I'm curious to find out how many 125 MX framed Pentons are out there. For the 1975 model year Penton introduced a 125 MX bike that had a different frame than the Enduro model.The MX version had one bolt hole in the swingarm for shock mounting and it had three mount positions in the frame to lay down the shocks for increased travel (very similiar to the 175/250/400 frames of that year).I have a old " Keeping Track " that shows the 1975 line up.If anybody has one of these MX models ,please advise. Thanks
I have one of those. It has a 411 serial and Sachs 6D engine. It's mostly complete, but
currently in the early restoration stage.
John J Slivka
I gave Mark Annan a picture of a bike like you are describing. He should be back from vacation this weekend and maybe he can scan it and send it to you. Dennis
I have one also.I raced it in that first Penton only moto at mid-ohio,1998 I think.It handles great,I rode it at the Arizona National this year in 125 Sportsman Exp.I don't think very many were sold.The CR-125 era began in 74 and Euro 125 sales tanked!
I had one of those with a D motor and it was sold to Ted Landers who races it.
I have a 125 like you described with serial #412. I bought it six years ago and am currently restoring it. It's exactly like the one I raced in 1975.
Randy Kirkbride
Yes I have one I bought from Larry. I love it. If it only didn't have 9 gears (5 speeds and 4 neutrals). It handles gloriously and has lots of power when it is in gear. Phil Ketchum is campaigning to get AHRMA to allow reed valved 100cc Hodakas run in the 125cc Classic class. I told him to reed valve his bike and bring it to Moberly on Sept 8 for the MOVMX race and we would see if they were comparable. Let's hope I only have 5 or 6 gears that day and that Pentons prevail. Teddy
Well gentlemen,I count 5 including mine.I thought there maybe only a dozen or so.Ted,if yours has that many neutrals maybe you should talk with Doug W. or at least learn to adjust the tranny.Mine only has 6 gears and 1 neutral and I run it almost every week at the local track,rarely missing a shift.It just takes time to keep adjusted and you must be very positive at shifting.Hell,I run in the CRA sanctioned vintage series and have always come out of turn one in second or third (CRA runs all size vintage bikes together),it sure is fun to give 250's and 400's a run with 125 !
When I bought it from Larry, he said Doug had come to his shop and set up the transmission. It really doesn't have a million neutrals, it just consistantly finds the neutral between 1st and 2nd. You cannot shift fast from 1st to 2nd, you have to be deliberate, so deliberate that your competition gets by you while shifting. The best technique I have for not letting this happen is to NEVER shift down to 1st, just slip the clutch in 2nd. Sometimes there is a neutral between 2nd and 3rd also. Oh well, c'est la vie. Teddy
Ted,Being a AHRMA competitor,have you ran your 125 in any Sportsman classes and how do you think the bike faired against the competiton ?
Hi Karl, when you said " I thought there may be only a dozen or so", I am wondering, do you have information as to how many of a certain model were produced? or was that a guess as to how many members might respond? Thanks, Bob.
There were not good records kept on what was made and what was sold. This has come up before.
Ted, Doug did the motor at his place and sent it to me actually. The hot set-up on racing the Sachs was to gear it low enough to do second gear starts and make first a bail out gear. This dodges the worst potential neutral. You have ridden the bike a bit now you might be due for a selector key or key and selector rod. We replaced selector keys every five or six races back in "The Day" but I have always been a bang shifter. I would always buy that bike back if you ever want to.
Karl the 125 Sachs powered Penton can not really compete with the Sportsman bikes if l riders are equal. McDougal recently won in that class at expert level with a very trick one but he was by far the superior rider. Back in the last year of "The Day" I and the shop I rode for banged our heads against the wall and out on the tracks of Texas trying to beat the Elsinore and what began to come after it. When you got the bike fast enough it would begin to lose reliability and even when the shifting was spot on with a KOBE shift kit at the wrong moment in the heat of the battle it would blow a shift. Once the real Japanese race bikes came here the writing was on the wall. I think I won one of the last National races in MX on a Sachs powered machine but it was on a Berkshire in the 100cc Schoolboy class in the GNC in the Astrodome. In the 100cc class the Japanese still had bikes that were converted trailbikes and it was a year or two away from the RM 100 and the YZ 100. What came first that took me off that bike were sleeved down E.C. Birt 100cc Elsinores.
