Hi Penton Experts,
Here's a new puzzle: this is a "new" exhaust for my 1973 Penton Hare Scrambler (250 ccm) that I just refurbished. The exhaust outlet has a spark arrestor that is US made (marked Super Trapp). Its parts are shown here:
http://s1341.photobucket.com/user/andreas_g_piepke/media/Penton/100_3333_zpse9a09731.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
When put together it look like this:
http://s1341.photobucket.com/user/andreas_g_piepke/media/Penton/100_3336_zps227ccc65.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Here my questions:
1) Is this original or a re-fit?
2) Is there some cover or cap that needs to go over the spark arrestor?
As usual, many thanks for your input and expertise!
Andreas
This is not original, but looks nice and clean.
Ron Carbaugh
That is the correct arrangement for the Super Trapp silencer and requires no additional cover or cap, but it would be to your advantage to fabricate one that shields the fender and seat area side from exhaust heat and residue. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
I ditto Mike's suggestion and advise you to slip a section of fuel line over that exposed stud. Cut it about 1" too long. It will protect the threads and might prevent an injury in case of a fall. I say this from experience. Good looking setup....got the same thing on my 1977 400 GS6.
Steve Minor
Not original - but period correct. They were sold by Hi-Point, and were a popular mod in the late 70's for KTM engine Pentons.
They really help the engine to breathe, and were tunable in that you could add or remove discs as needed to get it to run better or be quieter as conditions dictated.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing."
1972 Penton Berkshire 100
1983 Husqvarna 250 XC
2011 Jayco 31.5 RLDS
2009 Chevy 2500 HD Duramax
Thanks a lot for the info!
Andreas
Nice project you have going there Andreas. I recently bought a Mint 400 that has a similar pipe on it, I didn't know Hi Point made them. If you know the maximum number of discs you are going to put on it you can cut off some of the stud so it doesn't stick out so far. I don't think you'd ever need more than 10. You can also put an "acorn nut" on the end.
You might want to hang on to the pipe that came on that bike, it looks like the original "motocross" style pipe that came on those but appears to have a funky silencer welded on the back. If you could find an original end cap you might be able to restore it. I have an early '74 (10/73 production date) Harescrambler with a really nice example of that pipe on it. I would include a photo if I wasn't so "computer challenged" [B)]
A photo would be great! The exhaust that was originally on the bike was in worse shape. Indeed an endpiece has been welded on the one shown on the pictures. I have 8 disks. Otherwise this exhaust is in reasonable shape.
Cheers
Andreas
Hi Andreas,
The Mint 400 pipe also has 8 discs. The stud has been cut and has a 1/4-20 acorn nut with 2 flat washers over the nylock nut that holds the disks on. The same setup is on a supertrapp muffler on my Ossa MAR trials bike but with 4 disks. I have to clean the discs on that one often or they carbon up.
I guess I'll have to sign up for photobucket.com, it looks like a good way to go.
Wes
Some photos of the stock MX pipe.
http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag274/splatman4/20140521_170954_zpsf0166cd5.jpg
http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag274/splatman4/20140521_170331_zpsdb31e011.jpg
And the Hi-Point with Super Trapp.
http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag274/splatman4/20140523_113928_zpsf9a6ed83.jpg
The pipe pictured is a 74 MX silencer for the MX model. The 73 pipe was a weird dual outlet silencer.
Wes thanks for the pictures! This indeed looks like mine. Does this work well?
Andreas
that is the best working pipe that you can have. chi jer
Andreas,
I haven't ridden the bike with the Hi-Point pipe, but I'm sure it will work fine. It looks alot like a stock pipe all the way back to the silencer. The nice thing about the Super Trapp is it's a spark arrestor too.
I raced the Hare Scrambler with the stock pipe and it ran great, it could hang with any vintage 250. I bought a new one from Ace because I wanted to preserve the stock one. Good thing I did because a couple of races later I tacoed the Ace pipe pretty bad. It's repaired now and I run it on my '74 1/2 250. That bike rips too. I put an FMF turbine core muffler on it, not period correct but it is much quieter and has a spark arrestor.
Hi Experts,
I finally installed the engine and exhaust on my 1973 Penton Hare Scrambler. Getting the pipe in was EXTREMELY difficult as there doesn't seem enough clearance to make any kind of adjustments. The pictures below show the pipe from the left side:
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o746/andreas_g_piepke/100_3952_zps86c7e0a0.jpg)
and the right side:
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o746/andreas_g_piepke/100_3953_zps1ba95ab5.jpg)
It does fit after some pushing and pulling. The problem is this:
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o746/andreas_g_piepke/100_3954_zps6df890fe.jpg)
The pipe touches the frame on its top. I am afraid that there will be a hole in there in no time once one adds vibrations to the picture.
Is this situation normal? Maybe I don't have the right pipe? Perhaps one could try to add some heat resistant rubber on top of the pipe to dampen the vibrations. I would appreciate any experience you could share with me on this!
