Penton Owners Group

This topic may tourque off a few people. After all motocross(and enduro, trials, road racing, cross country etc.) is a sport I think of incomparable camaraderie and sportsmanship.

 I had a friend who traded cars quite frequently. He always said that he would pay for good condition-original condition over a specific model or options. He never had GTO's or such but nice 70's T/A's vettes etc.
I remeber he had some MX 360 Yamahas and some other less desirable models. (of course I couldn't find an MX360 at all when I wanted one). The point is he always had clean bikes and if he wanted to sell to get another clean bike-he usually broke even on the purchase price.

 It is imperative to the continuation of this hobby that we dismantle some bikes, restore as many as we can and make some new parts. That said it is still frustrating at times to only be able to find near basket cases as the only reasonably priced models  of some more sought after models. (Mint 400, ANY Mc5, 440 aw Maico, 440 gp Maico and I'm sure the list could go on).

 Now recently I have noticed a change. For the first time in a long time I sold some parts. I sold them on E-bay and got reasonable prices for them. I had to sell bikes(losing a lot every time) when I just needed the money. I used to only trade parts-due to the fact that: If somone else had an MC5 brake pedal-it was rare and worht a mint-If I had it -it was not worth ANYTHING. So when somone wanted those Fox Airs they had to get me something I needed or wanted. Again it seems that recently we are buying and selling more reasonably and frequently than in the past. (I'm sure ther aere exceptions). I want to thank you here as I feel you have cultivated an enviorment of getting people involved and keeping them involved.

 The recent steals on bikes( how about a 1981 Carabela 250 mx for 1000 reserve on e bayhere in Tucson too. Larry Perkins old 420 going for 900 and a 77 440 Maico listed as 75 that will go for a low reserve) are funny to me. I think it due to the economy now-and will not continue long.

 I am postponing my 420 project for now as I see a very clean original going for 900. I will look hader for a cleaner scoot this fall.It just seems that the earlier KTMs hold a bit more of their value as do some of the Maicos.

   Finally I am not whining (okay I am) about losing money on bikes. I am not trying to profit from my hobby. It just seems tough to put 3k into a machine and know that if you wanted to sell it to get a different bike that it would be worth only 1/3 of what you put in( I am saying #2 or 3 condition-a very clean racer not a show bike).

 Just looking for some opinions and feedback..Thanks, James

I have bike parts in the kitchen cabinets where most people have dishes..

I hear you guys, at over $200 to build a seat, gas tanks bringing $150 to $250, wheels over $100 or the $600 it takes to have buchannons build a pair, $200 pistons, so on and so on. Why will a race ready bike only bring $1500 - $2500?

Dennis Jones

James, Rob, It is not that there isn't anyone out here reading this string, it's just that it is extremely difficult to justify having this much fun....and to this, how much is fun actually worth. I have owned only 8 cycles, mostly Euro mx and Brit street stuff. I have never intentionally set out to restore a single one of them, but they were all sold in great shape,I repair fuss overem a bit and sell for at least what I originally purchased them for. The money's I spend in doing this is not expected to be returned.(nice if it's close tho') I have always had some project to keep me sANE and it is far cheaper than golf. I think a lot of people are getting ready for VMD too. Just some loose ramblings that may help to understand this hobby. GC

GC

I live in Souther California and I gotta say that the price of vintage bikes out here sometimes are outrageous. I saw where someone paid over $6,000.00 for a CZ. At Vintage Iron they have a 440 Maico with a $8,500.00 Price tag on it. I myself have paid more than I should have for a bike that's in show condition, but would never pay that much for a rider. How about A husquvarna with a $10,000.00 price on it? Saw one of those at the Del Mar Mile and bike show last year.

Thanks for responses. I actually think people respond here quite a bit.

I guess if vintage moto x cost twice what it does I would still do it.

Some are getting ready for VMD-wish I was will be next year.

 The $900 420 KTM thing...my wife dropped off my motor to Bobby to look at last week and Bobby said he had ridden this bike for 2 yrs. So.. maybe it wasn't as clean as I remember....

 How much is fun worth? Well my best working asst. mgr was hurt yesterday on his bike.
He just overshot a jump. Ankle requires surgery pins etc. I will miss him bad since he gets a ton of work done at the store.
 How about that for an addition to the topic? Seen more fatalities and serious injuries in the past 5 yrs than ever before? I like my chances racing vintage better than modern. What do you think?

