Many years ago I had a '53 bmw R25 that i lovingly restored, painting and restriping the tank and fenders only to be informed at a national rally that I'd halved the value of my bike. Is the same true with vintage dirt bikes? is unrestored original more valuable than a repaint? The bike is in great shape but missing paint from the frame.
I would venture to say that it depend's on what you are starting with.I have a 1976 250 GS Penton that I am doing a complete resto on and I plan on riding it like it was built to ride.I know that I will never get the cash value back out of the bike,but on the other hand you wont be seeing many Penton's in the wood's either! There are many guy's here that can tell you more if you list year and cc . I am sure they will help.
Thomas Carmichael
it's a '76 mint 400 (I've had it 27 years nwow so i guess its safe to say i'm not in a hurry to sell it.)
Good question.This should really have some interesting responses.
Just my two cents, but original will far out value a restoration. If you are going to take it out of moth balls and race it, then it is nice to have a shiney new looking bike. Once it is restored it can always be restored, but it will only be original once.[8D]
I agree with Doug on his response and will add that original is best if the bike is in running condition and has never been disassembled. If the bike needs work and obviously won't run a person almost has no choice but to rebuild it if the bike is going to be a show bike. I have judged many contests and everyone has their likes and dislikes. A good example of a unrestored bike was the 1974 125 Six Day I brought to Mid-Ohio. I would not restore the bike while I owned it and the next owner may restore it. I have several Pentons in various stages and I enjoy one as well as the others. Now if I could just find one of my old bikes(I'll keep dreaming).
Ron Carbaugh
I have a collection of 12 vintage dirtbikes including 3 Pentons. Some are restored to the point where I will not ride them in the dirt. Others are original which I ride a couple of times a year. I also have modern KTMs which I ride on a regular basis. I simply enjoy the restoration process, especially the before and after pictures, it is my hobby. When I resore a bike I don't consider the value before and after the restoration. I enjoy doing it. If you monkey with these old bikes to make money or for investment purposes don't, especially if you value your time doing it.
I am a Stockbroker and a CPA. This morning a ran a "Hypothetical Illustration" just for grins. I went back to June 30, 1973 and made a one time investment of $1,300 (approx. price of a new dirtbike then) into a decent stock mutual fund (not the best one and not the worst one). That one time investment grew to over $51,000 as of June 30, 2003. Not to many vintage dirtbikes will fetch that kind of money now!
The moral of the story: do with the bike what ever makes you happy!
Very well put Scott:)
I hope my wife doesn't see that.I told her that all these Penton's WERE a good investment.Seriously,when we talk "original" do we mean normal wear and tear original or Pristine ,never really rode,broke,repaired etc?
If you would have purchased the bike new in 1973 and never took it out of the crate, I would not give you anything close to $50,000 for the bike. Just my opinion.
I'll echo what some of the other guys have said. It is original only once, it can be restored an infinite number of times. As a financial investment these bikes are pretty lousy. However I think that as toys go these bikes in general (restored or original) are holding their value or appreciating somewhat. Ultimately a nice to pristine condition original will eventually be worth more than a restored machine of similar rarity/significance. The chance to make a significant profit from them is very limited. The chance to get your money out back out of them is there, but limited.
For fun and good feelings these bikes can hardly be beat (I know, I'm preaching to the choir here). In the real world they are a fairly inexpensive moto hobby. Compared to aircraft, boats, cars, even other motorcycles you can have a lot of fun for comparatively little money. If you have your old war horse and want to get it back to the condition of it's glory days I say go for it. It is a lot of fun and that is really what this is all about.
If you want a vintage bike to ride there is a fairly active market for nicely fixed up ready to go bikes. You can usually get one of them for less than what it would cost you to do it yourself. If you want to preserve a nice original bike carefully disassemble it, clean it up, and reassemble it. If you get a lot of satisfaction out of doing the work your self (as most of us do) then get a bike that is a basket case and rebuild it, or get one that has already been done and ride/work on it to your hearts content. Then you can have the best of both worlds. I say go for it do whatever feels right to you..