Cheers
Andreas
Vibration will eat through rubber pad in a heart beat. Looks to me you are going to have to do some metal work somewhere. The simplest and quickest to me (if you aren't a stickler for looks) would be to make a chalk line on each side of the frame tube while the pipe is installed. Then remove the pipe, and find another piece of round stock to lay between the chalk lines, and start tapping it with a hammer. Lots of light taps, until it looks like you have at least 1/4" depression. I don't think this will affect the performance of the pipe, but I reserve the right to be wrong on that.
Another way to look at it is the two points that locate the pipe where it it is the top rear mount near the silencer, and the lower mount underneath the pipe above the right foot peg. You need to somehow shorten the lower mount, then lengthen the upper mount. The bottom bracket on the pipe could be shortened by careful hammering or cutting and welding. Then test fit the pipe. If it all clears, then you remake the top rear bracket to suit. One way or another, I think you will have to rework some metal for this pipe to fit your bike.
In my limited experience with Pentons so far, this probably isn't unusual for a part to fit one bike like a glove and then not very well on another frame. Given the almost hand built nature of each bike and normal human errors, it's gonna happen. I would think that you just need an honest 1/4" to 5/16" clearance between the pipe and the frame tube, or anywhere else the pipe comes near. You just gotta get the bike up on a stand where you can see it from a lot of angles and sight things out to determine which way you need to go. Just remember that if you increase clearance on one side, you take away clearance on the opposite side.
Good luck with it,
Dan McEntee
A lot simpler solution would be to change out the rubber isolation mount on the lower side of the pipe with one that's not as thick which would bring the pipe down away from the frame. Not exactly stock looking but a good solution nevertheless. your mount does not look bent, but a slight bend might change it slightly. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
Thanks for the input! I will for sure need to go one of the routs mentioned, it can't stay like this.
Andreas
I just went back and reread that you mention this is a 73 250 HS not a 74, which the pipe for a 73 has a slightly different mounting at the top left hand side above the engine and all of the 73 250 pipes that I have seen had the big club tail and not the MX silencer, which may be why the fit is tight, although the slight modifications mentioned should allow it to work okay. What threw me off was the red airbox, as 73's are yellow with a yellow tank. If it is actually an early 74 starting with 54-311 or later on the frame number, that pipe would be correct. I know when you got the pipe it has a SuperTrapp silencer on it that you replaced with an MX tip, but the perforated bracket on the pipe just above the engine is 74 style not 73. 73 uses a smaller straight tab, which might move the pipe and change the angle of the pipe slightly, which would also relive the observed distortion at the rear bottom mount rubber as well. I also notice that on that lower rear bracket insulator, there is a pinkish/tan color 1/8" thick heat insulating washer in place that does not belong there, it is however used on the rear position mount against the bracket on the pipe, and also on the front insulator above the engine positioned against the pipe bracket. In the following pictures is a 74 Enduro pipe with the same front bracket as you have, followed by a 73 pipe with the different style and position front bracket. That insulator incorrectly positioned would raise the pipe 1/8" by itself, and from the looks of the 73 yellow tank HS pic, the 73 mounting tab would lower the pipe some in the front, also changing the pipe position. Lasty, the same borrowed pic of the most common 73 250 HS pipe that I saved on my computer. Notice the rear mounting tabs for the rear fender, which differ from your 74 stamped tin mounting tabs on the corners of the rear fender loop, most likely identifying your bike as an early 74 Red Tank 250 HS, like my own 54-311. Mike
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee220/454MRW/MVC-021F.jpg) (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/454MRW/media/MVC-021F.jpg.html)
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee220/454MRW/Pentonsowned042.jpg) (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/454MRW/media/Pentonsowned042.jpg.html)
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee220/454MRW/Pentonsowned040_zps1702c124.jpg) (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/454MRW/media/Pentonsowned040_zps1702c124.jpg.html)
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
Hi Mike,
Your message has a lot of information! The VIN on my bike is 54-311 so I guess this makes it an early 1974 model like yours. That said, the pipe on the bike didn't come with the bike. I got it separately the way it is, except for sandblasting and painting, of course. However, the one that was on (was in bad shape) had the same front attachment tab as my current pipe, it was broken. So the exhaust seems to be correct then. The air box and tank are both red, and not painted but still with the gel coat. The seat is thicker than that on your pictures of the yellow bike. The engine was black, though, which is only the case for the 73 model as far as I understand.
Coming to the heat shield washer: I don't really have the right parts list for this year, I guess, and couldn't figure out how to place this component. The chosen ordering made sense to me. The metal holding bracket of the pipe is hot, so I put the washer between the metal and the rubber. This is to insulate the rubber from the high temperature metal and prevent it from melting. Where would you put that part? I could put it inside the metal bracket to lower the exhaust but I don't know what it would be insulating there.
Thanks for your detailed observations, this is definitely helpful beyond the pipe!