 James in Tucson (but it's a DRY heat)

I have bike parts in the kitchen cabinets where most people have dishes..

Muscle cars or vintage bikes, we hear questions all the time about the value of them.  It all boils down to one thing, they're worth what someone will pay for them.  If someone will pay you $3500 for your 73 Jackpiner, then it was a $3500 bike. Even though I need parts once in a while, I still hate to see a Penton motorcycle parted out.  If I were active in this hobby just with the thought of making money, I probably would have got out of it long ago.  Just think though, maybe in twenty years that $3500 Jackpiner may be worth $10,000.

 

Quotequote:
Have you ever been over to the Vinduro site, they have 550 members, and 10 guys that actually say something. I hope it does'nt become that way here.

Are you a member of Vinduro ?

Have you ever posted there introducing yourself and explaining your vintage cycle interests ?

Do you ever post at Vinduro or do you just lurk ?

Many POG members also belong to Vinduro yet no one posts anything there. Why is that ?

I am going to jump in here because you are hitting on a topic that comes up frequently in groups I run with.

The bikes that we are interested in are only as valuable (in terms of dollars) as the money you get from the buyer, no more no less.

Just like muscle cars or collector cars, the trends as a whole are cyclical and certain models do better at certian times than others.  You can also do better (at certain times) in other parts of the country.  (A short wheel base early 70's BMW 75/5 will do much better in the northeast then midwest at the moment.)

In terms of value to me, they are mechanical wonders!  I have dragged home some sorry pieces of rust and spent way too much money, time and sweat getting the bike back to usable condition.  Not a restoration mind you, just usable.

Just the other day, I came across an old metal SAFEWAY wagon in a trash pile.  I convinced my trash hauler to drop it at my house on the way by.  Why? I have no idea other than it looked like it needed to be saved.

It is my hobby.  My wife and kids know that if they cant find me, try the shop.  And if some strange charge shows up on the CC that my wife cant explain, she nows it will end up being MC (or car) parts or service.

It just kills me to see a bike in a salvage yard, rusting away.  Same for cars.  I have saved several that should have gone to the dump, but I just couldnt resist.  I consider myself lucky to break even and if I can keep it to a 10% loss, then I have a resonably cheap hobby.

I always try to watch the 'value' of recent projects (cars or bikes) on @bay, Hemmings, Old Car and Cycle Trader, and here.  I think that the www has opened up markets for bikes and parts to those that did not make the trips to search out the parts

I have made some great friends and met hundreds of great people because of my chosen hobby.  

My two cents.
AndyL (some call it a sickness, I call it a hobby.)
Several Hodaka's
A Jackpiner
A 67 Chevelle SS Convert
A SAFEWAY wagon
and a BMW 75/5 coming soon

Well...

I too got caught up in the restoration game, spent waay too much for a thrashed 125 husky, that I wound up having to completely re-do..spent twice (easily) what it is worth to make it right..then I turn around and buy one already done, just like mine, for 1350.00..I learned my lesson..since restoration is not my forte, I'll buy them already redone, and go have fun..I know some derive pleasure from the rebuilding process, and some from racing them..I'll stick to what I know and do best..Anyone who does this restoration stuff for profit is either very saavy, or deluded..I know some make a profit, but its hard to do..it seems some can do a "race restoration", and keep it relatively inexpensive..but when you're doing a show or new cond restoration, it gets waay expensive and time consuming, neither of which you will be compensated for, in my limited opinion..but who does this vintage stuff for profit anyway?? this is therapy for me..and alot cheaper than a psychiatrist..

Bart Carrigan

Hi Guys,

Heres' my two cents. I have restored several vintage bikes. Why? Because I enjoy doing it. Of course it is a drag to put in $3K and get out $2k but I always tell myself that this is my hobby and  you can't very well expect someone else to pay for your hobby. There have been times where I actually break even (not counting my labor, which, unlike my employees, is free) so when that happens someone else actually does pay for my hobby, which is great! Not too long ago I hurt my knee and had to quit racing for a while. With the downtime I figured I would restore my 1974 Six-Day. I put lots of time and money into and it turned out quite nice. I enjoyed every minute of it, but when it was done, it really was too nice to race. At this point I didn't know what to do with it. I loved the restoration process but now what? I took it to a show being held in conjunction with a Vintage race and before I could get it off my truck, someone offered to buy it. I didn't know what it was worth, nor did I know how much I had into it, but the offer of $3,500 seemed fair, so I sold it. I doubt I made money, but I had a blast building it, the new owner was happy as could be and I ended up with a few sheckels in my pocket to start my next project.

