Based on my research within this forum I understand that some Wassell engines were reworked by Penton Imports to increase displacement from 125 to 152cc. I have a Wassell (W373 ST) configured with the Sachs engine but with Penton decals in place of the Sachs embossed logos on the cases. Additionally, my cylinder is cast iron but the head is aluminum.
Is there any traceability as to which bikes, by s/n, were reworked? Does the iron cylinder indicate a reworked engine? What is the reasoning for specifying the iron vs. aluminum cyl's.?
Also, can anyone recommend a good 'bodyman' to repair/re-shape the aluminum fuel tank? I would consider buying a nice used tank if available...
Thanks-
I have heard of a place in Canada that does nice restoration of aluminum tanks but I'd have to get the name from a buddy of mine.
Lew Mayer
Thanks Lew-
I don't think you will find a registry from "back in the day" that will show what engines were converted to 152cc.
Most all of the 152cc engines were converted from cast iron cylinders, but there are a few aluminum cylinder 152cc engines around. There are a few "hints" that a cast iron Sachs engine may be 152cc, the first is if it has the higher compression head instead of the butch style head, the link below will show you one of the hi-compression heads. The head is not a sure fire indicator, but the kits that Penton sold thru their exchange program mostly, if not always, used the hi-comp head. You can see those kits in some of the Hi-Point catalogs. On my first trip to Amherst, as were getting ready to head back home with my repaired Penton, John gave me a box with one of those kits in it and stating that he felt I would be impressed with the increased performance, and as usual..he was right :D
http://www.pentonusa.org/steeltank/regviews/steeltank13b.jpg
The other item to look for is a thinner base plate on the cylinder as the Yamaha 305 piston, which was used in the early 152cc engines, had a wrist pin location that required that the base of the cylinder be milled to obtain the correct deck height. The later Weisco 152cc pistons were designed with a wrist pin location that didn't require the cylinder base to be milled and with a wrist pin the same size as the Sachs wrist pin. This is also why only the aluminum rod could be used with the Yamaha piston as it had a top end bushing that could be reamed for the larger Yamaha wrist pin, the steel rods have a needle bearing. If you look at a milled and an un-milled cylinder together you can notice the difference.
It isn't hard to unbolt the head and take a peak if needed, but if you are scouting out a bike at a swapmeet sometimes you don't want to show all your cards, or so I am told...:)
Maybe a bit more than you asked about, maybe not...
Hope this helps,
Paul
Paul, I always love your insight on these matters.
74 250 Hare scramble
73 CMF 6day
68 6day V213
Thanks Paul- Based on the image in the link you provided, I can confirm I do not have the high compression head.
Here's a few pic's. of the 'project' as it stands today...
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/IMG_0792_zpsc56b3e46.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/IMG_0792_zpsc56b3e46.jpg.html)
Ouch...! Broken Cylinder fin...will need to find a "specialist" to repair this 'issue'
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/IMG_0795_zps01576453.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/IMG_0795_zps01576453.jpg.html)
View from the right side...
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/IMG_0793_zps2ae2814d.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/IMG_0793_zps2ae2814d.jpg.html)
Cylinder Head - Aluminum
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/IMG_0803_zps08539cb7.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/IMG_0803_zps08539cb7.jpg.html)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/IMG_0804_zpsbd806bc1.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/IMG_0804_zpsbd806bc1.jpg.html)
Crud in the intake...
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/IMG_0799_zpsaba842ea.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/IMG_0799_zpsaba842ea.jpg.html)
Exhaust Port...Aluminum, Iron & moisture do not play well together...
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/IMG_0796_zps2d8e14e4.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/IMG_0796_zps2d8e14e4.jpg.html)
Fuel Tank
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/IMG_0800_zpsf09b07ff.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/IMG_0800_zpsf09b07ff.jpg.html)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/IMG_0801_zps91db57b7.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/IMG_0801_zps91db57b7.jpg.html)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/IMG_0802_zps5ec9da0e.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/IMG_0802_zps5ec9da0e.jpg.html)
iyaoyas, Send me a note off list, I may be able to help you out. My mail address is 3puttathky.com. wnm
iyaoyas, Send me a note off list, I may be able to help you out. My mail address is 3puttathky.com. wnm
Hi 3putt-
I don't recognize the e-mail address format you gave me so I sent you an e-mail with my phone # through the POG forum.
