I just picked up a 1974 Penton 125 6-days. The bike is pretty nice and runs but I haven't had it out for long. I believe it needs a new clutch since I can't get any adjustment out of it and the cable is at the end of its adjustment. I ordered the parts from Al and he's sending them now. I did get a repair manual from Al but the images have been copied so many times in some cases its hard to see. I'm hoping to get some help from the forum to get the bike in good shape - will try to post some pics too. Can anyone give me some pointers to change the clutch ? I want to know what kind of fluid to use as well, seen that a standard transmission fluid works well. I am getting some fluid leakage out of the case i believe at the shafts.
Welcome to the group. There is more knowledge here than you can imagine. Ask all the question that you have. And good luck with your new bike!
1976 MC 5 Original Owner
1982 Suzuki PE 175
1976 Penton 175 XC
1979 KTM 175 GS
Hi and welcome! Start off by adjusting the clutch at the engine. Left side, clutch cover middle higher large screw. Remove the cover/screw and you will see a brass screw and a small steel one (grub screw). Loosen the grub a little where you can turn the brass. Turn the brass clockwise in all the way until it stops and then back it off 1/3 turn. Lock the grub so the brass won't turn and the clutch is adjusted at the engine. Now, go from there to the bars and see if you can get the lever adjusted properly. In some cases, I cut and re solder the cable to make it shorter, works better with about 1/4" cut off. Good luck
Removal of the clutch is pretty straight forward and generally requires little internal attention.
A. Over time cables do stretch out and need replacing. It is recommended taking the cover off to change out the cable so as to not break/strip out the access plug (vintage castings).
B. Check the washers and thrust bearing behind the clutch. They must be installed properly for the clutch and adjustment to function optimally.
C. The clutch cover case leakage can usually be cured in one or more ways. The ID of the seal pressed into the case may be leaking but the most likely cause is the O-ring installed on the shift/starter shafts. Sometimes adding a second O-ring and pushing the kicker up tightly (but not binding) cures the issue.
D. Make sure the copper washer is installed on what should be the oil drain screw. Don't use the bottom drain plug (more potential breakage or thread stripping). Pop the side cover screw and lean her over...
E. Lubricant choice is highly personal. I use Golden Spectro 80WT Gear Lube (because Doug Wilford said that's what to use, and I'm old school). He also recommended 700cc which helps lubricate the layshaft but may also contribute the the thru shaft drippage.
Dale Fisher
Penton Owners Group - President/Memberships
Mudlark Registry
Facebook - Cheney Twinshock Racing Group - Administrator
'70 Six-Day 125 - V2017
'71 Six-Day 125 (Dave Fisher's) - V5553
'72 Mudlark - W257
'73 Jackpiner - 175 21159727
'74 Berkshire 100 - 40171056
'98 HP-14 Hi-Point
And some silly other bikes...
The manual says to use automatic transmission fluid, not sure what type. I've also seen where you are supposed to soak the new clutch plates in the fluid overnight to absorb fluid and slightly thicken.
Quotequote:Originally posted by Dale Fisher
Removal of the clutch is pretty straight forward and generally requires little internal attention.
A. Over time cables do stretch out and need replacing. It is recommended taking the cover off to change out the cable so as to not break/strip out the access plug (vintage castings).
B. Check the washers and thrust bearing behind the clutch. They must be installed properly for the clutch and adjustment to function optimally.
C. The clutch cover case leakage can usually be cured in one or more ways. The ID of the seal pressed into the case may be leaking but the most likely cause is the O-ring installed on the shift/starter shafts. Sometimes adding a second O-ring and pushing the kicker up tightly (but not binding) cures the issue.
D. Make sure the copper washer is installed on what should be the oil drain screw. Don't use the bottom drain plug (more potential breakage or thread stripping). Pop the side cover screw and lean her over...
E. Lubricant choice is highly personal. I use Golden Spectro 80WT Gear Lube (because Doug Wilford said that's what to use, and I'm old school). He also recommended 700cc which helps lubricate the layshaft but may also contribute the the thru shaft drippage.