 

Bob, I knew that might hit a nerve with someone, like I said, I meant no offense, it is only a observation of mine, I've been wrong before. I have been a Vinduro member for almost a year, I think it's a great group of guys, and a fun site to visit. I met up with some other Vinduro members at the Reunion Ride last Oct. I have nothing but good things to say about each of them. Bob Rigby helped me out so much, I probably could'nt have got 2 miles without his help.  I have made some postings in the past with no replies back, but that really did'nt bother me in the least. I probably go to the web site about once a week and "lurk" as you say. I'm not trying to break into the inner circle, the regulars seem to be close, and there's alot inside stuff that does'nt concern me. I'm a MX guy that loves to ride in the woods, I grew up in some of the greatest woods riding areas in the world, I've always wished I had gone into enduro riding, but I took a different direction back then. In a few years from now when my ahrma mx slows down, I hope to start some kind of a push to see if vintage enduros can't be organized in some fashion. I think the Reunion Ride is awesome, and I know the Vinduro group has alot to do with that, so I thank them very much. No hard feelings please.

 

I picked up an old, abused Penton to satisfy the need to "have" a piece of my youth.  But I had a piece of junk.  To recreate the condition of a 30-year-old race bike back to '70s fresh, just costs a lot.  As Bob said, you can spend $6,000 on a new high-tech thumper, but that's not what we're in it for.  I spent $3,000 to recreate a '72 Six-Day racebike.  Hitting the track feels just the same as 30 years ago.  The bike is fast and handles great, much better than I remembered.  I've found what I was looking for in acquiring a vintage Penton, and more.  What's that worth?


Glenn


 

Quotequote:
I have made some postings (to Vinduro ) in the past with no replies back

I always receive answers to my newbie - type technical questions. I get replies from ISDT vets as well as knowledgable guys who have been working on '70's bike for years. There is a wealth of knowledge there. The group will also help you fill your garage, shed, and house with vintage bikes if that is your thing. We are all motorcycle lovers and collecting addicts who are glad to support other's addictions.

Quotequote: I'm not trying to break into the inner circle, the regulars seem to be close, and there's alot inside stuff that does'nt concern me.

While it appears cliqueish it really isn't so. There are several on-going jokes that are posted for amusement. They will accept anyone into their inner circle, whether your interest is a Suzuki 90 or a Maico 501. You must have a love of vintage bikes. They really prefer the content to be ISDT or enduro type vintage bikes, but  a large number of members race MX too.

Quotequote:no hard feelings please.

None here. I just thought I'd point out that if you lurk there and later complain that no one posts anything, then maybe your non-participation is a contributing factor to the quiet board. Just an observation.




Edited by - Bob on 07/14/2003  3:17:03 PM

James,
I feel fortunate to have found this group of guys at POG that have given me cause to revive a piece of my youth. I have had my Berkshire since '74-'75 and could never part with it. It needed some parts and I always thought that I would get back to it sooner. But life gets turned around sometimes and we loose track. Granted, it would not have cost me as much in the past, but to re-live the excitement of days gone by, it will be well worth it. Now I am tickling the fancy of my 8 year old daughter, who is always wanting to ride around the backyard on my CR250. I guess when the Penton is finished, I'll have to get her a "cool little orange" KTM as she calls them, and she, my wife, and I can go out to the Francis Marion Nat. Forest and have fun showing her what its like. Yes, the costs of our vices can be high, but the memories that they revive, and the ones that are to be made are well worth it. I for one am restoring mine to keep forever.

Robert Manucy
72 Berkshire

Yes it is worth it... No matter what you can do on a modern bike ti will never have the pure asthetic adrenaline rush of the vintage racers. My first visit to a motocross was in 1973-at the age of five.
Must have been impressionable. In 1990 I saw the TVRC at (Mosier Valley?) a track and couldn't beleive it. Then Allen Christiasen tol me one night that he was racing vintage. I really thought he was kidding. It really seemed too good to be true.