You may also reply to:
[email protected]Thanks-
Okay, 3 hours later and here's all I've got to show for it [V]
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0812_zps25bdf8c9.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0812_zps25bdf8c9.jpg.html)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0811_zpscd57c87c.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0811_zpscd57c87c.jpg.html)
Most of this time was spent on removing the IRON cylinder...almost there :)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0814_zps46870cb0.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0814_zps46870cb0.jpg.html)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0823_zps807e1295.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0823_zps807e1295.jpg.html)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0815_zps75c772e5.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0815_zps75c772e5.jpg.html)
Was the rear brake switch added by Penton Imports or an enthusiast?
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0822_zps450dfbf5.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0822_zps450dfbf5.jpg.html)
Okay...what's wrong with this picture??
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0818_zps3c2fe286.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0818_zps3c2fe286.jpg.html)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0813_zps962e2060.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0813_zps962e2060.jpg.html)
The seat pan is salvageable...this is good!
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0820_zps7b88898d.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0820_zps7b88898d.jpg.html)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0821_zps5fffa6b4.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0821_zps5fffa6b4.jpg.html)
Hahahaha...! Improvise, overcome & adapt...man vs. oxidation-
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0825_zpsa699aba9.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0825_zpsa699aba9.jpg.html)
Stephen,
You've got your hands full.
As far as the tank goes, you can go on youtube and search 'removing dents from aluminum tanks'. I know of a guy that used to charge around $75.00 for an average tank. More fun to do it yourself though. An old screw driver rounded over or a ball driver bent to reach the dent at a 90 degree angle and a propane torch. Heat the aluminum from the outside while simultaneously working the dent from the inside with the ball driver.
Not sure you really need the 152cc change. I compete with mine at 125cc and it works fine. You'll have some carburetor adjustments to due as well if you change it. What size is the carb on it now?
You will need a bigger rear sprocket I think. That one seems a little small for Trials. Forks look good. That front tire is exactly what mine had on it when I got it.
What are your plans for it? Trials or Trails?
Joe Abbate from Cycle Therapy does majic on Al tanks
From my experience, if I had to do it over, I would stay with a 125cc and find the high compression head.
Lew Mayer
Listen to Lew.
Ron Carbaugh
Thanks for all the advice fellas. I think I will retain the 125cc configuration. My Cylinder is trashed and seeing that there's no oil in the crankcase I'll likely have to rebuild my crankshaft assy. as well. Let's hope the steel connecting rod is straight!
I sent an e-mail to the folks at Joe Abbate's Cycle Therapy requesting a quote and lead time for repairing my tank. I typically do all my own work but over the years I've learned my limits and know when to call for help...
Soon I'll compile my parts list...my goal is to have this project completed for the VMD @ Mid-O this summer :)
Finally removed the cylinder!
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0832_zps9c09577d.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0832_zps9c09577d.jpg.html)
'Dry as a Bone' inside the crankcase...
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0835_zps92474237.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0835_zps92474237.jpg.html)
Neglect...
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0834_zps2eaffd98.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0834_zps2eaffd98.jpg.html)
Steel Connecting Rod...
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0833_zps8b73b5a6.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0833_zps8b73b5a6.jpg.html)
Bing Carb...
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0831_zps24e036fb.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0831_zps24e036fb.jpg.html)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0830_zps2cc40486.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0830_zps2cc40486.jpg.html)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww268/iya0yas/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0829_zpsb49032ff.jpg) (http://s726.photobucket.com/user/iya0yas/media/Penton%20Wassell/IMG_0829_zpsb49032ff.jpg.html)
Wassell Tank Restoration...
The folks at Cycle Therapy no quoted the job due to a pending list of other projects however they recommended Metal Masters in Illinois who quoted me $1200...perhaps this is a reasonable price for the job??? Maybe so but it's a bit too spendy for my budget on this project.
I'm thinking about taking Gordon's advice and do the job myself but it may not turn out as I planned and end up costing me more than $1200 for someone to repair my repairs[B)]...
