hi i found v335 last week it seems to have had a yellow frame and it has the black cast iron big bored cylinder that has a 60 mm piston anyone know anything about the 3 175 prototypes they built here is
video of Tom Penton talking about them mine must be the first one they built here is my picture site of bike been apart for many years no one knew what the motor was to replace piston
http://s624.photobucket.com/user/goliath99/library/1968%20Penton%20V335?sort=3&page=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgT5qLiKfAc
The machines that Tom Penton discussed were built on the later frame known as the CMF, or Chrome Moly Frame. The top end that was mated to the Sachs bottom end was of KTMs own design, as shown in this picture. The engine in this picture has a KTM bottom end, not a Sachs bottom end that was used in the machines that Tom discussed.
http://www.pentonusa.org/GalleryServerPro/default.aspx?moid=192&hr=1
The engine you have looks to be what is known as a 152cc conversion where a Yamaha 305 piston, the 305 Yamaha being a twin cylinder, is installed in the earlier cast iron Sachs cylinder. Those conversions are not exactly commonplace, nor are they extremely rare, but they do exist in sufficient numbers. Those engines are found mostly in frames such as yours which are known as Steel Tank Pentons as they have the medal gas tanks. As for the yellow paint, apparently over the years someone thought it was a good idea for some reason.
Hope this helps.
Paul
I had a 152 that was built @ Penton hdqtrs. If I remember correctly the Yamaha 305 pistons had to have the locating pin for rings moved or they would have lined up with a port. I had to replace piston a couple of times during the time I had the 152 motor in a 1969 Six Days 125.
Ted
alright in your model history page it said the fist prototype 152 was made in early 69 bronze silver sides then later that year more were made the cromoly framed bikes dident come out till 71 read for yourself my vin is late 68 dont you think the would have tried this combo before the custom painted one was built i can tell you this bike been apart for 40 years has 2 paint jobs over the yellow no silver under any of yellow paint the cad coating on the parts that were yellow they are brand new after i stripped paint here is the info on models also i looked tom pentons ama records up he won the cross country 176-200 cc in 1969 so he was not in the service then and what did he ride i wonder
http://www.pentonusa.org/prodyears/prodyears1.asp
You ask, what did Tom Penton ride to win the 176-200 cc Cross Country in 1969? I would say it would have been exactly what V 335 is, a 152cc conversion.
You say, V 335 has been apart for 40 years, that would mean it was disassembled in approximately 1975, it is a 1968 model, that is a large window of time where the 152cc conversion could have occurred.
But, most likely it was done in the early years of its use. It could have been ridden for a year, or two, or three before the conversion was done, possibly when the 125cc cylinder could no longer be bored any larger using a 125cc overbore piston. Or, it could have been done when the then owner saw that he could ride the Penton in the larger capacity class, just as Tom Penton had done. Those kits were available thru Penton imports as an accessory item.
If you click on the link below, you will be taken to a thread discussing the Penton that Tom Penton mentions in the video, and if you scroll down in the thread you will see one of those machines sitting in the bed of a pickup. That engine was built by Carl Cranke and has a Sachs bottom end with a KTM Jackpiner topend grafted to it.
http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15782
V 335 is a very nice find, and it is great that you have such an interest in figuring out its heritage.
Paul
thanks for info this bike was raced or built by a pro got all the tell tale signs and has to much custom stuff like the rear frame supports wired spokes a custom made 6 bolt sprocket hub to fit a 68 wheel if someone wanted a 6 bolt hub in 69 you buy a 69 wheel you dont make a one of a kind hub, has alloy rims with dents so it was rode hard i removed the rest of the paint from swing arm with paint remover to see if it had been blasted under yellow paint and it was not sand blasted ,now for motor what did they use as a top connecting rod bearing mine has a brass bushing yamaha needle bearing is 16x20 mm sachs is 16x19 mm the new aftermarket rods look like they are 20mm and the notches in my piston are to do with matching ports ,so if my bike has all these mods who do you think built a 68 modified race bike i can only think of one
i am putting bike back together with yellow frame someone is going to recognize it. also this bike is in Canada
thanks Udo
Lets address items one at a time.