Dale Fisher
Penton Owners Group - President/Memberships
Mudlark Registry
Facebook - Cheney Twinshock Racing Group - Administrator
'70 Six-Day 125 - V2017
'71 Six-Day 125 (Dave Fisher's) - V5553
'72 Mudlark - W257
'73 Jackpiner - 175 21159727
'74 Berkshire 100 - 40171056
'98 HP-14 Hi-Point
And some silly other bikes...
I tried that adjustment since the repair manual notes this but it didn't seem to do anything. Maybe it would be better with the side cover off and I guess I'll need to make that adjustment after i change the clutch (?) I did notice that with the cable at it's extreme adjustment and the bike in gear and the clutch lever engaged, the bike won't roll - I had assumed that that meant the clutch was bad (?)
Quotequote:Originally posted by kip kern
Hi and welcome! Start off by adjusting the clutch at the engine. Left side, clutch cover middle higher large screw. Remove the cover/screw and you will see a brass screw and a small steel one (grub screw). Loosen the grub a little where you can turn the brass. Turn the brass clockwise in all the way until it stops and then back it off 1/3 turn. Lock the grub so the brass won't turn and the clutch is adjusted at the engine. Now, go from there to the bars and see if you can get the lever adjusted properly. In some cases, I cut and re solder the cable to make it shorter, works better with about 1/4" cut off. Good luck
Thanks ! Id like to post a few pics of the Penton but can't seem to see how - please let me know how to post photos. !
Quotequote:Originally posted by skiracer
Welcome to the group. There is more knowledge here than you can imagine. Ask all the question that you have. And good luck with your new bike!
1976 MC 5 Original Owner
1982 Suzuki PE 175
1976 Penton 175 XC
1979 KTM 175 GS
Click on search and enter posting pics.
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
Clutches do sometimes get "stuck" if not run for awhile and even on well used bikes. Getting the clutch to release can range from a little coaxing with the lever fully pulled and rocking the bike back and forth in gear to bump starting and riding the running bike with lever pulled. My Berkshire is the culprit at times on the second scenario and I don't care for it much.... Operational kill switch highly suggested! ;) My Triumph 500 single the worst!! [:0]
Dale Fisher
Penton Owners Group - President/Memberships
Mudlark Registry
Facebook - Cheney Twinshock Racing Group - Administrator
'70 Six-Day 125 - V2017
'71 Six-Day 125 (Dave Fisher's) - V5553
'72 Mudlark - W257
'73 Jackpiner - 175 21159727
'74 Berkshire 100 - 40171056
'98 HP-14 Hi-Point
And some silly other bikes...
I use ATF in my Penton Trials bike, as well as a couple other Vintage bikes I have. Just make sure it's Type (F), and change it more often. Mine comes out of the motor, looking exactly the way it did going in.
Dale, I have the same problem with a Yamaha TY350 Trials bike. Sometimes my future son in law rides it, and I always tell him to not have it pointing at anything important when he drops it in to gear. Takes about 5 minutes before it works loose.
I heard that type F transmission fluid was good to use - why type F ? does it have to do with the clutch plate material ? I got new old stock plates from Al and new springs, cable, case gasket, etc. I am planning to attempt to change the clutch soon - any pointers or tips for the procedure ? Any left hand threads or ?
Quotequote:Originally posted by Gordon Brennan
I use ATF in my Penton Trials bike, as well as a couple other Vintage bikes I have. Just make sure it's Type (F), and change it more often. Mine comes out of the motor, looking exactly the way it did going in.
Dale, I have the same problem with a Yamaha TY350 Trials bike. Sometimes my future son in law rides it, and I always tell him to not have it pointing at anything important when he drops it in to gear. Takes about 5 minutes before it works loose.
Type F ATF
I've used it in my 1974 Husky 125WR since new.
Over 10,000 hard miles on the bike. Crank has been re-done...bore is now out to + .080...
But it is still on the original transmission and clutch...including friction plates. Clutch doesn't drag. Clutch doesn't slip.
Also used in vintage Brit bike primary cases.
Clutches usually free up with one or 2 kicks with the lever pulled in.
Richard Colahan
1969 V1225
Upper Black Eddy PA
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab162/ccmnova/Penton/IMG_20150330_135951.jpg) (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/ccmnova/media/Penton/IMG_20150330_135951.jpg.html)
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab162/ccmnova/IMG_20150330_175547.jpg) (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/ccmnova/media/IMG_20150330_175547.jpg.html)
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab162/ccmnova/IMG_20150330_135937.jpg) (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/ccmnova/media/IMG_20150330_135937.jpg.html)
Quotequote:Originally posted by 454MRW
Click on search and enter posting pics.
