Greetings all,
V416 is a standard bore iron cyl. 1251-5A. I'm searching for a 54.5 piston kit and have the Sachs P/N. Past posts from back around '09 says that the Wisco # would be 162P2. 'Just a sanity check on that Wiseco #. Is that correct for a 54.5 (.020) Wiseco?
Our suppliers are out of them so it's off to Ebay land and I'd hate to make a mistake there. Thanks in advance..., Fred
V416 OneMoreTime
Fred, I think a Wiseco 162 is for a 100cc eng and not a 125. Nelson McCullough
Whenever I select a new piston, I always keep in mind the availability of piston rings for later service. Also, when buying a piston, check to be sure if the wrist pin and circlips are included, unless you already have these parts. joe
Wiseco 168 is for Penton Sachs
Is AL B out of both 54.25 mm and 54.5mm?
Thanks you guys! 'Good thing I checked. I see the 162 series is for the 100. I missed that. And I will need the pin and fresh rings too. I'm going to check into the 168 Wiseco # but in the meantime I'm reading some disturbing things about Wiseco's seizing. That, I do not need! This is the first this engine's ever been down since '68 and if it weren't for the .006 skirt clearance it could go right back in there.
The Sachs piston (erring on the side of caution) might be the sensible thing for my purposes. I'd like to know all your collective thoughts on that one.
Al's out of 54.5's, so's Terry Everett, Jake Fischer might have one (call back in a week), and I have an email out to GenuineNOS as we speak, and of course the Ebay search. I have everything else needed sitting here in a box except a piston kit.
Your once proud owner of a complete first year production S/T survivor is right about now wishing he was the proud owner of a '69 or later. My fault. I guess I've owned and/or been in touch with this bike for so long I took it for granted that time was standing still for us both. Yet another strategic error! [B)] Sheeesh..., Fred
V416 OneMoreTime
Fred, Have you considered replacing the piston with a new Std. bore one for "fit" before you decide to bore the cylinder? Maybe the piston skirt is worn a few thousandths of an inch (and they do wear....). Other POG members chime in here, but I think the piston to wall clearance should be honed to about 1 1/2 to 2 thousandths of an inch for the 100cc Sachs. I would assume the 125cc Sachs might be closer to 2. Brian, Doug, Jerry, Kip, and others, please help us out here! joe
You could send the piston to Swaintech and have it coated, adios, Tom Brosius
Joe and Tom, thanks for that info. As yet I've heard nothing back from Genuinenos and I'll should be getting a yeah or nay from Jake this wkend. Those failing I just may have to go to Swaintech (never heard of them by the way). It also occurred to me that we used to knurl piston skirts back in machine shop days and that fixture may still be kicking around. 'Serves the same purpose on mildly worn pistons. I'll be checking into both. I need to go recheck the cyl. to see how much if any taper is in the bore. Thanks again for the glimmer of hope! Fred
V416 OneMoreTime
Fred,
I used the Swaincoat method on the piston of my 68 steeltanker V0144 to keep the bike on its original standard bore. It worked just fine but only did this because the bike was not going to be raced. If you are only going be using your bike like I do as a pit cruiser then in my opinion its the way to proceed. Keep us posted on what you decide.
Dave McCullough
http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/
Dave, Thanks. I did check into swaintech's site and it looks like a promising alternative to a new bore. They talk about a heavy PC-9 skirt coating (up to .004)which would be sufficient, but also state that this needs to be 'polished' afterward by the customer. I'd need to know a bit more about this process and will if I do go this route.
I did check my bore today but since my inside mic set is missing the one adapter I need for this bore I had to do with a cursory check with a vernier caliper which shows only .001" between the clean bore (above the rings) and the bottom of the skirt. 'Nice, except I still need to find the wear below the slight ridge before I can consider only skirt/wall clearance as my primary problem. That, and waiting for that one last check about a fresh piston has me on hold for the nest couple of days.
While it will never be raced it will get at least some judicious thrashing while I try to relive my youth. From there, when I'm 'toes up' it goes to my son who loves the thing and knows it's whole history (he's also an excellent wrench). 'Point being, I want it as right/original/dependable as I can possibly get it before I kick off[8D]
Thanks again for the first hand info. on the Swaintech approach. It's that type of input I'm looking for as I explore the limited options. Cheers.., Fred
V416 OneMoreTime
Fred,
I have never used a Wiseco piston on anything, but have heard that the red boxed Wiseco were better for the Sachs engines than the bule/green boxed pistons.
