Please, no misaimed reactions to this. It's a discussion (question) with a smile behind. :-)
I often run into something that feels real odd. I can hardly read my Dirtbike Mag or anything without the story turning into how heroic the american rider/team or whatever where facing those cheating europeans.
Well, the question. Who are they?
Let me put it this way. If all of you living in america always read something like how (this or that) you pacific riders where. Meaning of course americans, japanese and chilenian riders grouped together.
Wouldn't you feel disconnected?
This grouping of euro riders (or teams or events) would at least in some way assume that there where a single rider that considered himself "european" in some way or at least where aware that he/she could be grouped together in some context.
The news, I think is, there isn't!
Yelling "hey you", addressing a group seems a bit redicoulus since there is no group. At least no individuals considering themselves as part of a group or even remotely able to assume that they ever could be bunched together with complete strangers by someone.
I mean, like a finnish person would cheer an Italian rider in favour of an american. Completely nonsense!
It disturbs me a bit reading about it all the time. Where does it come from?
And I thought the forum on race gas gave me a headache.
Dirt Bike,
In understand completely what you are saying. It is an age old clash of cultures. I lived overseas most of my life and some of my family chooses to live abroad and tell me that Americans don't have a clue... Having said that, I will also say that I was the typical "ugly american" when I lived overseas... only choosing to learn enough to cuss in any given language. My only excuse is that I was too young and too cocky.
The fact of the matter is that we Americans don't have a very rounded view of the world. I would just hope that you take whatever you read with a grain of salt..... that is the unfortunate nature of the press. Just please know (and I think you do know from the POG group of riders)is that Americans, for the most part, have a big hearts and mean no harm. Again.... don't believe everything you read!
Dirt bike, Thankyou for bringing this up. Americans for what ever reason often times do not have a very good reputation in other parts of the world. I think that part of it is because an american perspcective is different than almost anywhere else. We have compared to the rest of the world pretty easy and we tend to get cock about it. As if we are responsible for the good fortune we have enjoyed. Boy are we arrogant!
On the other side I can remember when the "Europeans came to America. The first time I saw what became my heros was at a Motocross race in the 1970 I was amazed at how fast they were and that they could even ride on what I could not even walk on. Those off camber corners must have been 30% off camber and it was muddy and I slipped with ever step. Then america start competing in the Motocross De Nations and we could hardly keep up.
I think that part of it maybe that competition thing that was set up way back in the sixties. Us against them... them being anyone not american but especially the "europeans" Not fair I know and hard to break...especially when the bike mags will not let go of it.
I think it is unfair to have some americans go to europe to compete for a few days and then because we bring home a win though not overall is an unfair assesment. Have we forgot where Motocross came from.
BY the way I for one am sick of what we as americans have done to Motocross. It is no longer a race it is a show. Just anothe circus that has come to town. I would much rather watch the euopean races the what we call motocross here in the states...
Joel Smets was right... they are messing with our beloved Motocross.
I do not accept the idea that supercross is good for the sport. It is only good to make men rich and it dillutes and destroyes all that is best about racing. What has happen to the Iron men of motocross?
Progress is not always health or valuble. :D
I hope you know that there are some americans that still prefer the drama of racing rather than the glitz of hollywood's attempt at racing.
Thom Green,I own and ride a 76 250 MC5 MX which I bought new.
dirtbike et.al.:
First off, one of the most compelling reasons that we Americans don't embrace or in many cases, even understand other countries' cultures, is very simple: we don't have to deal with them on a regular basis. Our county goes from one shore to the other and the only country that is markedly different from the U.S. that touches our borders, is a long way away from most of us. So, we don't exerience exposure to other cultures on a regular basis, like most Europeans.
Secondly, the settlers of our country, came here for specific reasons. The first, to escape persecution of their original homeland. Later on, people came here, because it was the land of opportunity, and consequently, it was sort of like a utopia to many. A place where you dream of going and if you finally get there, you espouse the culture.
Regarding the motocross issue, because we are a people of excess, after we got our butts kicked a few times, and because we found out that we liked the sport, we took to it, like a fish to water. And we did it to excess. And anything that is done to excess, is usually done better than anybody else that only does it part of the time. Hence, after a few years of doing it at such levels, our riders got really good at it, and now, we can, as a whole, pretty much dominate motocross at most levels. Sure, there are some fast guys at any given race, but in a numbers game, the American riders, have pretty much kicked ass and taken names.
On that excess thing, where else in the world, do they start their children riding motocross at the age of four years? In this country, we have THREE National Championship classes for kids riding machines of 50cc! You can't help but dominate the sport, when you start from that point.
