1972 Piner:
Got this bike end of August. Rode it several times, to see how it acted, and what it needed. Last time I rode it 6 weeks ago, it was flowing gas out of the overflow tube almost the whole time while I was riding. I replaced the bowl, the throttle cable (different reason), jet needle, needle jet, atomizer. Couldn't replace the slide (Bing didn't have one) - and the existing slide has an idle screw worn notch, but I can't tell if it's big enough to be a problem. I started it up after many kicks, took off on a warm up ride, got to the bottom of my infamous "6-day Hill" from this summer, 3 blocks from the house, turned around and, you guessed it, it bogged on the uphill grade (mild) and died. What's different from the 125 6-day this summer - it's 40 degrees cooler (65 instead of 105), and the bike would start again, but not go under load.
So I figured, must be the Motoplat going bad on this one, too (as that turned out to be the problem with the 125), and I decided not to push it for 3 months before getting around to the ignition.
Today I installed an MZB ignition, got a big fat blue spark, kicked it started (after 8 or 9 kicks), took off on a check ride, and, yep, it died at the bottom of the hill (this hill-bottom could be the Penton Bermuda Triangle). Long story wrapup -
- it will start,
- it will run,
- I cannot get it to idle stably by itself yet
- within a couple of minutes it will begin to bog.
- If I activate the choke about 1/2", it will run better for a little bit, then bog.
- If I gas it past half throttle, it doesn't climb on the pipe, just kind of maintains its casual revs.
I've got good grounds.
Any ideas, other than replace the entire carb?
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Hi Larry, maybe your cursed. Did you clean the carb? Also did you try blowing out the idle jet and leveling out the float? Wish you luck.
Rod Whitman
1972 6 Day (Rider)
1972 6 Day (Project)
Hi Larry. Sounds like your bike is running very lean. I'd check the float level, but also check for an air leak. How is the bike jetted compared to the stock settings? Have you pulled the flywheel cover off and checked the play in the main bearing? A loose bearing can cause an air leak at the main seal that you just can't see, especially with a old hardened seal that no longer has any flex left in it. Also, a 40 degree swing in temperature will wreak havok on jetting. If it ran good at 100 degrees it will be lean at 65. Your bike probably makes it down the hill fine as it is under a very light load. Once you try to go back up the lean jetting will not develope enough power to pull you back up as now it has an incline to deal with. [xx(]
I'll enrich the needle one notch and see what happens. (it was another bike - 125 - that gave me fits last summer, although all's well that ends well, the 125 ran superbly at the RR in Arkansas) - thanks!
Rod, I'm confident that I thoroughly cleaned the carb, and set the float level correctly, but I'll definitely check both those things again when I 'rich' the needle one notch.
I have no experience with bearings, so I wouldn't know what I was looking at. Maybe I can schmooze Dave McCullough to help me look at that, if it comes to it.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Larry.......Deja vu ?
Larry.....Deja vu ?
Did you ever get the gas to stop running out of the floatbowl's overflow tube?
Larry,
The lack of a stable idle is a key symptom. Raiseing the needle wont help the idle. It does sound like a lean condition. Could you post what you have for jets installed and the size of the Bing thats on it?
The vaporizer does have the cutaway facing the engine right? Watch how the needle clip is locked in place also. Look at the book and make sure the parts are in the right order.
Did the bike clean out and run up in RPM when you first got it?
It should idle like a clock if the mix is right when the slide is at rest and idle screw adjusted right.
John D.
John,
I'll post jet sizes and the Bing size (think it's a 32mm, type 54) in the next day or two, once I pull it.
I'll check the vaporizer orientation.
When I got the bike, it was a little reluctant to start and keep running (it would catch, die, catch, die, catch, die, then finally catch and stay running), and , and it didn't initially run all that clean and ramp up tightly. It seemed to do better after I tinkered with it some, then the temperature cooled off and the bike started flowing gas almost non-stop that last time out. Rob, It doesn't flow gas out the overflow tube indiscriminately anymore, though.
If the slide has deteriorated due to the notch being work by the idle screw, would that be a factor here?
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Hi Larry. It's very easy to check the flywheel side main bearing. Just remove the cover and give the flywheel a tug up and down. There should be ZERO play. Now granted a bike can still run well with a slightly worn bearing, but add a hardened seal into the mix and now you can easily suck air as a hardened seal will not flex with the wobbly bearing...it will just distort and allow air into the crankcase and cause a lean condition. This is a very common problem with old 2 strokes. It's also important to remember that jetting is very sensitive to changes in temperature and humidity. If your last run was at 100 degrees and the bike ran well, it should be dangerously lean at 65 if it was jetted cleanly for 100 degrees. If it was jetted right last summer, merely changing the clip position will not be enough of a correction for the colder denser air and it will still be lean on top. If your jetting is stock, I'd say you have a leak somewhere as normally stock jetting tends to be a little rich for safety's sake.
