G'day All,
I've been following the topics on this forum for a while, but this is my first posting (so please be gentle)...
I recently purchased from a "friend of a friend" what he escribed as "a '74 KTM'...but on closer inspection, I'm really not sure exactly what it is that I've bought ! Frame number is 54 30666721, Engine number 54 30003010, and the date clock reads June '73. So...I figured it must be a '73....but it's red ! I'm pretty sure it's had modifications done over the years...but chipping a little paint shows the original tank and airbox colour are red. The motor's centre two cases are black, but the rest of the motor is unpainted...so I'm a little confused. Its also had the rear frame loop replaced, and the top shock mounts have been removed. I'm going to attempt to include a pic for your perusal before I begin dismantling it...could omeone please provide me with any information about what I have? I plan to restore it to as close to new condition as possible, t race vintage mx, so any advice would be appreciated...in exchange I'll gladly keep you updated with photo's as it comes along...
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/dads001.jpg)
Oh...yes, I'm single...my bikes do live inside with me....at least until i build the new shed for them !! [8D]
Its at least a 74.5 frame, a '73/'74 will not have the 45 degree lay down shock mount. The engine could be from an older year, but the frame is for sure 74.5 at least.
Brian
i would be curious to see what the backbone under the tank looks like. it may be similar to some west coast ktm frames that i have seen. definately a 74 1/2 style swingarm and oblong rear downtube. the june 73 can be misleading. i have seen matching cases engines where the clocks are a number of months apart, even into the previous year of the serial #. the pipe is a 74 mx pipe, also on the 74 1/2's hard to say when the ktm's came with red in europe or otherwise. any ides of where the bike was from originally? i'm sure that there will be more to this story.. chicago jerry
There are 306 frame # 66440 & 307 66800 250's reginstered in the Frame Number lists, so evidently the frame number and date appears legitimate, even though it would not normally be associated with the lay down frame/shock arrangement. The rear Akront flanged wheel and straight non ribbed forks also would be characteristic of a mid 73 250 HareScrambler. Since the rear frame loop and top shock mounts have been removed, I wonder if the rear frame section and associated swing arm have been replaced/grafted onto a 73 HS chassis? It looks like a nice job, whatever the case. I wonder is the pipe is in fact a 74 model, as I can not see the telltale 74 only perforated mount above the LH side of the engine in the pic. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
The frame is a 74.5 model dont know why the frame number says 73? 74.5's had the akront rims. Never have seen that type chain guide/brake stay. is the front hole a 6mm or 8mm bolt? 6mm was on 74 and 8mm was on 75. Of course the mount could have been changed, but it may be a clue if this is a "parts bike" if it is a 8mm and looks like a stock bracket.
If by chance it is a replacement frame, the number from the original frame may have been stamped into the replacement.
Paul
I have a 74.5 Jackpiner with Akronts and 7" travel no-ribbed 35mm forks.
Brian
Hey Jim,
You've got an interesting bike that's an amalgam of 1973-75 parts. Your frame number indicates a date of June 1973, but it has the rear downtube of a 1974.5. My initial thought was exactly what you were thinking Paul, but the steering stem gusset that connects it to the front downtubes, the horizontal tubes, and the backbone, is a 73 gusset, which can be identified by the inverted V profile at the bottom of it. So to me, the options are that someone has either added the 74.5 rear downtube or they've spliced together the front half of a 73 frame and the rear of a 74.5-later frame as Mike Winter suggested. Regardless, the front half of your frame is in fact a 1973. Also, the rear frame loop has been shortened and the gusset above the shock reservoir has been cut, as it is normally larger and has a hole for an engine stay. The other things to take note of are:
Engine - I believe what you listed is not the engine number but rather a casting number. The actual engine number is hidden on the right case directly above the front of the ignition cover.
Rims - As Mike Winter noted, the rear rim appears to be a 73-74 ridged Akront, while the front rim appears to be a 75-later ridgeless Akront or other brand.
Rear brake stay - As Mike Lenz noted, you've got an interesting rear brake stay/chain guide that's similar to the 75-later stay/chain guide, but looks homemade.