To address the manner in which the Americans treat motocross. Again, our culture is much different than the rest of the world, and in this case, it has spawned a totally new type of "motocross": Supercross. We are (on the negative side of things) a lazy culture. We like to sit down with our hot dogs and our beers, and be entertained. In the case of motocross, promoters found a way to bring motocross to those who wanted to watch it, without having to be bothered by the elements of sun, wind, rain, cold, etc. In the beginning, the tracks weren't very challenging, and it still brought in the crowds. Over time, as the riders got better and better at doing things, the tracks got more and more challenging, finally arriving at what we see today.
Personally, I believe that the Supercross tracks are far too dangerous, but in a numbers game, we have lots of riders, so if we lose a few to injury, there are still enough to go around. And those who do survive, are very, very, very good. Take Ricky Carmichael, Chad Reed, James Stewart, Mike LaRocco, etc. Once the riders figured out how to take care of the challenges of the Supercross tracks, the outdoors events became pretty mundane. Soooooo, the promoters began to take some of the elements from Supercross, outdoors. For this reason, we now have outdoor motocross, that is pretty darn challenging.
As to the American's screwing up motocross, look at what has happened to the World Championship series. Money and greed, completely screwed it up while Dorna was running it, and in that time, many of the top riders in the Grand Prix series, decided that since the money and faster riders were in the U.S., they made it their goal, to come here. Now that Guiseppe Luongo and Youthstream is back in charge, they recognize the problems inherent with the Grand Prix series, and are trying to turn it around. Whether or not they will be successful, remains to be seen.
Oh and one other thing about the U.S. and their fanaticism about motorcycle racing: we've been very flush monitarily, and thus we've bought the best of everything to get the task accomplised. Granted, most of it is paid for with our "giant credit card", but still, we spent the money.
As for the "cheating" accusations, I think that comes from the "old boys network" in Europe, of the Euros against the Americans. From my perspective, motorsports in Europe, is governed largely by committee, rather than by rules. In cases where there is a rule infraction that is not clear cut, there is a jury meeting to discuss the matter, and the issue is dealt with, from all the different perspectives of the different countries. Add to that method, the political and business ties between countries, and you have a complete muddy mess. I've seen it in motocross and I've seen it in the ISDT/E.
Perhaps the most blatant example that I am familiar with, was at the 1982 ISDE in Czechoslovakia. The event was a very difficult one, and when the 5th day arrived, the Americans and the Czechs were at the top of the heap. During day 5, one of the American riders was injured, but not badly enough to exclude him from the event. But rather than treating him in a very quick and effecient manner, the Czech medical personnel, kept the rider off his bike for much longer than it should have taken them, thus penalizing the rider on time, and hurting the American Team. A protest was filed, but at the jury meeting, safety concerns were sited, and nothing else could be done.
It seems to me, that at that point in the event, both teams had lost a man from their Trophy squads, so they were down to 5 man teams. On either the 5th or 6th day, a Czech rider was caught getting outside assistance of one type or another, and photos were even taken of the incident. At the jury meeting, when the evidence was presented and a vote taken as to whether or not to exclude the Czech rider, the vote came down to the British juryman's vote. If he voted to exclude the Czech rider, that would put their team at 4 riders, leaving the Americans with 5 and the World Trophy in the most prestigious enduro in the world. If, on the other hand, the British juryman voted not to exclude the Czech rider, then the Czech's would have a better aggregate score, thus beating the Americans.
When it got down to the voting, you would think that the British, being an English speaking nation, would have sided with the underdogs, the Americans in this case. But because the British juryman had a business importing Jawa speedway bikes and equipment from Czechoslovaki back to the U.K., he voted not to exclude the Czech rider, thus sealing the deal against the Americans. The American ISDE Trophy team, who actually got to the end of the event in a position to win, and in the face of evidence of cheating by the Czech team, got beaten, because of politics.
While I don't know the exact details of the situation, I understand that at the Motocross Des Nations in the U.K. some years back, there were incidents where riders from the European teams, were assisted in getting up very muddy, nearly impassable hills, were the Americans, were actually hampered in their progress. As I mentioned, I don't know all the details, but the media had it pretty much pegged, in saying that the Europeans were sick of the Americans beating the hell out of them at the MX Des Nations, and here was a way to "even the playing field".
I hope I have been able to shed some light on dirtbike's questions, and I apologize if this has gotten way to long for anyone to follow, but once I get on a roll, I'll take it all the way home. For those of you who have stuck with me to the end, thank you.