Hope this helps
James
Larry,
We cant tell from here how bad the wear is where the idle screw touches the slide. I would say as long as the slide moves up and down when you adjust the screw it should work. make sure that the throttle cable and the choke cables are adjusted correctly, enough free play.
Check the main bearings for play like James said. Dont be fooled by play from side to side when you do this. The 175 should have some play from side to side to run right. not more than .010 of an inch i would think though.
Usually when the mag side seal is leaking you see a wet area just below , running up to the seal it self. That seal is mounted in a removable plate on the KTM engines and can be replaced with out much trouble.
I would clean out the pipe and end cap by burning it out and run a compression test on the engine at the same time. If the base gasket or head gasket are leaking that will show up as a wet area also over time.
Best we can do for now with what we know.
John D.
Larry; Flowing gas out of the overflow! I would say you need a new float needle and seat. Bing has them as a kit. It is very difficult to determine to lean or to rich but there should never be overflowing fuel all the time. Have fun, Doug
Its suck'in gear oil or you have a vacum leak,Sound like a primary main seal,could be timing,or something making a ground![B)]
Read your Plugs?most important?[:0]
Doug,
I put a new float needle in it - didn't change out the float needle seat, but it isn't over overflowing gas, now, though..
It hasn't run long enough for me to get a read on the spark plug.
Rob W, it's deja vu all over again :)
Type 84, 32mm, stock needle (I think I put it on first notch - it had been on 2nd notch - I'll move it back).
John, I have an idea - what you said about making sure parts on in the right order .... I'll let you know
Here's a minor rant - installed an MZB Saturday, and the kit didn't include a length of spark plug blank wire to connect the cap to the coil. For that kind of money, not to include 30 cents of wire makes my central nervous system produce sparks of its own (cost me an hour and a half to stop, clean up, drive to cycle shop and get the wire, then return, all in Saturday traffic, which is always a martini-inducing adventure) . Airlines, travel agencies, insurance companies, manufacturers across the board - I've just about had it with the trend to nickel and dime customers at every opportunity .... Aaaargh!
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Larry,
Did you check with your MZB supplier on the coil to plug cap lead? Mine came with all required pieces so, it almost seems like it got misplaced. Hard to imagine it would actually come without that piece. Good luck and I'll talk with you this weekend.
Mike Husted
Larry,
I'll be glad to try and help figure it out. Maybe the JP can make the trip down to Scipio this weekend with us for a little testing ?? Sounds like the bike is being fuel starved. Could it possibly be as simple as a clogged fuel cap vent ?? Might want to try swapping the gas cap from your Six day to the JP. We know the Six day cap is venting good since that bike runs great. I'll give you a call to set up the riding trip this weekend. Weather looks like it should be great this weekend and am looking forward to riding. Talk to you later.
Dave McCullough
Hi Dave,
I emailed you my phone #'s.
I enriched the needle one notch, cleaned the carb thoroughly, put it back on and very securely tightened everything down. Kicked it about 12 times, no start. Walked away for a few minutes, then kicked it again and it started first kick. It idled much better (although it seemed to wander up and down a little bit). I raced the engine after a bit, and at one point it kept revving higher without additional throttle input, which got me nervous, so I hit kill switch.
Didn't have time to ride it (10pm and lots of old people in the neighborhood). I'll try to accomplish that tomorrow.
I think the carb may not have been tightly enough clamped to the engine manifold ... my bad.
Question - why would it be so sluggish to start, with new plug and new ignition system?
[/quote]
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Larry,
I agree with everyone that you have a lean condition. That's probably what's causing the bike to rev up on it's own. And also being lean will cause it to start hard.
Here's something I ran into while working on a 250 awhile back. The clamp was tight on the carb, but the carb was still loose on the intake manifold. What happened was, on the carb where it clamps over the intake manifold, there are 4 slits cut into the body. I found that two of the slits had been closed up from overtighting of the clamp over time. I took the carb off, and used a hack saw blade to open them back up. Then when I reinstalled the clamp, I moved the bolt from the bottom of the carb body to the top.
Whenever I tackle a bike that hasn't been ran in a while, the first thing I do is replace the ignition side crank seal. While I have the seal plate off, I wire brush it and the side case, and I also run a 5mm tap back in the case to clean out the threads. When I'm finished, I know that I have a good ground there, and no air leak.
Hi Gary,
Hope your ankle's healing quickly.
I was focused on the carb throat last night - those 4 slits look to be ok. Both of the carbs for the Sachs engine have a gasket sleeve ringing the inside of the carb throat (engine side), but this carb on the KTM doesn't have one. Should it?
I'll try to ride it a little today and see how it acts under a little stress.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Larry,
Think Gary has a good suggestion about replacing the ignition side seal on the crank. I had a similar problem with my Piner when I first got it and found the seal was real bad. Little did I know at that time that my crank bearing was heading south causing the seal to get eaten up but that's another story. Anyway, I'm pretty sure I have a new seal and will bring it on Saturday. Talk to you later.
Dave McCullough
thanks, Dave. See you Saturday!