 I guess I should remeber that and the friends along the way. I bought the Penton i had in 92. Probably put 4k in it til 98. Got it sold for about $1200 in 2001. Really not bad and yes it is good to rebuild something nearly from the trash and eventually get it almost pristine and very fast!!

BTW Brian ( my asst mgr at the store) will have screw removed-then a cast on ankle for 8-12 wks. This would not be too bad except his broken rib at the sames time.

 When he recovers..maybe I can get him to run a vintage race-where we all like to walk away and go to work Monday. LOL

 Thanks, James

I have bike parts in the kitchen cabinets where most people have dishes..

Hi Folks, I wanted to confess that I'm one of those guys who spend a ton of money on bike restorations and do possess some expensive bikes, including the one mentioned by Penton117.

Let me first say that I truly enjoy restoring the bikes and with that comes spending the money...they go hand in hand.

To explain my passion, I'd have to take you back to 1973 at Fort Riley, Kansas. I was about 14 years old at the time and my family didn't have the money to purchase motorcycles...but I was a HUGE fan. One day I'm out running around the neighborhood and heard a sound in the distance like nothing I'd ever heard before. Running as fast as I could, I made it behind a row of military houses just in time to see a bike and rider go screaming by. It was truly unbelieveable. The local track at Fort Riley, the obvious destination of the bike, was about 2 miles away. I didn't even bother to go home and get my bicycle. I just ran for the track. What happened that day was just magical. The bike was a Honda CR125 Elsinore, the rider was Robert Ripley, from Cucamonga, CA and I was in heaven! I spent the rest of the day watching that guy go around and around the track.

That started my passion with motocross bikes, and led to riding that exact CR 125, a CR125 Husqvarna, a CR250 Husqvarna and a 1974 Penton 250.

Those years were just great and I travelled with Robert Ripley, Mark Lepley, Hank Spaulding and Tal Leonard to dozens of MX tracks operating in the state. Those guys were never that fast nor near famous, but they meant everything to me. Without parents who could afford to buy me a motorcycle, I had to make due with wrenching on their bikes and grabbing a ride every so often when they took pity on me. I don't think there was a bigger motocross fan in all of Kansas and my love of MX bikes is even mentioned in my High School Year Book.

This went on for 4 glorious years until I graduated in 1977 and joined the Navy. From that time forward I moved away from bikes but they were never totally out of my mind.

To make a long story short, with a career going great and a growing business, I found myself in 1997 getting into the vintage movement. Currently I race Husqvarna's here in Southern California at Carlsbad Raceway, for me, the epicenter of all my childhood dreams.

In addition to racing I took on the ambitious task of finding and restoring all the 125 MX bikes from 1974. Some of these bikes I've never seen, and it's truly amazing to see them rise from the ashes. There is great satisfaction in seeing the look on others faces when they see a bike in my collection that they too lusted after.

So where am I going with all this. Well, I don't restore bikes to sell, let alone make a profit. Let's face it, if you do a restoration correctly, you'll have 6K into a bike easily and almost no one will pay you that much. But again, I don't restore these bikes to sell, I restore them for my personal pleasure, no more, no less. After 30 years, with the exception of my wife and two children, nothing gives me more satisfaction than racing old Husky's and restoring the bikes that played such an important role in my childhood. I do put the money and time into them, but they give back so much more.

If you're interested, some of my bikes can be seen at //www.calvmx.com/guestbook. Working on a Monark right now (Sachs Engine), just found a Rupp (Sachs Engine) and recently got in a DKW (Sachs Engine)...not to mention the Penton and Tyran...both Sachs engines. Can anyone find me a Dalesman Linx 125?

 

Class of '74

Well put. You can't put a price on fun, and its a therapy only we can understand..My neighbors look at my pretty vintage bikes as "toys", don't realize what they do for me in terms of a time gone by, that is fondly remembered. Some people drink, some shop, some fool around. I ride vintage bikes.