Dane Leimbach
Dane, Oh I kept with you til the end, and I could have kept reading you though the entire night. !!Applause!!
Bob
Dane, you missed the part about in 1982 that one of the Czechoslovakian team members houred out on day 5 and this was noted by seveal teams. He didn't even arrive at the finish check. BUT the next morning his bike was in impound and his score card was stamped at every check. Hummmmmm. If he had been DNFed as would have be proper we would have won the World Trophy. Sad.
Cher'o,
Dwight Rudder
one of the 8 Americans out of 36 that finished that tough event.
Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.
Very interesting topic and follow up posts. One thing I miss on motocross is when you went out and found some land. Tooks some stakes and ribbon, put the stakes in the ground, ran the bibbon between the stakes and...........................presto a great motocross track. Better that all the supercross tracks ever built. I attended the 1st stadium cross in LA and after it was over, I told my wife that was the end of motocross as we knew it. And I was right. Look at what they've done to the class C racing too.
Donny Smith
I too have enjoyed following this topic. This may be off the orginal subject, but I miss the days of the Inter-Am and Trans-Am. It was great to "all the best" (american & european) riders on the track at the same time.
I know this may be un-popular, but I would like to see the supercross series go away. It seems to me, most of the racing (for the lead) is over after the 1st turn. I would like to see a 16 race National Champion Series(March - July), with two 30 minute + 2 lap moto's for each class. Then, have a 10-12 race Tran-Am Series in the Fall. Have the Europeans come to race here as in the past. I'm sure it would result in some great racing!
I know that this will never come to pass, way to much money in supercross, plus, it does have a very large following, but it's fun to think about.
Thank for listening.
Keith R. Larson
I consider myself very fortunate to have become involved with POG, primarily because of all you fine folks. Having kicked around for some time, trying to locate a motorcycling group that I am "in tune" with, I know now that I have definitely found it. As has been aptly demonstrated by the insightful replies to this post, POG members are as a whole, intelligent, considerate, knowledgable, and well spoken, especially Dane. Can we convince you to run for public office, Mr. L? All kidding aside, kudos to you all. Proud to amo:)ng you.
TED
I would hate to see supercross go away, which it won't. I agree that most events are very cookie cutter, ie. over after the first turn, but two weekends ago I saw Mike Larocco win at Indy, and it was a great experience for me and my kids: hometown racer wins the big one against all odds, takes his son for a parade lap and then gives all the credit to the fans for supporting him. Made me feel good to be a part of it.
I was thinking after I posted in this topic earlier, maybe instead of supercross going away (I agree, it won't), include a few supercross races as part of the National Champion Series. This could be the best of both worlds.
The Mike Larocco win was great, and I'm sure it was a great time. I've been to a few supercrosses, and had a blast, but have always enjoyed the outdoor races more. Thanks for the input, as I mentioned before, it's fun to think about.
Keith R. Larson
We had arenacross here (Pac. NW), last weekend (Tacoma Dome). I felt a slight pull to go watch, but I had to ask myself why. I don't like the bikes, the course, the glitz, the "be there, be there, be there" marketing, etc. I guess bikes on dirt was the attraction but it ended there.
We are really lucky to have the Vintage Dirt Racing NW Series. 9 races from Sept. to April. (#8 coming up tomorrow) At these, I see, the real soul of motocross. People racing without sponsors, on bikes they love, for the sheer pleasure of doing so. Tommorrow will be my first race ever, on my trusty '75 XL-250. A rookie at 52. Next year, I hope to be racing on a Penton. Hopefully on a 250 Hare Scrambler that will be ready by the ISDT-RR. YeeeHaaa!
Not a Penton owner, but soon to be one (fingers crossed) I have ridden one..Tomale's MC-5. Currently ride a '75 XL-250, '78 TT500
I agree that supercross may never go away. It is a drug we can not shake. I would and this I think must absolutly happen, is that we put some kind of limits on the heights and lenghts of the jumps. I am sure that there are other things that could and should be considered but thoses come to mind. What would have happened if NASCAR did not do what it did do and continues to do. Men were dying...good men, men with families....
I love to see Men like Mike Larocco out there, still competive after all these years. Continuing to race knowing that He will not win as often as he use to. The Man has character.
It is sad that races are won or lost not by the best teams or individuals but because of politics and business intanglements.
Why are infractions of the rules even taken to a commitee, If there is some doubt then fine but when it is clear and it still goes to a commitee anyway?, It sounds fishy to me. If someone needs to cheat to win, what have they really Won?