Looks like I'll keep searching for other alternatives such as a 'good' used tank at a reasonable price or another reputable repair shop...
Any and all suggestions are welcome...Thanks-
Check out item # 121110173231 on Ebay. Tanks are from India but look very close to a Wassell. Ted
Cycle Therapy is usually about $450. Your tank is not too bad. I will ask around $1,200 is silly as it is not that hard of a job. The trick is to make some special tools.
From talking to Mike Winter about how Elsinore tanks are restored, it seems that they cut the tunnel out of the tank, dolley the dents and such out from the inside, then reweld the tunnel back in. Just need access to a decent TIG welder. I'm a welder and fabricater by trade and can do this stuff for myself on a limited bases where I work, but never had the opportunity to try it. It's like the old redneck saying. "How hard can it be!" A lot depends on how complex the original tank construction is, and how careful you work as you go along. Haste really does make waste. I'll bet there is a You Tube video of aluminum tank repair, there seems to be a video of everything else under the sun! I think Mike told me that sometimes they take a slide hammer with a sheet metal screw on the business end, screw it into a hole in the dent, lightly pull the dent out, then just weld up the hole and polish off. TIG welder is needed here also. Youjust gott imagine how the dent got there, then try to reverse the process. With the tank tunnel out of the way, there is lots of room available. If I ever get to retire or at least semi retire, I gotta make arrangements for a TIG welder at home. Real handy on fixing up these old dirt bikes.
Good luck and have fun,
Dan McEntee
Stephen,
I have sent you some contact information through the POG email service. If you have not received it, contact me at
[email protected] and I will get it to you that way.
Gordon
Thanks Guys-
Ted - The Triumph tank looks really close...thanks, but I may keep mine after all and restore it as the odds of finding a good used Wassell or Tyran tank someone is willing to part with is probably slim to none.
I'm working on a parts list and will start a new thread on the Wanted/For Sale forum. Aside from the tank, I plan to do all the work myself, i.e. painting, engine rebuild, assembly etc.
My next purchase/investment is in a sand blast cabinet. I've been reviewing a couple options from Harbor Freight which seem adequate/cost effective for my intent. We'll see...:)
You can find good Wassell tanks for $300-$500 about every 3 months on Ebay. Flat trackers and bobber guys have been buying them and driving the prices up but they do come up
It seems as though my Wassell was stored in a wet climate for several years w/o any crankcase oil...:( I'm wanting to restore the bike and am now considering a 152cc conversion kit. To this end, I'll have to source the necessary engine component parts from many sources and fitting everything together properly so that I end up with a reliable engine is a concern. Another option is to retain the std. 125cc configuration however I think my stock engine is compromised beyond reasonable/cost effective repair.
1. Taking the path of least resistance...can I simply use the bottom end, i.e. the complete crankcase assy. from a 125cc Six-Days (or other Sachs 125?) engine with a Wassell cylinder and head?
2. Is the 6-days conrod the same length and mass as that of the Wassell?
3. Are the wrist pin bearings the same?
4. Assuming #2 is valid, would I compromise the balance factor if I mix-matched bottom & top end (i.e., Wassell piston, ring, wrist pin brng. assy. w/6-day crankshaft & flywheel)?
5. What is the std. and max. allowable bore dia's. of the Wassell cylinder?
Thanks again for everyone's time and help...!
Stephen Markley
Motor parts are the same for the Wassel and the Penton. Any good bottom end will work.
iyaoyas,
Did you ever get your tank repaired? If you did who did you have do it. Thanks.
Ron Carbaugh
The reference to a Canadian source for tank repair was for Ross Thompson in Ailsa Craig, Ontario (near London, Ontario).
I have not used him, but have heard good things about what he does.
If you google the name you will get his site.
Mike
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the lead... I've since had my tank repaired by Ewan Wilcox. He's from California and does amazing work as my tank looks better than new!
I'm still working on this project and saw your Wassell listing. Using your bike and a few bits & pieces from Al B., I should be able to complete one bike.
I have a cylinder and the high compression head your looking for, if interested, e-mail me.
victor monz
[email protected]
Thanks Victor however I've decided to sell my Wassell project.