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab162/ccmnova/Penton/IMG_20150330_135944.jpg) (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/ccmnova/media/Penton/IMG_20150330_135944.jpg.html)
Quotequote:Originally posted by ccmnova
Thanks ! Id like to post a few pics of the Penton but can't seem to see how - please let me know how to post photos. !
Quotequote:Originally posted by skiracer
Welcome to the group. There is more knowledge here than you can imagine. Ask all the question that you have. And good luck with your new bike!
1976 MC 5 Original Owner
1982 Suzuki PE 175
1976 Penton 175 XC
1979 KTM 175 GS
Very nice Penton!
Ron Carbaugh
Yes, very nice. Hope my 74 looks that good someday. :D
...Wonderful machine!
I wish I had him :)
The old style PENTON Sachs are the most beautiful motorcycles on Earth!!
Koen
I got the clutch parts and took everything apart. Looks like the problem was the plate tabs digging into the cage and probably causing everything to stick. Has anyone seen this before ? I filed all the seats smooth and hopefully that will do the trick.
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab162/ccmnova/DSC01066a.jpg) (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/ccmnova/media/DSC01066a.jpg.html)
It was also very difficult to get the clutch plate spines all lined up to fit on the splined shaft as an assembly - VERY difficult !
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab162/ccmnova/DSC01067.jpg) (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/ccmnova/media/DSC01067.jpg.html)
You need the tool to align the plates, its basically just a clutch hub.
Brian
I used the engine shaft to align them and it was super tough but I finally got them on.
You need to start with the gear then place the hub on it as pictured then build up the plates, springs and capscrews when all assembled pull out the hub
(http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll23/isdt75/PARTS/clutch%20hub_zpsnle4sowj.jpg)
Brian Taylor
But I didn't want to remove the hub - not sure how it comes out (?) I did manage to get the stack back on the splined shaft.
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab162/ccmnova/DSC01058.jpg) (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/ccmnova/media/DSC01058.jpg.html)
Did anyone see the way the tabs were digging into the outer cage ? Is this normal over time ? i could imagine that the tabs were then hanging up on the ridges that were being cut into the cage.
I also saw someone recommend type F transmission fluid and I beleive this is the correct type. Why does the manual from the bike written by John Penton say to use type A transmission fluid in cold weather (?) What is type A ?
Of the clutches I have done ( and not all Sachs clutches ) it happens quite often. the picture you show does seem to be a bit extreme though IMHO.....
Brian Taylor
Any tips for the best way to seal the clutch side cover? I have a new paper gasket but wonder if there is a product I can use to assure a good seal.
That sure is a very nice Penton.
Just for the record, new clutch baskets are available.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SACHS-NOS-Clutch-Case-0658-002-100-Penton-Tempo-Hercules-Monark-Ancillotti-125-/120815300557?hash=item1c21272fcd&vxp=mtr
Good luck.
Paul
Am I the only one drooling over the D cylinder ? Was that standard on the 74 ?
Don Roth since I didn't see a Frame # I am thinking this is a late 1974 or a 1975 (last year of the Sachs for Penton). And yes the D engine was in the bikes.
Ron Carbaugh
Thanks - I probably should have got a new basket but I managed to file the old one smooth in the areas where the tabs had dug in.
Quotequote:Originally posted by Paul Danik
That sure is a very nice Penton.
Just for the record, new clutch baskets are available.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SACHS-NOS-Clutch-Case-0658-002-100-Penton-Tempo-Hercules-Monark-Ancillotti-125-/120815300557?hash=item1c21272fcd&vxp=mtr
Good luck.
Paul
Is grease the best option for the paper gasket on the clutch cover ?
I used grease with the paper gasket and it seems good - no leaks. I also took your advice and put in a new shaft case seal and a new o-ring.
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab162/ccmnova/IMG_20150513_151535.jpg) (http://s860.photobucket.com/user/ccmnova/media/IMG_20150513_151535.jpg.html)