Donny Smith
Paragould, AR
Donny, I came across that recently myself somewhere. I was already getting a bit leery of the whole Wiseco thing based on comments found while searching for a solution for my own problem. The 'heads up' is very much appreciated.
If it comes to pass that I do need to replace my piston I think I will do my best to hold out for the Sachs.
As a side note, I just recently talked to a very respected and talented guy on the topic of the Wiseco's and his approach re: the seizing issues was that:
A: increase the clearance past Wisco's number.
B: Heat and cool the new piston several times (450 deg. F) before installing.
C: Always warm the engine completely before putting it under load.
These things being related to the differences in the molecular structure of a forged piston vs cast in a 2 stroke air cooled application.
'Just food for thought, 'not championing a cause.
Again, thanks for the input on my own dilemma.., Fred
V416 OneMoreTime
Fred,
As far as using the Wiseco it is fine if you aren't going to race it and if you are going to race it and it is cast just make the bore larger that you would for a forged piston. That is what I have been doing since the 70's and it has worked for me. No Rocket Science here.
Ron Carbaugh
Thanks Ron, understood. 'Old automotive machinists line (never actually put into practice and certainly not said in front of customers)
"It'll run longer loose than it will tight" :D
V416 OneMoreTime
Fred,
I remember the saying.....as far as the Wiseco, I have had to build engines with them and I have just drilled a oil(ing) hole on the exhaust side if the exhaust port had a bridge and sometimes I drilled two if they didn't have bridge. The thing about the oil today it is so much better than what we had way back when that if you break the engine in properly and run good gas and oil you shouldn't have any problems. But I salute you for being careful and thorough. It is nice to see and hear in this day of throw engines and together and pray for the best?
Ron Carbaugh
Take uncle Wan,s advice, do drill a small hole in the piston to cover the bridge, did mine 2mm below the bottom ring....adios, Tom Brosius
Ron, thanks for the pat on the head. It's appreciated. The nit picking stuff does wear a body down but it's bloody well better than having to redo everything after the hand grenade goes off.
I'm liking the idea of the Oil hole too.
And, since you'd mentioned the quality of the new oils etc. That got me wondering if the full or semi-synthetics are of any use (after break in) in the old Sachs engines. I gave semi synthetic a try in my '68 Flatside shovel Harley and the thing had blood running out of it's eye sockets in short order but that's a crudely engineered thing compared to the Sachs. Just curious on that one. Collective thoughts? Fred
V416 OneMoreTime
Fred,
Well since you opened up the can of worms (the subject of oil), I will tell you I use a full synthetic because I have used Mobil one in all my vehicles since it came out (I worked for Mobil Oil for 10 years and know a lot of the old Engineers). The oil I use for all my two stroke engines is Stihl chain saw oil. You can buy it in small bottles that mox for one gallon of gas....and since the gas we have today is so poor I rarely mix more that a gallon or two at a time unless I am mixing racing gas/and or fuel. People can argue till the cows come home, but just ask Lumberjacks that run these saws all day long at 10.000 RPMs and how few of oiling failures they have? Fred, have fun with your Sachs and as far as your Harley I still run 30 WT High Detergent in the one I keep up for a Friend for the same reason.....and I just am not going to rebuild another Harley!
Ron Carbaugh
Back in 68 or 69, Mike Lewis Honda, (now Lewis KTM, Lawton OK) started selling a product called Polyoxide Oil. It was in a clear plastic 1qt bottle and was bright red in color. The people that worked there swore by it. It was a 100% synthetic oil. They talked me into trying it and I will tell you that you could pull the head after 6 or 8 races and just wipe the head and top of the piston completely clean with one swipe. Have only used synthetic ever since.
Donny Smith
Paragould, AR
I'm actually a big fan of synthetics myself. 'Just thought I'd do a sanity check on the Sachs application. You never know what some old motors like and don't like. I've had two old tractors that had leather seals in the motors and needed non-det. oil only. I rebuilt a straight eight Packard about 5 yrs. ago and it uses wooden wedges for the rear main seal so that one gets plain old straight 30W. The Overdrive unit in that car must have strictly mineral based oil or it'll wipe out the bushings in the unit. Stuff like that keeps you leery about lubricants for vintage stuff. 'Cheaper to ask than to experiment.:D
V416 OneMoreTime
Jake (Fischer Competition Cycle) came thru with a 54.5 Mahle complete piston kit so I'm finally off the hook re: the missing piston problem (Oh Happy Day)! He has other over sizes in stock too. Another good guy to deal with from the suppliers list.