The six bolt hub. The original four bolt hubs would often brake if the rubber drive cushions were not properly maintained, and possibly some even broke if the drive rubbers were maintained as that drive unit came from a street application and was found to not be durable enough. Most machines that came with 4 bolt drive units were upgraded to the later hubs at some time, what is rare, is to find a machine with the original 4 bolt hubs and drive units in proper operating condition.
Wiring the spokes. A rather common practice "back in the day".
The brass top end bushing. The Yamaha piston used in those conversions had a larger wrist pin diameter than the Sachs piston, so the brass top end bushing needed reamed out to accommodate it. The earlier Sachs engines used in the Penton had aluminum rods and brass top end bushings. The later engines had steel rods with a needle bearing on the top.
Alloy rims. What is unusual is to find the original very soft Boraini rims still on an early Penton, many early bikes eventually had upgraded rims. When the original four bolt rear hubs broke many times a complete, later style wheel assembly was installed, including those rims.
The notches on top of the piston. You answered that question properly, they were cut into the piston to match the ports.
Who built the bike you ask. My guess is that the modifications and updates occurred over a period of years as the weak links in the original design started to show up, and as the conversions like the 152cc kits became available. As far as who did them, possibly several owners over a period of time, or one owner who kept the bike for many years.
The yellow paint. As far as thinking it was Tom Penton, or something the Pentons did themselves as a "special". If the Penton Family, or any of their team riders did any special modifications to their machines to test a "new idea", or possible future modification, they took extra care to not bring it to the attention of everyone. They surely would not paint their motorcycle yellow. I have seen hundreds, if not thousands of photos of Pentons over the years, and have never seen a Steel Tanker painted yellow by any of the Penton folks.
Please post some photos of the bike when you do get it together, sounds interesting.
Paul
Thanks Paul i will take better pictures of rear hub to show you and i am going to ask Helmut Clasen about this bike it might have come from him
Thanks udo
I pretty much covered all these topics on a Facebook discussion. V335 is a great find, but I dont think there is any special about it beyond that its an early Steel Tanker with a 152cc kit. The bikes Tom is talking about in the YouTube video are clearly CMF bikes with KTM top ends on Sachs bottom ends, he is asked when these bikes were made and he says after he got out of the Air Force, Paul or others can probably say when Tom was in the Air Force, but I know it was after the CMFs came out.
Brian
Udo,
You are quite welcome, and by the way, Welcome to the Penton Owners Group message board family :D Please keep us abreast of your progress.
Paul
ok i took some better pictures of motor and the other special parts as you can see i have a black top end which is odd also had black front motor mounts to match cylinder, home made looking rod bearing also motor has been ported to the max no amateur built this hope this will help you pros identify it
thanks udo
http://s624.photobucket.com/user/goliath99/library/1968%20Penton%20V335?sort=3&page=1
Thanks for the pictures. I really do not see anything out of the ordinary. Like Paul said it is a nice find on a early 1968 Penton. I have several of the piston pin bushing. Thanks for sharing.
Ron Carbaugh
This is an interesting read. Thanks Paul for the info. There was a penton dealer the next town over from me back in the day. He also sold Saracen. I never heard of the pentons getting the 152 kit but a friend of mine has a 125 Saracen with the 152 kit. He's owned the bike since the early 70s. Saracens had Sachs engines in them. I'm working on buying the Saracen from him. Hopefully he will let it go soon.
73 Jackpiner
73 Husky 360 WR/RT
76 Husky WR360
78 husky cr250
82 husky wr430
10 ktm 250xc
02 bmw r1150r
I'm even more certain that is the 152 kit from Penton because it has the alloy "high compression" head, not the stock "butch" iron head or the standard alloy top end head. Almost all of the 152 kits had the high compression head like in your pictures. As Paul mentioned the bushing was used to adapt the Yamaha 16mm wrist pin to the Sachs rod which had a 15mm wrist pin. Pretty much all standard 152 kit stuff.
Brian
And as several have said, even if its not some kind of prototype its still great to find a very low number Steel Tanker like v335.
