makes the team scoring a joke too.
Further on the cost thing: To go to South Carolina it would cost me $300 in gas with my dodge pickup hauling 4 bikes (vintage and post vintage for me and my son). Two races per day per racer = $400 in entry fees. Gate fees are usually 25 bucks a head for the weekend. If we camp and eat out of the cooler add another $60-80 for food. If we don't buy any T-shirts or souveniers, don't break down and don't get hurt, it's a minimum of $850 per weekend. I know I could save money by only racing one class, but that's a long way to drive for 60 minutes of racing.
Conversely, there's a local promotor who does 60-minute GPs here in Indiana for $25, with no AMA license required, and I can run three races per day. My cost for a day of racing is usually around $200 for me and my son to ride 4 classes, gas, gate, and food.
I support AHRMA, and the AMA, but traveling so far and spending so much is hard to justify. It's not the number of classes, it's not the lack of advertising, and not a lack of competition. I think for most it's a matter of finances. When I started doing this 10 years ago gas was only $1.50 a gallon and AHRMA entries were $35.
I'm not argueing the advantages of fewer classes, better competition and an earned championship rather than one just "purchased"; those are valid points. I'm just sayting the drop in attendance is more economic.
Mick
I'm with you Mick. I ran about 5 races this year from Diamond Don's to Big Sky Ranch WV. I'll finish with Barber. Being from Indianapolis it's very expensive. It was my first year of AHRMA and I really enjoy it though. I've got 3 small boys and a wife that have all got the dirtbike bug so they will probably start traveling much more next year with me. I can see the $$ adding up. That's not even including bike service which I'm going to need a lot of. Time for a second job and a nice used RV! There is just no cheap way to travel the country and race vintage dirtbikes. It's not like we have sponsors or anything.
74 250 Hare scramble
68 Six Day
Sounds like you are both from Indianapolis, so you should consider car, (truck)-pooling & sharing traveling expenses. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
Mike, I agree, that's the way to go. It's hard, though, unless you travel with someone who has a LARGE trailer to take all the bikes and gear. When Jarrin graduates and is on his own it wil be easier, but then I'll lose my best friend to go to the races!
Mick
My main concern is the enduro series. Although my rule suggestion would effect the whole cross country series. AMA is not require. The Enduro series is only one race per day not 2. Camp out save money. My concern is having too many classes is not being addressed. 51 classes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The only way to whittle them down is to compress the rider classifications. Why do we have 3 rider classifications ? We should have 2 in most classes . A & B. like we did in the 70s. There are no beginners here. All Novice riders should ride "B" Class. Many of the Intermeditate riders should move to "A" Class. I just reupped with AHRMA and they classified ME as Intermediate for Cross Country. Me a Enduro A rider and former AA rider and ISDT / ISDE medalist. BUT, They have me classified as Expert MX and PVMX. What is that about. I have only raced maybe 8 MX events EVER. and 2 of those were Vintage. LOL. Anyway without major changes AHRMA is going to continue to lose riders. I think the bike classifications for the most part are good. So we can only reduce the amount of Rider Classifications to reduce the number of classes. I just looked at the New Blaine event. Great riding there by the way. BUT they only have 33 preentries and 51 classes. Some classes don't even have riders. 13 only have 1 rider. A few more have only 2-3 riders. Sad. So Very sad.
Quotequote:Originally posted by seanguthrie
I'm with you Mick. I ran about 5 races this year from Diamond Don's to Big Sky Ranch WV. I'll finish with Barber. Being from Indianapolis it's very expensive. It was my first year of AHRMA and I really enjoy it though. I've got 3 small boys and a wife that have all got the dirtbike bug so they will probably start traveling much more next year with me. I can see the $$ adding up. That's not even including bike service which I'm going to need a lot of. Time for a second job and a nice used RV! There is just no cheap way to travel the country and race vintage dirtbikes. It's not like we have sponsors or anything.
74 250 Hare scramble
68 Six Day
You aren't going to the New Blaine and Tulsa events ? Not that far from Indy. Each day counts as an event. Camp out. Adds to the fun and saves money. Keeps the kids out of trouble and makes for good influence on them.
Seems the powers that be don't like reducing the rider classifications but I haven't seen any counter suggestions to improve the events. It won't make everyone happy but I think more will like the changes than won't. I am open for suggestions even to the point of starting another Vintage Enduro and Hare Scrambles Circuit with the object of a national championship series that includes the ISDT Reunion ride.
Quotequote:Originally posted by Dwight Rudder
Quotequote:Originally posted by seanguthrie
I'm with you Mick. I ran about 5 races this year from Diamond Don's to Big Sky Ranch WV. I'll finish with Barber. Being from Indianapolis it's very expensive. It was my first year of AHRMA and I really enjoy it though. I've got 3 small boys and a wife that have all got the dirtbike bug so they will probably start traveling much more next year with me. I can see the $$ adding up. That's not even including bike service which I'm going to need a lot of. Time for a second job and a nice used RV! There is just no cheap way to travel the country and race vintage dirtbikes. It's not like we have sponsors or anything.
74 250 Hare scramble
68 Six Day
You aren't going to the New Blaine and Tulsa events ? Not that far from Indy. Each day counts as an event. Camp out. Adds to the fun and saves money. Keeps the kids out of trouble and makes for good influence on them.
I didn't make it this year. I plan my race schedule around family and work. I did Gatorback, DD, WV, Athens, Budd's Creek (only because work had me spending the following week in DC) and EZ-Jims so far this season. I was traveling with a buddy and his dad from Indy. The old man he's 67 broke his back a few weeks ago. He's ok now and up and moving around, but has been told by the boss (wife) his racing days are over. Knowing him I don't think he'll except that. All he has been talking about this season is makeing it to the 70+ class. I know his son is very concerned about him and we talked about him getting back on a bike the other night. I know some old racers will never hang it up even when it starts to get in the way of a healthy life. I myself can say I could never hang my boots and jersey in the garage but I'm 36 and very healthy. Maybe check back in another 30 years.
74 250 Hare scramble
68 Six Day
Sean,
I have tried several times to reply to your email, both from my phone and computer, and each time it is returned as undeliverable and blocked. **My mistake, when I manually typed it into my phone I had it .com instead of .org, Duh...Mike Winter
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R