What do you experienced Penton MX racers like to run for fork oil weight and quantity? 125/6Days
Thank you,
Tom Benolkin
Tom;
For 32mm forks 135cc of fork oil. 35mm forks 180cc. For you I would start with a 5w. Make sure the caps are working. If you are bottoming alot go to a 10W Rider weight,outside temp, and bonzai ability are all determining factors and individual preference, of course. There were times that we would put 1 1/2" spacers on top of the springs to give the springs more preload. Old valve springs were ideal, or use tubing to make the spacer, you don't wamt to seal off the vent hole in the cap. Having fun yet?
Tom,
Doug's information is good, but I think that I'd also consider applying some of the more modern technological procedures to the forks. First off, fill both forks with the same amount of oil without the springs in them, compress the fork completely and then measure the distance from the top of the fork, to see that the levels are the same. If not, adjust the oil level to the same height.
Secondly, if you are having bottoming problems with the stock springs, I'd raise the oil level by maybe 10 mm in each fork, and see if that helps. If not, you may want to consider trying to find some heavier springs. By adding more preload to the existing springs, you affect the fork's ability to take care of small bumps. The bottom line to bottoming, is purely in the springs ability to resist a given force.
You can add more oil to each fork, but you will arrive at a point, where you will make the overall ride pretty harsh.
Way back when, we didn't know most of this stuff, so it is a learning process.
Dane Leimbach
Penton Imports Co., Inc.
Thank you for the sound advice Doug and Dane. Very good references for this Penton rookie to start from.[^]
Last Sunday after the races my friend was disgusted with the handling of his strap tank YZ. He came up to [:p]The Green Hornet[:p] and measured the wheelbase. When he found out the wheelbase was 5 inches too short we spent a large portion of the trip home dreaming up ways to improve his bike.
I think he threw in the towel on re-inventing the wheel because I just got a call from him 15 minutes ago. We are now planning a road trip to pick up a 6 Days he found.[8D]
The YZ is Ebay bound.
Thanks again guys,
Tom Benolkin
Tom,
Thanks for choosing to ride Pentons. Your intensity and excitement means a lot to someone like me(a has been, well I can still walk[:p]). Just your God given ability is something to watch at a race.
Thanks Big Guy.
Ron Carbaugh
Ron,
Still walking eh? Well, that's better than some of us some of the time.
Dane
Dane...stock tip. Buy heavy in wheel chair and walker stocks. We are all approaching that delicate age;). Heard you got another dusting of that white stuff. Hope all is well up in Ohio.
RC
Ron Carbaugh
Mr. Benolkin's bonzai abilities are well established.
Actually, there isn't much of the bonzai philosophy in evidence as he always seems in perfect control and out for a Sunday ride, while blowing the doors off of everyone else and getting big air for a short travel bike.
I'm hoping I can make Jefferson in April and Tom is able to be there too. It should be a great show.
Tony, future customer of the Scooter Store and wondering if a Little Rascal can be punched out to 200cc............
Tom, I still need to dowmload photos...your shocks were at laest as soft as your forks. In fact, I am sure I saw your forks flexing too.
Would it be leagl to run the 35 mm Cerianis? If so, I think it would be a good swtich for Tom. James
Yamazuki-Kawahonda all sounds the same to me.. Real bikes were made in Europe
James,
Hmmm, That is a pretty good idea on the 35mm forks. I am pretty sure that I will find the tubes to be bent when they get disassembled today.
I would be surprised if it was NOT legal to run them. When you see the BIG BUCK CZ's and even a Hybrid AT1 Yammy go through tech that are well beyond machining technology we had in 1972.
The cool thing about MX is that money or politics got nothing over just plain hitting the corners harder. I remember thats why I quit football and baseball at 13 yrs old.
Thanks for the suggestion. Diamond Dons is only 1050 miles from Minnesota and that makes it close.[xx(] See you there.