Brian
thanks for the input so it is a penton cylinder kit now the rear drive hub got me baffled if someone bought this kit in 1970 when it was introduced and put it on a 1968 bike why would you not replace the 4 bolt wheel hub i am a tool and die maker to make the hub a lathe and a mill with rotatory table would have been required and the work this part takes to make you would have been able to buy 2 new wheels so it was made when nothing else was available in 68 i bet so why would my bike need such a heavy drive hub in 1968 only one reason had big motor now having penton cylinder kit on bike wouldn't that kit be the exact same as the bike they tested it on , the copper color bike fist prototype 152 made early 1969 was not the test bike someone had to test the concept first so they most certainly put some top ends on bikes and beat the crap out of them lol to see if it would work wouldn't you agree this bike has way to many red flags what dummy would paint a first year penton frame yellow this was done to make it look different
From what I see in your pictures the hub appears stock and its the sprocket carrier that is modified/fabricated? The 4 bolt hubs/carrier broke with the stock 125 engine so its not necessarily from having a big bore engine that it broke and needed to be modified. Maybe the owner was a machinist or owned a machine shop and it was easier/cheaper to fabricate a sprocket carrier? Who knows. You see all kinds of inexplicable modifications on these old bikes, many times they do not make any sense to us now but to the person at the time it was perfectly logical.
Brian
A more probable explanation is early Pentons were not thought to be valuable by anyone back in 1971-1975. At that time they were just old, and many were wore out, dirt bikes. Guys who could not afford a new modern bike fixed up what they found. Tried to make it competitive with current offerings. All the welding and repairing (crude) done to the frame was not of the type Penton Bros would have ever done. Not meaning to rain on your thoughts Goliath but this is a more logical conclusion than this being the "first" 152.
Ted
I mentioned the crude welding also, I know for a fact that welds like that would not be allowed on a bike built in house at Penton.
Brian
the crude welding is on the repairs those back plates welded to rear of frame are cut to the exact contour of tubes out of a single sheet of plate steal and as you can see those welds are good this was no armature job a racer would have cut 3 pieces of 3/4 bar then welded them in then the 2 extra tabs on the outside rear top motor mount were added also the bike was then painted yellow i have scraped the impossible to get at spots to see if it has any silver and no trace and the yellow paint is a real professional job and i can tell that it was done very early prob 69-70 then the yellow was covered up with gray primer and white paint this is a amateur paint job you would expect as first paint job over factory paint then the motor i can not tell you when it was built i can only tell you it is a penton 152 on its 3rd piton cylinder not fixable skirt cracked and bored to max
guys i am an expert at this i been building my own cars and bikes and restoring rare vehicles for 30 years and compete in vintage expert trials i am #2 plate in my area check out my other pictures http://s624.photobucket.com/user/goliath99/library/?sort=3&page=4
And i appreciate your help see these fist year bikes are rare and the history is worth more than the value not often you find a raced modified 1968 alloy rimed big bore penton wouldent you guys agree
Thanks Udo
I just finished talking to Helmut Clasen what a nice guy turns out we are from same area in Germany and he moved to the exact city in canada when we came here lol he invited me to come visit he also thinks it was a custom paint job and he dos not remember it so guys ready to paint frame any suggestions on how i should put this bike back together
Thanks Udo
Back to stock would be the way to go
Personally I would wait for a GOOD frame to show up of the right vintage and if you have original paperwork showing V335 or a title I would weld over the serial number, finish smooth, re-stamp with your number and put everything back to stock. If you have no paperwork leave new frame number alone and rebuild with your parts. Might find a frame here if you ask, if your lucky. Your frame is pretty far gone to mess with in my opinion. By the way, with a torch you can form bar stock exactly like yours was. No need to cut out of plate and it would still be one piece. Personally I would never gusset down tubes that way because of what it looks like when finished.
Also your crankshaft had a steel rod I believe and that dates your 152 to at least late 1969. If the crank was a1968 it would be aluminum rod. My 152 engine was a 1969 with aluminum rod. Ted
I agree with thrownchain. Stock is what will help preserve history. I have probably owned 10 1968/69 that were modified and I always tried to bring them back to original. You own it and it is your choice. Do you live in SoCal?