Mark
Metalkfab(Karl),
The original I was talking about was either brand new or ridden some, but the engine had basicaly never been out of the frame and most (or all) bolts never twisted on. Again the only reason I brought this up was people tell me they have a original bike and what they really mean is they have a restored one. To me they are all great. I really got tired of judging bikes about ten years ago from all the complaints so I just told everyone at the next show I would win best original when I bring a bike still in the crate. No more complaints. Thats what is so great about this group we all love our own bikes.[8D]
Ron Carbaugh
You all are by far the experts regarding motorcycles, but in general, antiques or vintage anything is more valuable with its original finishes and parts -- even if they have wear. Even more important is the provenance (i.e., documented history) -- so if you can document that George Washington slept next to it -- you substantially increase its value. However, there is a point of diminishing value if the condition is very poor. BTW -- regarding restoration or not to restore -- the Pentons at the ISDTRR that had the paint worn off by tank-hugging racers brought a flood of memories and an adrenaline rush. But on the flip side -- whoever had that shiny Penton that was sitting next to the POG booth -- WOW - what a work of art that was to behold!!!
My family has sunk a lot of money in a lot of hobbies and have nothing of beauty to show for it like you all have with your "works of art"!!! In addition, on the investment side, there are many of us that have sunk a few thousand in the tech bubble....... and we all know where that went... so I say "go for it" and enjoy!!!
Lynn,
You and I have the same feeling about enjoying these Pentons.
Scott,
I did the same math on a 1967 Corvette using $5,000 as the price and compared it to Mobil Oil (EXXON/MOBIL now) stocks about 10 years ago. I felt the investment more that paid for a nice car and with money left over.
Ron Carbaugh
I guess when I said value I didn't mean its value as an investment so much as its value as an "artifact". Money is just a easy way of measuring its desirability. As far as investments go I was smart enough to hold off buying that mint '74 husky five years ago and instead bought lots of Enron stock, score! thanks for all the feedback, I think for now its a clean and buff and I'll hold off on the trip to the spray booth.
I found myself in such a spot earlier this year. I was fortunate enough to find this great bunch of guys who would help with all aspects of rebuilding my Bershire that had been in the garage for 30 years. I had torn down the engine back then, but needed some parts and just never got back to it. Don't ask me why, I don't know. After all these years, I thought it prudent to let Dr. Doug rebuild "Sachsy", just in case I forgot something about the disassembly. Well, she looked so good upon return, I felt like I had to strip down to bare frame and restore everything. Another reason for this, was the person I got the bike from had already slipped a 125 cylinder on it, making it not original. So I guess it wouldn't matter in my case. To quote Sheryl Crow, "If it makes you happy..."
Robert Manucy
72 Berkshire
As a follow-up to my previous post..
I to loved the nice condition "used" Pentons (as well as all the other vintage bikes) at the ISDT-RR. I even had one there and added to it's used condition :-)) (#913 '70 Sixday) I'm going to cut back on the use of that particular bike before I use it too much. I have a nicely set up (fixed/restored) '73 to use as my competition bike. I have another Steel Tanker (a '69) that I'm going to fix up/restore to ride in future ISDT-RR's and other trail rides. As it sits now it is a perfect candidate for a rider bike. It has been changed, worked on, modified, etc in the past. It is not "original" or even nearly so. It has most of the important parts but they all need attention. When it is done it will be near it's original beauty and will be a lot of fun to ride.
Mark
Hey guys, don't forget we had a great example from our own group of how much a perfect original will go for: remember the Wassell trials bike that went for about $5000 on E-bay? I remember it saying there was never even gas in the tank!
Mick Milakovic
Delphi, IN
765-268-2570
It's good to see all the opinions. I have a Wassell trials bike thats not brand new but is in like new condition. The only flaw is some paint flaking off around some welds and a few scratchs. I keep thinking how good it would look with shiny new paint but have so for resisted the temtation. This bike still has the rubber flaps between the knobs of the original tires. I think I will just leave it be.
Dennis Jones
I just bought a '76 400 (subject of another post). The bike is full of period bits and I want to preserve all of that. I will have to be strong to resist the temptation to restore beyond "good maintenance"
I will put in my two cents worth on the restore/original debate. I have seen many "restored" bikes and also original and even NOS original bikes with zero miles still in a crate. Many restored bikes are far from what I consider restored. Restored to me means any person should not be able to tell the difference from a new NOS bike. Every item on the bike should be perfect in every way with no repro items. This is very hard to do, especially with Pentons. Most so called restored bikes are really refurbished not restored. In the classic car field restored is an art unto itself. So far I have seen a very low number of true restored bikes. Restored means to me the inside is as perfect and new as the outside. With this in mind I feel restored is worth more than original if the original has been ridden any at all. With this said, restored bikes are no fun, you can't ride them or the "value" is gone almost immediately just like the first time a new bike is ridden.