Question for you.According to AHRMA Rule 11.1.4 Classic 125:Eligible machines include Sachs 125/5A or 6A,125/5B or 6B,does this exclude the 125/6D ?
Karl,
I haven't run it in Sportsman class but I keep going to races where Phast Phil Ketchum's Hodaka dies and I loan him my Six Day so he can ride. He then rides in the sportsman class because that is where the Hodaka was. He hasn't won on it yet, but he was in first place against a 125cc Husky (I think) ridden by Chenowith and about 6 other bikes, but missed a shift just before the end and couldn't make it up. He says the Penton handles better, has great power and has fantastic brakes compared to his bike. Also, the 6D Sachs is legal for 125cc Classic as I read it in the rules.
Larry, what's a KOBE shift kit? Are they the fix for the shifting problems? Are they available or do you know how to make one? Also, what sprocket ratios did you use for the second gear starts? I might go to Chadwick again this weekend, wanna go?
There is another part in the rules that includes all Sachs powered machines as Classic bikes and it would also be included in like design. There is exclusion on all Classic bikes that show extra-ordinary horsepower. There are some D bikes and others that have the booster ports added in the back and one of these could be that fast. That is the way we built them back at the end of "The Day". I believe the Monark factory bikes were like this and a few of those sleeves are around. I smell one from where I sit. This is where reliability goes out the window. Rings no longer last long and a long straight or too many missed shifts with an internal rotor flywheel and the rod goes Ka Wham. Even without that I remember passing on a long straight with a smile and then blowing a shift and being repassed with a frown.
Okay I am going to let the cat out of the bag. My OPINION is if you want the fastest and most reliable Sachs with the best results and cost is no big deal follow this formula:
1.Use the LA Sleeve copy of the D GS sleeve. It has got the widening and raising of exhaust and intake similar to the GS and has lowered transfers like the GS but has extra ring protection by bridging the exhaust port.
2.Run a Wiseco single ring forged piston. 3.Match the cases to the cylinder.
4.Change rings on a regular basis.
5.Stuff the crank holes with cork and epoxy.
6.Use a PVL internal rotor ignition.
7.Run some type of Snub pipe like the FMF style or better yet a down pipe if you can find it.
8.Learn to or have someone get the shifting as spot on as possible and start out with a new selector rod and key.
9.Replace selector keys on a regular basis.
10.Use a short shifter for less leverage.
11.Gear low enough that first is a bail-out gear and second gear starts are easy.
12.Stick with the Classic class because what you built is short of a great Sportsman bike but is virtually a cheater bike againt the Classic competition.
13.Practice, practice, practice. In the end it is you and your technique. I have fallen off many a super-fast bike in my years of racing and none of them went far on their own.
That is my opinion and if anybody has any questions on it give me an e-mail or call and I will try to help.
Ted,
Kobe; and I think I am spelling it right, had hardened chromed shifting parts and adjustment instructions that took into account the fact that MXers tend to shift harder on the upshift than on the down side. I have not seen one of these kits in a long time. You could have the parts like the selector key chromed. The selector rod is already like that when new. The trouble is the key was designed to wear and when it doesn't then there are more gear troubles down the road than with the stock key. I think if you adjust like the Kobe and replace the key fairly often and have a good selector rod it will be as optimum as the design allows which is far from perfect. That is a big reason they allow such a new bike in Classic class.
I think gearing can range somewhere between 12-52 and 13-64 depending on track. I like gearing better with the 13 countershaft sprocket because it does not wrap the chain up too tight. The chain throw problem is lessened. Be sure and run a case protector with these bikes if you race them you will save cases sooner or later.
Chadwick? I would sure love too but I am supposed to go watch 4 of my pigeons race in Oklahoma City this weekend. It is a Futurity Race with about $10,000 prize money. Now everybody knows I am a freak. Just another one of my hobbies guys. If I don't go Ted, I would love to show you guys around some of my favorite parts of Chadwick. If not then another day. Thanks for the invite.
I have the pictures, but no scanner at the moment. I'll see if I can get my wife to take them to work and scan them for me. From what I can see in the picture it looks like the bike still uses 32mm forks, I thought it would have 35's.