Ron Carbaugh
My '70 Berkshire had an aluminum con rod,until it broke into a bazillion pieces and grenaded the entire bottom end.(v2420)
When i fist saw frame first thing i said about the rear braces what retard tried to make a slay out of it lol then what dummy paints a fist year penton frame yellow i think i will cut the braces off the rear since they are stupid anyway lol then will powder coat frame back to silver , motor i already have a replacement 48mm cast cylinder and a standard bore yamaha 305 piston and rings on way , i am going to keep the 152 now since this bike was apart some parts got lost and mixed up it was bought 30 years ago with bunch of other bikes an parts it had a bultaco top tree missing original one the forks are 1971 they put the wrong ones in pile seat is a metal pan and i need a front fender mount rear fender and center stand other than that it is complete i want to put bike back together proper like it was
Thank Udo
I just took a look at the rear sprocket carrier, that is very interesting, as are all the other modifications.
Personally, I like all of the "character" of your Steel Tanker. I feel it tells a story of how someone tried to make the old Penton keep on going when possibly others would have set it aside.
Over the years, possibly because of a lack of funds, or possibly just being the type of person who was going to make do with what he had, someone put their imagination and time into those modifications/repairs.
I would give much thought to possibly carefully reconstructing the Penton as it is. So the welds are rough, in my mind I can picture a person doing the very best they could with what they had, both in skills and tools/machinery, and hats off to them for their Yankee ingenuity.
I would be proud to reconstruct and show V 335 at any event, and I will guarantee you that if you do you will draw a crowd as that machine has character and personality. It would be much fun to just sit and talk with folks who would try to figure the whys and hows of that machine, and most likely they would be reminded of some of the things they did to their long ago forgotten machines to keep them going.
And you Golith, with all you are learning with such enthusiasm, you will be a great ambassador for Penton and will know what has been modified, and what would have been "correct" from the factory.
Having a 1968 Penton Steel Tanker with such a low serial number and much character, that is a Great find !
Paul
well said, Paul Danik :)
Another Richard agrees with Paul...
Richard Colahan
1969 V1225
Upper Black Eddy PA
Yes, it is what it is!
There are a lot of original, rebuilt and restored bikes out there so to see a custom modified bike from back in the day would hold a place in time.
Some of the mods were pretty interesting considering the year they most likely were made. Not everyone had access to good equipment or the variety we have available today.
Dan.
yes point well taken i am actually considering racing it i would love to see how a fully modded fist year penton works that would be a one in a lifetime thing to get to race a 1st year penton now i am in Ontario Canada we have a big vintage fest Tom Penton was here this year and Helmut Clasen still races love to race with him my bike is in decent shape i can just paint frame fix it ride it then finish restoring it to perfect after next year.
Thanks for input
Cheers Udo
I've been reading this thread and would like to cast a vote for rebuilding it as found, and for all the reasons Paul Mentioned. Sounds like you have the critical engine parts already. I'm doing something similar with a '75 Penton 400 that I'm pretty sure was built up from parts. I've related the story before. Nothing on the bike matches what should be on a '74/'75 bike along with a lot of other little "touches" that tell me it was built up by a serious enduro rider. There are plenty or real nice stock restorations out there, and it saves me a bunch of money trying to find OEM parts! So again, I vote for "improving" what may be substandard as far as welding goes, and rebuilding it as found.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
I agree would be a shame to hide what was done lots of restored bikes not many old race bikes and they are way more interesting so sending all the parts that were yellow out for powder tomorrow to have it redone and it is kind of cool leaving the original dented rims and tank they show how it was used also do you guy know about vintage tires this will tell last time bike ran front is almost new Avon gripster rear barum s9a i know they are old just not sure how old here is pic http://s624.photobucket.com/user/goliath99/library/1968%20Penton%20V335?sort=3&page=1
Thanks Udo
My '72 Berkshire has also been modified, the rear frame loop was cut and shortened, the lower shock mount was moved 3" forward, it has a modified pipe, and a larger than stock Bing carb. I would never put the bike back to stock because the bike is a showcase for "period modifications". There are many more totally stock bikes already out there, so I'll side with putting it back just like it is. I would have to paint the frame silver, but other than that I like the idea of building it back with its modifications intact.
Brian
see the repairs were done under the yellow paint rear loop was broken off and one foot peg mount was replaced so it odiously was silver when fist raced those repairs where awful now rear brace and rear beefed up motor mounts which shows me they were done when motor was built up looks better so i think it was there before the yellow then repairs were done by some ass then painted yellow you know early 70s lots of drugs would explain color choice so silver it is lol
thanks again Udo