Swingarm - The swingarm is the 74.5-later style with all of the outer shock mount holes removed except the one that's being used.
Shocks - Nice remote-reservoir Ohlins, but they're not going to be legal for the appropriate AHRMA Sportsman class.
Pipe - The pipe appears to be a normal 74-later motocross pipe, but a left side view would help.
Airbox - The airbox has the wide profile and extra mount on the lower right side, which is typically the earlier style. The 74.5-later Penton's with the oblong rear downtube typically had this area removed.
Front hub - Either the front hub is the correct black, mag hub with the paint peeling, or it's an aluminum hub that's been painted. Also, I think we should be seeing more of an axle hanging out, but I would need to see a close-up to tell. Oh, and the forged aluminum front brake stay is a mid-74 and later item.
Tank - It appears that someone has added a through-bolt to the front of the tank.
Hope this helps out a little...overall, it's a cool bike that someone has certainly put some effort into at one time. I'm sure the other guys will chime in with some more observations too. In the meantime, shoot us the engine number and a pic of the left side of the bike and we might be able to figure a few more things out.
74.5-later front gusset plate
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp54/Knute63/Penton262.jpg)
Close-up of the rear downtube junction
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp54/Knute63/Penton263.jpg)
Rear frame loop, shock mount area
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp54/Knute63/Penton264.jpg)
TEAM PENTOVARNA
Kent Knudson
Kevin Brown
Gary & Toni Roach
James & Adam Giddings
Dennis & Cory Buttrick
Derick Kemper
Nicole Hays
Josh Gaitten
I LOVE these kinds of mystery bikes!! The neat thing about most all brands of Vintage bikes now, is the bike has a story to tell if you look at it close enough, I'd love to know this bike's story.
Brian
Thank you to everyone who's helped me try to identify my mystery project. I seem to have unwittingly opened up a can of worms ! As requested, I have some more pics, maybe to deepen the mystery...
Left hand side...
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/IMG_0121.jpg)
top of frame, showing no tags for mounting the rear fender, the filled-in top of the airbox, and the cut-away plate to allow room for the exhaust, which sits a little higher than I think it maybe should...
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/IMG_0122.jpg)
...And finally....what seems to me to be a total lack of an engine number ( I searched very carefully....even searched Al Buehner's site for a pic of where to look....
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/IMG_0132.jpg)
Mike R. Winter - you're quite right Mike...there's no evidence of a pipe mount beneath the tank on either the pipe or frame...although this could possibly be as simple as careful grinding. ..
Mike Lenz - The front mounting bolt of the rear brake stay has a 6mm thread, and does look as though it may be an original part
Knute - Your observations are all correct....those lovely looking Ohlins will be replaced during the rebuild...they won't pass here in Western Australia either !! The front hub is a magnesium unit.
I really don't have any information about this bike's history, although I may have a couple of leads to chase up....from 1970 till 1974 John Kirkpatrick was the Australian importer of KTM motorcycles, trading as "Motocross Motorcycles". This shop has long since closed, but John, and his son Shane, a noted rider here in Western Australia during the 70's, are still very much alive, and may possibly know something about this bike, especially if there was something special about it at the time. The search continues.......[8D]
Wow, the pan that mates the high breather backbone to the top of the airbox has been completely eliminated, leading me to believe that if you take a closeup of the frame right by the footpegs, like the Close-up of the rear downtube junction, I would almost bet it is grafted in place there and it looks like right at the base of the high breeather backbone. I had a 400 with a similar stamping and some other characters by the ignition cover which led me to believe that the engine was special built and not a production installation, like maybe a replacement engine. This one is a racer with the internal rotor Motoplat, not generally used on this type of bike. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
Would this photo suffice?:D
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/IMG_0127.jpg)
sometimes I'm prepared...:)
Well, that doesn't look altered or re-welded, so that is not where it was sectioned if that was the case. A close inspection of frame might indicate a splice forward of that area, replacing more than just the rear section in the lower portion of the frame. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
Thanks Mike...I'm gonna be up all night looking for little dags of weld now [:p] Its 12.40am here in West OZ !!