Hey guys,
A note on Larry's commit on the chrome shifting key........If you have it done, make sure you find the best chrome guy around. Nothing worse than the chrome peeling off and messing up everything else. This happened to us a long time ago. Chrome pieces in the bearings are not too good. However, if they are done properly, they should not peel and will help with the shift key wear.
Donny
Larry, as part of your "Fastest and Most Reliable" recommendations, what is your preference for the carb? I don't know what the "D" engines came with or what they were fitted with for optimum breating.
Glenn
I always forget some things. Age and too much fun will do that.
The 28mm newer style Bing(Type 84) is what most of those used. There are two types and two types of cylinders. The slide over type with the fiber throat bushing and the pop in type.
The best set-up is the cylinder that has the rubber mount that looks like a Mikuni mount. This requires the pop in spigot mount Type 84.
The next best thing is a reamed out spigot to match the 28mm better with an aluminum sleeve over it so the slide on Type 84 will work.
You can run a 30mm but it is alot more work down low and I think most of the ones that did had the boost ports in the back.
Okay now I will put in the parts plug since it relates. Sorry always the salesman. I have some of these carbs used and several NOS shells. Also have one real used cylinder that will need a sleeve soon of the type with rubber spigot carb mount. In case anyone desires them.
Larry,
do you have one of the old instruction sheets from the kobe shift kit?
If you do i would like to get it posted in our Library.
John
Edited by - john durrill on 08/27/2002 09:24:48 AM
Larry, do you mean that running a 30mm causes a shorter powerband than the 28? I've got a like-new 30mm Mikuni that came on my junker Jackpiner (the owner thought it needed a new carb, but it was the Motoplat!)
I have a slip-on adaptor for the Sachs cylinder to fit the bolt-on carb. Do you have any experience with the Mikunis?
John, I don't have any of those instructions but basically instead of adjusting throw even on the up and down you adjust with less throw on the upside. I think Doug Wilford could perhaps explain it better and confirm my thinking and memory. He is the master.
Glenn, I think the larger the carb the more top and less bottom. I know it begins to be harder to ride and more clutch work is necessary. Of course clutch feathering is a part of HOT 125 racing both back in "The Day" and now. John Durill has more the rocket science brain and could explain the physics of this and confirm whether my thinking is right. John?
I have Trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time guys. chuckle chuckle
so my rocket science would look like the first days of Nasa trying to get a satellite in orbit!!!!
Your Right Larry,
The larger you go in bore size on a carb the less vacuum you have at lower RPM"s. the Carb doesn't meter as well and it makes it harder to ride at low rpm settings. the transition between circuits in the carb is not as smooth.
I had a big single Honda street bike ,a GB 500 that we bored out to 600 cc . it came with a 42 mm Kehin CV carb. I Need to change the carb and got a 40mm Mikuni RS. thought it was smaller so it should run fine. The guys at Sudco tried to talk me out of it and into a 38 mm. the 40 mm RS flows like a 44 mm CV.
well the upshot was I never could get the 40 mm RS to run right. I would have had to change the cam for a full race one to get it to work . that would have made it a bear to drive in town.
Now if the 125 Glen has was reed kitted with a reed off say a 250 now then the 30 mm would work fine I think. the reed would allow you to run a bigger carb and not loose too much in the bottom and mid range.
the stock 27 and 1/2 works good. and 28 mm mikunis work good on the 125.
skipperclyde has one on his sons 125 sixdays and it runs great. he can give you the jetting info and how he addapted the intake and air boot so it fits right .
John & Peter
Be aware that with AHRMA if you use a reed valve the bike automatically becomes a Sportsman class bike and is no longer a Classic class bike.
I have a 77 100, Sachs motor, that has 3 shock mounting holes in the frame and 3 on the swingarm.
Rocket
Rocket,
It sounds like you have the very best Sachs engine powered Penton / KTM made. the reliabillty of the little Sachs motor. the good power it makes with long time between rebuilds . And all the travel front and rear most folks need to run enduros and trail ride.
i would hang on to that one.
John
John
I believe the 77 100 will be a keeper for my collection, seems like it may be a rare animal!!
Rocket
Larry, do you have the LA Sleeve part number for the D GS sleeve? I e-mailed them and they were drawing a blank without a part number.
Thanks.
Glenn,
I think I have a couple yet. I don't know if they still make them. E-mail me Monday to remind me to look.