Thom Green,I own and ride a 76 250 MC5 MX which I bought new.
Quotequote:Originally posted by dirtbike
Please, no misaimed reactions to this. It's a discussion (question) with a smile behind. :-)
I often run into something that feels real odd. I can hardly read my Dirtbike Mag or anything without the story turning into how heroic the american rider/team or whatever where facing those cheating europeans.
Well, the question. Who are they?
Let me put it this way. If all of you living in america always read something like how (this or that) you pacific riders where. Meaning of course americans, japanese and chilenian riders grouped together.
Wouldn't you feel disconnected?
This grouping of euro riders (or teams or events) would at least in some way assume that there where a single rider that considered himself "european" in some way or at least where aware that he/she could be grouped together in some context.
The news, I think is, there isn't!
Yelling "hey you", addressing a group seems a bit redicoulus since there is no group. At least no individuals considering themselves as part of a group or even remotely able to assume that they ever could be bunched together with complete strangers by someone.
I mean, like a finnish person would cheer an Italian rider in favour of an american. Completely nonsense!
It disturbs me a bit reading about it all the time. Where does it come from?
AS LONG AS YOU LOVE DIRTBIKING AT ANY FORM YOU ARE MY BUDDY.
Does not matter where you from.
Cheers,Speedy---->>>>>>>>
Helmut Clasen KTM
162 Hillcrest Ave
L9H 4Y3
Dundas Ontario Canada
Ph.905-627-5349
[email protected]http://speedy_c.tripod.com
Sachs GP-GS 250-7A reeds
Zuendapp 125 GS ISDT repl.73
KTM 450 EXC Auto.03
Duke spec.Edit,1996
Adventurer 02
Thanks for your input!
The reason I brought this here is of course that this board is made up by an exceptionally wise and mature (and nice) group of people.
Dane Leimbach.. as for this ISDT/E incident. I'm completely aware of the incident. I just have another conclusion. Things like this happen over and over again. But many many times more often between different countries not involving americans at all. This is errors made by individuals which for their own reasons choose to go for occationally bad decisions. I couldn't twist the thing to be an issue between latin Vs Anglo, east Vs west, dark haired Vs Blondes or for that matter americans Vs europeans which in my ears is an equally logic grouping as the others i mentioned.
There is and never where as far as I know any secret or official bond between any european nations. I can honestly say that no european individual ever made the decision to cheer on any rider based on weather he came from USA or another country. I can't even name a single german rider. I know the name of a few italians but wouldn't ever consider cheering on them.
No, I judge the riders from what they achive and their attitude as well as talent of course. I like supercross because it has kept our sport alive and injected some money. For the most part those riders are good motocrossers too and the mix between supercross and the nationals seems pretty fine to me.
I also like the idea of extending the supercross series with a few european events and maybe even a japanese and south american event making it a "legal" world supercross serie.
The tracks in europe is however pretty different. Swedes have a hard time with the italian, english and belgium tracks which often are very fast and hard. Those riders aren't quite comfortable in sweden, finland, poland and so on because we have much more rutted, muddy and tighter tracks. I don't think that too many american riders really would be able to go for a GP series gold. Right now I only think that Ricky C would be able to succed. Rhyno tried and Mike Brown recently but both had to realize that it's just as hard as back home.
All in all I would like to see more international events including the best US riders too. First of all to grant the GP series a true world champ status but also to place the US riders in context.
As it is, a euro rider going over to US will have a hard time making himself justice for the first couple of seasons but what magazines as Dirtbike Mag doesn't seem to figure out is that US riders would have just the same problem. Different tracks, different languages. Occationally hostile audience against riders challeging the local boy which as I said is just as common between different countries in europe.
Finally I would like to say that the rider I liked the most back in the early 80's where Brad Lackey. He fought his way and did away with the gold. Our Carla where around at the same time and you should know that he was treated very bad by belgians when he had a shot at Malherbe. The same happened to Lackey but then again, I always have to read about Lackey against the euros which in my mind turns the issue down to yummy yummy.
Let me just end it all by stating who I considered the best motocross rider ever. Sadly it's not from the time era that interests me all too much. Jean-Michel Bayle. He was something exceptional.
And my favorite MX list right now:
#1 LaRocco
#2 Joel Smets
#3 R Carmicael
#4 S Everts
Dane as always thank you for your insight.
Speedy - The Texan has to go with you on this one. I like all forms of dirt bikes. I have watched and known some of the best from different nations and NEVER worried about who was from where. I just don't read the trivial writing that comes in certain magazines because I feel they (the writers) don't have a true perspective of the big picture.