I'm betting Paul is onto something, I bet it was a replacement frame and the original number was stamped into it. Even current dealerships do that, a customer can not buy a Honda frame, if we replaced a Honda frame, we had a form we had to fill out to vouch for the fact that we destroyed the old frame and stamped the same VIN in the replacement.
Brian
Did KTM have different setup that they sold in their country or origin?
I do a lot of work on old Triumphs and always come across differences in models that were imported to the US as compared the the English models. Mostly is's controls and little things but I have ran across some pretty extream differences in same year frames. I'm sure it was do to the jigs they used but I have always wondered that about Penton's.
74 250 Hare scramble
2 68 Six Day (projects)
This might be a dumb question....but how does air get into the airbox?
Keith Meatyard
Well, normally the triangle portion that is filled in on the top of your airbox mates up with a pan that is attached to the base of the frame backbone and air enters the oval slotted holes in the frame backbone under the tank, effectively drawing air up high away from any water level if in high water such as a stream crossing, and also reducing the amount of dust that enters the airbox. In your case it would have to enter from the side panel which would have to be vented, (modified). Here are some pics from eBay showing the pan and stock rear frame section on a 73 250 HareScrambler and another clearer pan pic from a Six Days. Mike
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee220/454MRW/Pentonrearframeandairboxpan_zps58339f77.jpg)
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee220/454MRW/PentonFrameairboxpan_zps8e4db5c7.jpg)
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee220/454MRW/PentonAirboxPan_zpse8ab2560.jpg)
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
Cool new pics Jim. Overall, the left side and under-seat area look to have more of the same style mods. From the new angles we can see the following:
Frame - The front steering stem and gusset area is definitely pre-74.5, so the 306 serial number is appropriate. The rear 74.5-later downtube also looks very original, so the mystery remains. Also, is it just an illusion or does the horizontal frame tube running over the engine look kind of funky? That could be where a splice occured...I'd love to see a close up of that area when you get a chance. Also, the section that connects the high-breather frame has obviously been cut out and some new bits have been fabbed in to hold the front of the seat, the top of the airbox, and the rear fender. I don't see any sign of rear seat mounts, so I'm not sure what's going on there. The left engine strut is still intact and is the 73-early 74 steel style. Most likely, the right strut was removed to make servicing the carb easier, as the pipe is in the way on the left side. As you guys have noted earlier, I don't see any sign of the left side pipe mount, which would normally be a tab welded to the frame tube in the area above the engine.
Engine - The R56 stamping is interesting. When you get a chance, check the same area of the left case and see what's there. Typically the left case carries the matching last 4 digits of the right case. These numbers will help indicate if the right case was replaced or if the cases were replaced as a matching set...I've seen both. Of course the black cases and the date clock indicate a 1973 engine and I think I'm seeing a small kickstarter, which would most likely mean the engine has the small, 73 kickstart shaft. The clutch cover is the newer, post-73 style, which was offered in a version that fit the small shaft, or perhaps someone has bushed a large shaft cover to fit. Also, I'm not sure what's going on with the stator wires, but they originally exited from the notch at the top, rear of the ignition cover area.
Airbox - Keith, that's certainly not a dumb question. Most likely, the airbox cover/number plate was louvered and let air flow directly to the filter. This style of cover/number plate seemed to be more common with the MXers and Europeans. Maybe someone can dig up a picture of one and post it for us.
If I had to guess, the internal rotor ignition, mx pipe, laid-down Ohlins, and the airbox mods would lead me to believe the old girl was MX'd back in the day. Should be a fun project!
TEAM PENTOVARNA
Kent Knudson
Kevin Brown
Gary & Toni Roach
James & Adam Giddings
Dennis & Cory Buttrick
Derick Kemper
Nicole Hays
Josh Gaitten
Here are a couple bike that feature the popular European louvered left hand side panel. Mike
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee220/454MRW/EuropeanKTMwithlouveredsidepanel_zps4f133dd4.jpg)
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee220/454MRW/KTM2025020GS20197520Flavio20C_20sx_zps507afa02.jpg)
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
G'day once again,
Thanks MRW for posting those pics...I see now exactly what the frame/airbox join would have originally looked like. I'm still deciding whether to retain what I have, or change it back to original. I think the original setup may have been changed because the pipe sits a little higher than I think it should....the bottom plate would have had to be removed to allow room for it. I have some more pics to hopefully either pique your interest, or maybe clear some queries...