Tom B
Tom I was looking at the classic 125s and some were quite nice-the CZs mostly. I think $10,000 is bit of exaggeration as i have half that in my 77 440 Maico-and thta is only since I insisted on saving a basket case. It is worth it now. Now I need an MC5 250 Katoom cheap enough I can hide it from the wife. See you both at Diamond Don's-it real close to Tucson too. James
Yamazuki-Kawahonda all sounds the same to me.. Real bikes were made in Europe
Calling ARHMA Legal Dept.
Does anyone know if the 35mm forks are legal? It seems if you are running against Elsinores that a 73 Frame(Penton) would be legal. Help me out so that I can help Tom out since I have always been known to follow the rules[:p].
Ron Carbaugh
Ron, I just thought it has to be. since 35 mm cerianis were available in 72 it has to be a legal "period modification".
James
Yamazuki-Kawahonda all sounds the same to me.. Real bikes were made in Europe
James,
Available in what way? The first 35mm forks I saw on Pentons were in 1973. The reason I am asking is that it sure seems like these other brands stretch the rules. If ARHMA is OK with rule stretching I can work under those conditions no problem.
Ron Carbaugh
I thought the travel lenght is the legal factor in the different classes.If you really want a quality front end look for the 35mm Betor forks off a Puch or DKW.In the day they were very stout forks.Other than the seals being lousy they were(and are)a quality set of legs. I know this will get me into troble with you purists out there but hey, the first one across the line is da winna!
I have restored a few bikes over the years and most of the pentons I redid required fork straightening.Not badly bent but bent just the same. I have never run across a set of bent Betor forks.Just my own observation.Again, I am not trying to cause trouble,just my personal view.
dkwkid,
This is a open form. I have run across many of bent forks including Betors and there is a long list. Even when you get the longer travel 35mm they bend. Actually the short travel 35mm Ceriani are difficult to bend it they are properly cared for..notice I didn't say impossible. DKW I think you and your brother put in a lot of time desert racing in SoCal is this correct?
Ron Carbaugh
Yes Ron, We raced District 37 although my brothers were much more involved than I.It was alot of fun rowing the gearbox between 3rd and 5th across open desert.It seemed to me that whenever I just got on the pipe in 4th and I hit 5th gear I usually have drop into 4th again.Oh well, it only was a 100.
For some reason Pentons were not quite as popular for desert.They were quite pricey in there time.However, they have been and are still one of the nicest looking bikes out there.Good quality stuff like Magura controls, Metzler tires and such.
Iused to watch Bruce Mcdougal and Charlie Bowers clean up at Ascot park MX.Mettco Pentons were the bomb with their riveted tanks and black engines.
dkwkid,
How about the Brooks brother on the DKWs giving everyone fits on the big desert races. Great days.
Ron Carbaugh
Ron & Tom,
My understanding of the Sportman class is 7 inches up front and 4 at the rear. Any fork that was available at the time for any bike, not just available as a Penton option. Hope this helps.
Tommy
Tommy,
Thanks and I hope all is well. You need to ask on the POG some history of the man's garbage can you now own. Great person and was the ad marketing guy along with his wife for Penton.
Ron Carbaugh
James & DKWKID,
I think I will try some of the spring & oil testing suggestions for starters and use 35mm forks as a back up plan. It is important to me at this point to keep my bike as stock "Looking" as possible.
Not only was it fun for this 46 year old to run with the 21 year old Classic Champ in Arizona last week. It was fun to see them staring at the same Penton that just got off the track placing 2nd in Sportsman 125 class.
Thanks for the suggestions though..I sure would not rule them out for a future battle plan to go after Elsinores.
Tom B
Ron, a riding buddy of mine(who bought a brand new Jackpiner in 73)is fishing buddies with Tom Brooks.I asked to talk to him about his racing days but my friend says Tom is a little wierd about it-wont talk about the old days.What a shame,I,ll bet he has some stories to tell!His brother Cordis is in prison for murdering his wife in 82.They never had enough evidence until he moved out of his house.Strange stuff-I met him a few times and even showed him my 100cc Deek.
A few years back I was at a National Hare&Hound and I finished the loop on my DKW.Mitch Payton from Pro Circuit was there at the finish-he said those Sachs/DKW motors always finished! Good compliment.