Ted - I agree with you that I am proud to be a part of POG.
Ron Carbaugh
Thank you, Ron. So, in what political postion can Dane do us the most good? Let's get him nominated.
Ted,
Dane has always been someone to look up to and it is always an honor to visit with him trackside or on the technical side. If one puts things in perspective who has done more for the Penton People to keep that ignition systems working, offer tech advise on same here at no charge and helped originate the Penton legend.
Political: Well I always like Dane's style of telling it like it is. One must remember that Dane and others that contribute to this site have the knowledge of traveling over the world and being a part of politically charged event (ISDT/E) and have great input on the subject at hand. He can move to Texas we need more people like him. Enough said.
Ron Carbaugh
Ron, you cant have him! Once a nut always, oops wrong commercial, once a Buckey, always a Buckey!
Jim
Jim,
Well talk about it at Mid-Ohio. I have plenty of political trading material[:0].
Ron Carbaugh
Ron, My impressions of Dane match yours. However, I agree with JPJ, we're keeping him!
I realize that I am out on the edge with this Supercross thing and I realize that in many ways it has contributed large amounts of money to the sport. I have been to both supercross and arenacross. We no longer have supercross up here because the Kingdome is no more. Two stadiums replace it and neither one works all that well for supercross. So my point may be some what mute. In the early days before it got out of hand (my opinion) It was fun to go see the big boys duke it out. and all under one roof. Supercross was in Feb. and though it was cool inside the kindome at least you were not wet. It rains alot around here and it is not unusual to get snow even in early Feb. It was a winter event that help get you ready for the racing in the summer. Arena cross just does not interest me at all, I was bored. I am sure that it is a great place for up and coming rides to get some experience and that is fine, we need that. It all seems to work but that does not mean that it is the best or right. what about those riders who have ended up in a wheel chair because of supercross.
I was talking to Shawn McDonald the editor of Bench Racer Magazine. Bench racer is devoted to just tell the stories of racing, the riders and bikes important people in motorcycle racing. anyway I was asking him about Danny (magoo) chandler. A rider that rode many of the same tracks I did when I was alot younger. I summized by the fact that no one ever said anything about him, even when they were talking about riders in his time period that something bad must have happened to him. I thought I had heard that he ended up in a wheel chair but I had no details. what really happened, what ever happened to him, so I asked Shawn. He told me that danny crashed at the Paris supercross and it ended his career. He did end up in a wheel chair and is techically a quadraplegic. He is not doing well at all. And what about the rider that I heard about this week that was killed? Where will the insanity end? When I was a kid my mother was alway after me to eat my veggies, I would rather eat icecream and junk food. It was much more fun. Supercross is fun... and it does bring in the big bucks but is it really all that good for us. What about educating the public on what motocross is really about instead of the sugery sweets of supercross. I must agree with Terry the soul of motocross is the local Vintage racing that is more about the racing than anything else. We have very few rules and everyone polices each other and if someone is pushing the limits there is alway someone who is willing to help them get back in line. If there is a problem and there almost never is. It is handled by the riders involved. This year I and another rider have been competing for the overall in our class. we did some bumping and such on the track but it was all with in the realm of sportsman like racing. After the day was over he came over and congratulated me on a fine race. I got a hand shake and a hug from this competitor. A great guy and a fine racer. That is what racing is about. This is not the abnormal but the normal. It is not unusual at all to get a high five as I or someone else leaves the track and the end of the race. It is nice to know that there are places in the world and I am sure we have not cornered the market on it where sanity still reigns.
Thom Green,I own and ride a 76 250 MC5 MX which I bought new.
I totally agree with you Tom Green....
The vintage racing is more like it was before and I like it.
The coin always has two sides though. Up here in sweden, supercross has never really made it through. So we practically haven't any rider in world class standard and regular outdoor mx is a kind of self dying. So the world without supercross has and is beeing tested and the result isn't too promising, sorry to say.
A comment about the topic in the first place. Several of you replied with a lot of different views. Very interesting. I'd like to bore you further with a few reflections of mine. I read that americans thought themselfes as cocky, having a bad reputation and a bad world view. That world view, I cannot say, but americans isn't known to be cocky or have a bad reputation at all in europe. That is not my impression at all.
I also read that a MXDN event was done in such a manner that the euros would benefit since they where tired of beeing beaten up by americans. I can't say if this is right or wrong. Frankly as a european I don't understand the conclusion. It bottoms in something I can't see. I don't think that another ten years reading Dirtbike Mag or MX action will make me understand the point of view any better.