Firstly...a '72 works factory bike with a vented sidecover...a rather neat job, too....
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/KTM_72_Works_bike5-904x611.jpg)
Next...the ignition cover...showing the notch where the wiring exits is at the top front....
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/DSCF0117.jpg)
This pic shows the rear fender mount...it consists of the top plate trimmed down and thn bent back double, presumably to add some strength...
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/DSCF0115.jpg)
The remains of the rear tank mount can still be seen....
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/DSCF0114.jpg)
The left hand crankcase has the same R56 stamp as the right...
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/DSCF0118.jpg)
...and, finally, the frame tube that looked rather skanky in one of the other pics...no obvious sign of a graft here...
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/DSCF0119.jpg)
The rear seat mounts are actually at the top of the elongated 74.5 down tube...I think this may have been done of necessity, as the frame may not be of a standard length any more.
- Jim
You have to remember the era we were in - when the 250 Penton came out it was a BEAST, and had a motor that was immediately acknowledged as the most powerful 250 available. It was also un-ridable by 98% of the riders, and could only be described as a pros bike. The powerband was truly like a light switch.
The next versions were de-tuned to be easier to ride. Then Penton again completely wowed the industry with the first laid down shock production motorcycle available with an amazing amount of rear wheel travel for it's time.
It's not a big leap to think that some MX'er somewhere wanted to create what they hoped would be the killer bike - an early engine fire breathing monster with long travel rear end. (A Honda killer - they had terrible frames & suspension then)
This could have been done by an individual, a shop, a distributor, or even possibly be a factory prototype or works bike.
I would tread carefully with the restoration until you find out a little more about the history of this bike.....
_____________________________________________________________________________________
"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing."
1972 Penton Berkshire 100
1983 Husqvarna 250 XC
2011 Jayco 31.5 RLDS
2009 Chevy 2500 HD Duramax
Oohh...you beat me to it Mike[:p] I knew nothing of a European habit of venting sidecovers...but here in Oz back in the '70's, it was a fad for a while. In such a dry environment like West Oz, the likelihood of a wet race meeting was low....so holes would be drilled through the airbox to improve airflow. Ocasionally airboxes would be removed altogether, and a foam elemant clamped directly to the back of the carb.
Thanks once again for yours, and everyone's...enlightening comments...I'm learning !
- Jim
- Southrider,
You're exactly right. I DO need to find out more about this bike's origins. If it was modified by a shop or distributor for a sponsored rider, or if it should be a prototype[:0] or factory bike[:0][:0] then changing it would be sacriledge...I'd only clean it up. To this end, I'm attempting to contact the guy who was the Australian importer from '69 to '74. He was also the distributor here in WA at that time. I don't actualy know this guy, but I do know a couple of people who do...so hopefully I may get to the bottom of the story that way.
Jim, I would be interested to see the frame number stamped into the frame's steer tube. Then we could tell if it's the factory stampings. If you can not find any witness marks of two frame sections welded together, it seems to me it must have been stamped at a later time.
Bob
Bob, of course...I should have thought of posting this pic before....
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/DSCF0123.jpg)
I love mystery bikes like this!
Brian
The pan that allowed air from the frame backbone to the top airbox entry is actually 2 layers of metal with an air gap between them for the air to travel to the lower opening into the airbox. That rear piece at the front of the rear fender has not been doubled over, it was always 2 layers joined together in the rear. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
Of course. You're exactly right Mike - I should have realized that. Where the two plates have been cut and joined on mine is such a neat job, it looked like one piece folded over. Thanks once again!