Glenn
dkwkid,
I will follow up at a later date with some of the finishes that Tommy had against even the big bikes. Very Sorry to hear about Cordis. I guess that the last time I saw him at a race was in the late 70's I think. What a terrible situation. Well I appreciate the information as we all have to move forward.
Ron Carbaugh
35mm forks ARE legal for the 125 classic class in AHRMA. No reed valves or multicone pipes.
How to phrase this delicately, I know Tom is fast, because he keeps telling us. And knocking people down is something to be proud of? Rick Nicholson
Rick,
I would like to put this as delicate as I can. I have been knocked down and knocked people down. I don't remember Tom saying "I am fast and knock people down and proud of it". Have you ever been knocked down? Have you ever knocked anyone down?
Racing is racing and I have always loved it and it is not a delicate sport. I think sometimes some people don't understand that at very fast speeds situations happen that are unfortuite. I will say that at the opening ARHMA race that the water truck was put out before a race that made a very unsafe situation....but the race went on. OK your turn, but don't start taking shots unless you want them coming back at you.
Ron Carbaugh
Ron,your response is a reasonable one, I've nothing to respond to it except that every motor sports has a reckless driving/riding rule. Yes, stuff happens in racing, but if it becomes chronic or predictable then someones judgement may come into question. 'Nuff said from me. Rick Nicholson
Wow Tom,21 I did not know...is that the #1c on the AT1 Yamaha thing?
I raced vintage starting at age 24..i was not well received then. It is funny now at 37 to be nowhere near the younger around. Maybe when i'm 46 I'll be as fast as Tom. LOL James
Yamazuki-Kawahonda all sounds the same to me.. Real bikes were made in Europe
Tom I have a 125 that came with the 32's. raced it at mid ohio a couple of times in the sportsman class.[reed valves] Faired pretty well against a rash of elsinores. Finally decided to try a set of 35's . Should have done it long ago. I did not realize how the front end had been flexing. Also , I prepped a couple of mint 400s for you to ride at Tyler pro am. they were delivered by Ron Munson, as i had to work. I,m not sure if you didnt show or had other ride. Next pro am contact Firstturn or me if you need a ride in Tex. Long travel 81 ktm 495 w/fox air and 40 mm zokes. Short travel 2 4oo pentons. These are the same bikes Bruce McDougle rode at tyler.
Ktoom,
Thanks for that fantastic offer...I will contact if life allows the trip. I did not go last year because a friend died 2 weeks before the event in a road bike/deer accident. I was not hungry to ride for quite a while. Thanks again.
Tom B
Rick Nicholson,
If you are talking about the first turn pile up moto 2 classic 125 in Phoenix you sure had a different seat than I did. I WAS SCARED!!!AND THOUGHT I WAS DEAD!!!
Someone on a black CZ lead by about 4-6 feet and was high right by about 4-6 feet. The guy loses it on the freshly watered track and lays out a full lock slide looking at my front Dunlop. In a heartbeat...NO less than a heartbeat I am riding right over his ribcage.
When the race was restarted everyone went to the line except me. I was so upset over hurting that kid that I went directly to the starter and REAMED him HUGE for that track being watered. Then I asked a few where I could find Dave Boydstun to air my complaint.
Then I rode down to the first turn and saw 2 guys pushing a CZ back. I told them "Please tell your rider how sorry I am I ran right over him and didn't even have a chance".
They very, very politely said " Thank you for taking time to tell us. We will tell him for you"
Then things really got weird after the race. My 2 guys in the pits told me that the guys I talked to in the first corner where not with the guy in my moto. They said the guy in my moto got up and finished the race. I could not believe it. I thought he was really hurt and I felt like crap.
If it was you Rick..I 100% apologize but man no way does anyone EVER try to knock a guy down in the first corner. I personally NEVER try to knock a person down EVER but it happens. I think it will continue to happen and there is a reason.
At AHRMA races we have: Guys that were: World Champions, Grand Prix winners, Factory riders, Guys that want to say they rode with all of the above, Guys that want to beat all of the above. Shoot its a melting pot of talent.