Way back in '91 when I first got V416 back I'd ordered some parts from him including a shift key. He sent me an extra one with instructions on the invoice that said I should "sleep with it". I still have that extra OEM key. [8D]
I'll no doubt have a question or two about the piston oil hole size etc. when I get everything back from the machine shop. In the meantime sincere thanks again for everyone's prior inputs. Cheers, Fred
V416 OneMoreTime
Fred,
Jake is the best and was one of the Best Riders of all times in my Book. He is a walking encyclopedia of knowledge and a Great Person. He did the same for me with a shift key when we couldn't find them.....I have never forgot the Favor.
Ron Carbaugh
Jake (Fischer Competition Cycle) came thru with a 54.5 Mahle complete piston kit so I'm finally off the hook re: the missing piston problem (Oh Happy Day)! He has other over sizes in stock too. Another good guy to deal with from the suppliers list.
Way back in '91 when I first got V416 back I'd ordered some parts from him including a shift key. He sent me an extra one with instructions on the invoice that said I should "sleep with it". I still have that extra OEM key. [8D]
I'll no doubt have a question or two about the piston oil hole size etc. when I get everything back from the machine shop. In the meantime sincere thanks again for everyone's prior inputs. Cheers, Fred
V416 OneMoreTime
Fred,
Jake is the best and was one of the Best Riders of all times in my Book. He is a walking encyclopedia of knowledge and a Great Person. He did the same for me with a shift key when we couldn't find them.....I have never forgot the Favor.
Ron Carbaugh
Gent's re: that oil hole. What approx. size should that be? I'm sure there are different opinions and I'm hoping to not start a 'head butt' on the issue, but some input would be appreciated.
You're collective thoughts? Thanks in advance, Fred
V416 OneMoreTime
I haven't heard anything back on the size of that oil hole as of yet but in the meantime it's occurred to me that maybe the Mahle piston doesn't need one as opposed to the Wiseco's. 'Just wondering if there's any merit to that thought. If it's going to be done, now's the time for me to do it. A pm is fine if lengthy online debates are an issue.
[email protected] Ron, going back to the Jake Fischer topic, the guy just did me another good turn. 'Good one too.
It seems if Al, Terry, or Jake don't have it, you ain't gonna get it!
All of them will (and have) dug through little boxes and drawers to find me stuff. Cool. Cheers Fred
V416 OneMoreTime
I can not remember for positive sure but does a 125 Sachs even have a bridged exhaust port? I do not think iron or aluminum cylindered Sachs 125 or 100s had the bridge so no need for oil hole Fred.
Ted
Fred,
I just drill a small hole....I think that the size was what we used to use for the early Elsinore 125 bikes?
Ted,
I just drill holes in the pistons (Non-Mahle) to help lubricate on the exhaust side.
Ron Carbaugh
The instructions for the drilling state 2 holes (.060-.090") .375" apart and starting .300" below the bottom ring. As Ted stated this is for a cylinder with an exhaust bridge. I have no exhaust bridge- drilled no holes - and is running fine...after correcting a timing issue. Good luck! Harry
Hi I got a set of instructions in a Sachs-Penton piston kit. It says to mount the piston put the cylinder on and scribe a line on either side of the bridge of the exhaust port on the piston. Drill a .040" hole through the piston in the center of the two scribe lines 7mm underneath the lower edge of rectangular ring grind the edges. Piston clearance .04 to .045 mm max allowable clearance .06mm to .065mm. Piston ring clearance .1524mm to .2032mm max clearance .4572mm. Ed
72 Monark - project
76 Hercules 175 - project
possible Penton-Hiro project
I should have mentioned my instructions were for the wiseco piston, 1st oversize-red box- and for the 125 Sachs. Harry
There is no bridge on a Sachs exhaust port, so...no need to drill holes for oiling. As far as pistons are concerned, I went a bit over the top and used a 88/89 Honda piston, with a Yamaha RD 400 connecting rod. Needed the extra rod length to make up for the shorter Honda piston, quite a bit of work, but the bike vibrated a LOT less, and was very fast. The modern Wiseco reproduction pistons Al has been getting are light as well, that would be my pick.
Wow! Thank's everybody! As far as I know no one's making 1251-5A Sachs engines anymore so I'm trying to get this one right for the next 40+ yrs. V416 says to say thank you too! :D Cheers..., Fred
postscript: Correct, there is no bridge in the old iron cyl. butch head Sachs.
V416 OneMoreTime