- Jim
I have been following this with great interest. I've done some work on a '74 frame to try to restore it to original configuration, and I have a '73 250 with a 309 serial number. It has to be a build up of some kind. In looking at the picture of the top of the airbox and the rear fender mount, there is a tab welded in to attach the top of the air box to. With the typical pan in place, this is normally a recessed area in the pan for the bolt to go through. This bracket looks typical of what you find elsewhere on the '73,'74,'75 frames for mounting the pipe, side covers, etc. and looks like it's factory welded and it never had the pan. Is there any significant difference in steering rake from '73 to '75? The reason I ask that is due to the fact that someone else brought up about the engine and it possibly being a custom built item. Could this be a one off factory built chassis, or complete bike? It's origins may have been in Europe and somehow it ended up down under? Very neat to see and great photos so far, but it would be neat to see in person to look for evidence of a frame graft. The only thing I don't like the looks of is in the same shot I mentioned before, and you can see the inside of the rear down tubes and shock mounts. You could apply paint stripper to strategic places to carefully remove paint to look for grind marks. But I'm guessing you won't find any if the bike was manufactured this way for whatever reason.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
400 motor marked with "R98" that mike was talking about. obiously "R98" is later than the 250 mention here as it is a '76 400 motor.
LHS marking
(http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i342/ozktm/76%20MC5%20400/P3030088_zps78fe6646.jpg)
RHS marking
(http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i342/ozktm/76%20MC5%20400/P3030090_zps73d79727.jpg)
Regards,
Adrian Goold #101
http://www.ozktm.com
(http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/142/fe1e34e644f240d797527a8b19182548/l.jpg)
'73 175 Rebuilt.
'74 400 Now Racing!
'78 250 running soon!
'81 250 Now Racing!
'81 495 Engine Work stage.
'84 125 Now racing!
'07 300
We seemed to have received alot of bitsa bikes downunder over the years from KTM. Some bikes we have seen have been parts from the last models and newer models mixed.
Another scenario is that the front half on the bike may have been built and used at a later date grafted to the later back end, then sent on downunder! The rest is obviously modified over time.
Also check this photo out below, this is an ignition cover that came on my original australian delivered 74.5 KTM 400. It looks to be identical to yours ! (currently on my 250!)
(http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i342/ozktm/1974%20KTM%20250%20Penton/039B0A1A-B16A-4E48-A554-975E53813F1E-1733-00000284DD158A8C.jpg)
Regards,
Adrian Goold #101
http://www.ozktm.com
(http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/142/fe1e34e644f240d797527a8b19182548/l.jpg)
'73 175 Rebuilt.
'74 400 Now Racing!
'78 250 running soon!
'81 250 Now Racing!
'81 495 Engine Work stage.
'84 125 Now racing!
'07 300
Quotequote:Originally posted by Jim Clayton
Bob, of course...I should have thought of posting this pic before....
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa210/Redrocket9/Bike%20Pics/DSCF0123.jpg)
Jim,
Okay, well that rules out that thought. It looks 'factory' to me. [?]
Adrian, Your restoration is perfection. Finest in the southern hemisphere.
Bob
Bob, you took the words right from my mouth.....Adrian, thats a beautiful bike you have there.
Your ignition cover sure is identical to mine in all but one minor aspect.. the slot for the ignition wires is at the front. The wires exit here, and run up the front right frame tube. Only a minor thing.. It seems the "R XX" stampings on the crankcase halves aren't all that uncommon. The lack of an engine number, and the black paint, could easily be attributable to the crankcase halves having been replaced at some point. As for the frame...I believe you may well be right. With no sign of grafting, I can only assume a) that it came from the factory this way..a mix of two year designs...or b)that at some point someone has grafted two frames together, so well that the welds match those done at the factory. Either way, I'm happy with the result. Other modifications I think have, as you said, been performed by various owners along the way.
I'll still attempt to chase up some history on this bike, as it does kinda hint at a chequered past. In the meantime, I'm going to strip the bike and give it a good clean up.
Thanks so much for everyone's help and advice..I'll be sure to post pics of the cleaned up results...and also let you know if I find out anything more concernng its past. If you have any ideas, keep them coming !!
- Jim