Andreas
There is no need for an insulating washer in that position, because of the design of the bracket, which forms an open square where the mount attaches and air passes through that pipe mounting bracket, but the others have a more direct attachment, and do need the insulating washer. The assembly pieces depicted in the spare parts manual-007 clearly show no insulating washer in that position and one used in each of the other 2. Very early red tank 74 Hare Scramblers did have black enignes depending on the serial number of the engine. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
One more thing on the model year of my Hare Scrambler: while the VIN (54 311 .....) indicates late 1973 production, the little clock cast into the right engine housing half indicates March 1973. This was either a left-over engine or someone combined these two components some time back.
I'll try swapping the rubber mounts. This is easy enough to do.
Cheers
Andreas
The clock date is when the cases are cast, which is before they are machined and then later assembled as a complete engine, which may occur quite some time later. What is the engine serial number? It is located just above the right hand ignition cover just below the cylinder fins. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
The engine number is: 54 30 003010. Does it allow identification of the assembly or installation date?
Andreas
That sounds like the case casting # found by the clock date. The engine ID is a stamped in # like 3-54xxxxx directly above the motoplat ignition cover by the front engine mount bolt hole. My 311 dated frame bike has # 3-5401964 stamped on it. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
The pipe on my 74.5 250 was completely trashed and my only option was to buy a new one from Dorino Pillon in Italy. It was a bit of a job to fit but looks and sounds fantastic and is an exact replica of the original - and it only cost £416 ($675)[:p][:p][:p]
Thanks for all the input. So I switched the rubber mounts and put the one with the heat shield on the front mount. In addition I used the "tap-tap" method to make some more room between exhaust and frame. That worked, now I have clearance between exhaust and frame. The exhaust is still somewhat strained, visible at slight deformation of the rubber mounts. That can't be helped, I guess.
Richard, I already exchange emails with Pillon Dorino earlier this year. His parts do look awfully nice. However, he told me that he can't ship an exhaust to the US as it is too long. Maximum shipping length into the US is 1.0 m, while his exhaust for my Penton is 1.4 m long. The price he quoted to me on 4/30/2014 was 370 Euro (or about $460), quite a bit cheaper than the number given above. Richard did you manage to get an exhaust shipped by Pillon Dorino?
Thanks again for all your useful input!
Andreas
Just out of curiosity to add to the information gathered so far on early Red Tank Hare Scramblers, were you able to find the engine serial number located by the front RH engine mount, if you don't mind sharing. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
Yes, I found the number cast into the right side engine case, and no I don't mind at all sharing it. The number is 3-5400253. Does this allow to narrow down the production date?
Cheers
Andreas
Wow! That us the 253rd 250 engine produced. It must have been a lot earlier in 1973 than the frame. Compared to my 1964th engine produced in 1973, that indicates quite a lag from engine build to installation if that is the original engine. There is no telling if engines were used in a particular order, or just stock piled, then grabbed randomly for installation in a chassis as they were needed. Thanks, Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
Hey Mike;
How does his frame number compare to the frame number from the parts bike you brought back from Chicago? Is that one still the earliest '74 you have found? I have been watching this thread and wondering why it had a red air box and tank. My '73 was made in September I think. And there are some little differences between the '73 and '74 frames, correct?
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Dan, That frame is a 311 date frame also and the engine you have is 1874, which is close to the 1964 engine number I have, as I recall. The only significant difference In 74 vs. 73 frames is the type of rear fender mount tabs and possibly a slightly different location for the exhaust pipe mount above the engine, and the rear exhaust mount. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
I had one of the very earliest '73's that I bought in September '73. It was common back then to chop the exhaust and add an aftermarket aluminum Skyways silencer. It did drop some of the weight.
The following two pics were in early March '74 on a trip back to California. The Harescramble in the background was Carl's old ride which belonged to a my racing bud. I was 19 then. On this trip Carl warranted the frame and I had to scramble to strip the frame down for the exchange. The mud and grit were at the Old Hangtown site in Plymouth.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/10_Rounder/pentons/Knight-6_zps817d5662.jpg)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/10_Rounder/pentons/Knight-7_zps04f70fc5.jpg)
Showroom stock Sucks!!!!!
I never saw a black barreled Harescrambler like on the early Jackpiners. Even my 309 barn find had a raw aluminum barrel
Doug,
Neat photos, thanks for posting them. When you mention Carl, would that be Carl Cranke?
I have engine 3 5400341 sitting here and the cylinder on it is as you described, raw.
There is a magnetic sign on the side of the pickup, was that from a shop?
Love hearing about shops from "back in the day" if that is what it is.
Paul
This is how cylinder and cylinder head looked when I got them (after cleaning off the mud):
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o746/andreas_g_piepke/100_3253_zpsfbcd3f49.jpg)
When looking at the cylinder from below:
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o746/andreas_g_piepke/100_3254_zpsf59a4d90.jpg)
When glass bead blasting the parts it was observed that the paint on the head was extremely tough to take off while the paint on the barrel came right off. Perhaps this indicates that the paint on the barrel was not original but applied by some owner. However, it looked as if it was applied by brush on both parts. I didn't know what to make of this, so I painted both parts black to replicate the original appearance.
Does anybody have an engine with a lower serial number or is mine particularly early?
Cheers
Andreas