I personally think it is more dangerous for me than them. I get the crapped scared out of me at EVERY ahrma race trying to stop in time and not take someone out that takes corners in a different time zone. I mean SCARY crap that makes me ask why I am even at this race. Every race.
As the actor Yule Brennen would say on The Real McCoys every Sunday night....."No Brag Just Fact"
I looked back in my words and I sure dont see where I told anyone I thought I was so fast. I see the other guys talking me up more than I ever would. I do see where I was super happy to say I ran with all the Elsinores and got 2nd in Sportsman. That was fun!
So what do we old racers do that dont want to face triple jumps or 100 foot gaps on modern bikes?
THIS IS A LEGITIMATE QUESTION WE SHOULD BE ASKING AHRMA
Would it hurt them to have more of a Pro class? Perhaps a cash race with a good old set of 30 minute motos type format where you expect to be dogged by the big dogs?
Or should we just say well I'm 46 and married with a couple college students. I guess I dont get to do what I have loved since I was 8 years old.
Peace Out..See you In Florida. Have your stuff ready. Mine will be[:p]
Back to the fork issue. If you choose to opt for a set of 35's other than cerriani, an easy route to go is to use a lower cerriani tripple clamp [non tapered] on the top along with a stock lower. The lowers are easily drilled for handlbar clamps and you do not have the problem of trying to adapt other steering head bearings and races. I learned this trick from Barry Higgins while visiting his shop and doing some buying,selling swaping etc. I noticed this setup on a K.R.short tracker that my friend purchased from Barry. He said that he believed the shot trackers came this way. Once again having run both size forks, I hiiiiiiighly recomend trying a set of 35,s. You'll throw roost at your 32's once you do. Also if you choose to run the cerrani forks off a larger or later yr. Penton your front wheel will bolt right on. See ya'll at the races.... Joe Wright
If you can find them, the Betor triple clamps off a Puch or DKW will bolt right up.I bought a parts Penton one time and it had the Betor front end on it(turns out thats what I needed most!)It was a mongrel bike with a DKW engine and a lay down shock penton frame.
Last year at a swap meet I bought a DKW rolling chassis for 10 bucks. It had a complete 250 Elsinore front end mounted in the Betor clamps.I decided to use it for my sons vintage racer.Not as good as the betor forks but a MUCH better front brake.
Glenn
Guys that would be Walter Brennan, not Yule. Man, I guess I'm showing my age!
Donny Smith
Yes, Donnie and that would be Yule Brenner not Brennan....man we are all losing it. BTW Bob Brizee is trying to contact you about a frame.
James
Yamazuki-Kawahonda all sounds the same to me.. Real bikes were made in Europe
Tom,
Since Dane mentioned modern, here goes. I am using 20cc STP and finishing off with synthetic ATF on my 32's. On the 35's use an equal mixture. I have found better dampening using this mix. I also use a similiar mix in rear shocks. DeWayne Jone of Performance Suspension turned me on to this
Bob Brizzee
Bob,
Now that sounds interesting. Progressive oil weight to go with a progressive spring rate.
Thanks,
TB
Ron,
What did you mean by "You need to ask on the POG some history of the man's garbage can you now own." I'm clueless!!??
Tommy
Tommy
Ron
Phill Campbell, not Tommy was the Cape Girardeaun who won the wastebasket.
Tommy
I bet you were confused. Ron is talking about a trash can that came from Penton Imports that Phill won as a door prize at the POG meeting.
Dennis Jones
Dennis, Phil and Tommy,
Some how I got word that Tommy won the door prize. OK I will try again.
Phil...you may want to find some history of the person and his wife's contribution at Penton. Please let me know if I got it right this time.[8]
Dennis...how is the steel tanker coming?
Ron Carbaugh
firstturn,
dane did mention whose office it came from. such apriviledge to be at this meeting with all the POGGERS, the newlyweds and some 29 jackpiners! and to top it off, an unusual warm(55 deg) sunshiny day!
jim