Bart Carrigan

I am having way more fun with my vintage bikes than with old cars. About 7 years ago I sold all of my cars, 68 GTO, 72 Eldorado, Fiat Spyder Alfa GTV6 Calway Turbo. My wife was getting sick of me fiddling with them. She told me to sell the cars and get a 20 year old girlfriend. She could compete with her for my time rather than a rust car. The cars went and I started to find bikes at junk yards. I got an Ossa pioneer for $50.00 and I was hooked. I now have over 75 bikes at a cost of $10,000. The most I have ever paid was $750 for a 67 Cotton Trials bike. Most bikes were free or under $100.  I do every thing my self except cylinder  boring and some case welding my  welder can not handle.  I have a retired aircraft welder take care of that stuff. I am just finishing a 125 Monark and completed a Greeves Pathfinder last week. I usually put about  $500 into a bike. The bikes get all new cables, seals,gaskets and fasteners. I replace bearings and rods where needed. Race bike I spend about $1000 on.  A bike takes about 2 months to finish while a car would take me 4 years to do. Lot's more time to have fun and a lot more family time. I do not think I will ever go back to dealing with cars again.

 

Last year put $12,000 into restoring a 1972 Camaro with my son; new crate motor, headers, big carb, upgaded suspension, etc., etc..  It was a lot of fun and a great (bonding) experience.  Now, three speeding tickets later trying to sell it and get $5500 to $6000.  I have 6 vintage bikes in my garage right now and love them all, 3cz, 1 maico, 1 husky and 1 1976 KTM MC5 250.  (plus 3 modern bikes)  I definately prefer bikes over cars, but they can still be dangerous.  Two weeks ago at Glen Helen at the Vintage Iron World Championship I was second on the KTM and stuck my foot into a rut and put my footpeg through my boot and into my calf, fracturing my right leg.  James, even vintage bike riders have their day.  Just wanted to thank everyone on this site that many of us read the messages and obtain information and insight.  Thanks to everyone that participates.

 

Ok I guess that I will jump in too.
I have on more than one occasion voiced my gratitude for all the help I have recieved for this group. I am just an old motocrosser that have never quite gotten over my love of racing. I is a rush like no other and it is my only vice, if you can call it that. Still in an effort to keep the home fires glowing I have to be carful how I spend money. I do not think you can put to much of a price tag on good "clean" fun. I have been so luck with the bike I own. The really cool thing is that I have been able to get my son envolved in riding. He is 16 and it will not be too many more years before he will be going of to college and a career, etc. I have often thought it would be fun to take a barn fresh bike and bring it back to life. I know that there are bargins out there and some junkers too. The trick is to know the difference. It becomes even more difficult for anyone up here in the great Northwest because it is so far away from anything. If I buy a bike of of ebay, I still have to consider the cost of shipping the bike. based on what I have been reading it could cost me 2-300 dollars. If you add that into the cost of the bike it puts it on the upper edges of what the bike is really worth, so I need to be able to get a bike that is either local or so cheap that the cost of shipping is justifiable. The is not a complaint, it is how it is. Still I much to be thankful because if it was not for this site I would not know about some really great resources and maybe not even been able to ride my faithful steed at all.
I think that it is best for all of us if vintage suppliers keep the cost of replacment parts down. very few of us are into this for the money. It is our chosen addiction.

Thom Green,I own and ride a 76 250 MC5 MX which I bought new.

Thanks James, Rob, et al, this topic has been on a lot of peoples minds I think. Good to see so many respond. I think I'll pick up another box of parts at VMD... yeah. GC

GC

This subject hits home so here's my opinion for what it's worth. How 'bout a guy that was on the way up with the company he worked for for nine years, had one of his young female employees come to him and tell him that the new General Manager just pinned her against the wall and groped her, new he had to do the right thing ( pays attention in church ) and report the violation even though he knew that it would put a noose around his neck, got forced out, had tinkered with vintage bikes in his one by one garage for years and opened a vintage shop. Thats my story. Did it for the money? Nope did it for the love. I agree with all you guys opinions and especially whomever said these bikes need to be saved. It hurts my gut to see an abandoned bike. They all have stories and deserve some respect. Corny? yep. Broke? yep. Got to get back to work before I lose everything I own. Looking back it was the best year of my life. Thanks guys for all of your valued information and guidence. I proved to a lot of nay-sayers here in S.C. that vintage does matter.
Jeff