I put a #6 plug in it, needle is at #2 slot, kicked it about 12 times, left it alone for a few minutes, came back and got it running on the 3rd or 4th kick. I hopped on and took off on a check ride. It was lethargic, but when I opened the choke lever about 3/8", it ran much better. But it wouldn't rev past about half throttle, and would actually start to bog a little beyond half throttle. If I increased choke lever a little more, then it would run a little better in taller gear (4th) but still not want to run crisp beyond half throttle.
Do I need to drop needle to #3 slot and observe any diff in performance?
I haven't pulled off right cover to check crank shaft play, yet. Will do that Friday.
One last observation, the kickshaft and gear shift seals are starting to leak quite a bit (I just received seals from Al Buehner, but haven't put them on yet). Don't know if that could possibly have an effect on the 'air leak' question.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Larry, whats the status? Do you got that pup up and running yet?
Rod Whitman
1972 6 Day (Rider)
1972 6 Day (Project)
Larry,
I just thought of this and i appologize. You can use an O ring inside the carb mouth . We got a fat one from the local harware store. Sliped it inside the mouth and held the carb tight to the intake while tighting it down. If you suspect the carb to intake as an air leak with the engine running you can spry WD or carb cleaner around the spigot . The engine should change tune ( RPM ) when you do this if it is leaking.
Let us know how its going please.
The bigger Bings did not always come with that gasket sleeve like the 100/125's have . That was an oversight. They not only help the sealing to the intake manifold but act as a heat isolater to keep the fuel in the float bowl from getting to hot.
John D.
Rod, John,
John, thanks for the tip on the O-ring. I'll do that, because it's good advice and makes sense even if it doesn't actually need it in this case (like signaling a lane change in the desert at midnight ... you KNOW no one is behind you, but it's just good form).
I've been stripping my '74 125 down to the frame to paint it, so haven't spent much time with the Jackpiner. BUT .... I think I've solved the biggest part of the problem (although I will focus on all aspects of it this month, now that I have some free time). Ron laughingly told me not to tell anyone this, but it's quite frankly too funny (at my expense, as usual) not to share ... I think I had the choke wide open instead of closed. I had the choke pushed parallel to the handlebar crossbar, thinking this was closed (the diagram in the manual states that a perpendicular orientation is "on", which I interpreted to mean "open"). But after about the 9th time of pulling the carb and cleaning, changing needle, etc, I remembered seeing how the choke was oriented upward into the carb throat when the cable was pulled tight. Well, that, plus when I was gurgling along down the street, I tried pushing the choke up (which thought was opening it just a little, but was in fact closing it just a little) and the engine ran a little better. So, while pushing the bike back up the hill once again (I may have to move to a flat neighborhood!) my little brain had time to finally put 2 + 2 together. I went to the manual, READ the text (not just looked at the picture) and the text jogged my memory about my 250 (it was on loan so I couldn't eyeball it for reference) which has a big Bing on it, too. Gary had the choke pulled tight with a rubber strap at a perpendicular angle to the handlebars to keep it from "coming open". So I pulled the choke lever to a perpendicular angle, started the bike (it's still required mucho kicking to start it) and went for a spin, and it ran out just fine. No more bogging and sputtering.
So, there it is (sorry, Ron! I had to come clean!). I'm still concerned about it being so hard to start, and would appreciate any tips about that.
Am I right about the pictogram in the manual being incorrectly described as "on" ? figure #13 on page 7 (under Controls section)
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Larry,
If you think you are the only one to get stumped with the choke deal.....I set first chair in that department. It wasn't with a Bing, but I still did it and and I hope everyone has a good laugh about it.[8D]
Ron Carbaugh
Larry,
thats great news. Now you have the bike idleing. Get it hot . Run it about 15 mins. Make sure you have run it through a few gears hard to get everything cleaned out well. Adjust your idle mix. It should drop rpm if you have it right when you turn the mixture screw in and out a bit from the best setting. Reset the idle speed.
The choke lever will move on its own chuckle chuckle. Use a couple of innertube rubber bands to hold it open once you have the bike warmed up.
For a cold start here is what has worked for me. Close the choke , tickle the float till you have fuel comming out of the carb onto the engine cases. Get the kick starter to a comfortable place buy useing the clutch to catch the starter gears with the lever as high as you can handle. Then do a strong swing on the kicker and just crack the throttle at the same time your foot is comming down. If the engines in good shape , timing and carb adjusted right it should start 1st or second kick. You may have to play with how much choke you use and every engine is a little different as to how long the choke needs to stay on.
We use the throttle and move the choke lever to keep it running till the bike is warmed up.
I would put a new plug in after all the one in the engine been through , make sure its gapped right.
Let us know how this works for you on cold starts.
Best way we found to remember which way the choke lever should be on the bigger Bings is. We need to lift the choke slide up to open the choke so , the position of the lever that has us looking at the most inner choke cable is the right way for the choke off.
John & Peter D.
Ron, thanks for trying to make me feel better!
John,
ok, thanks for the detailed instructions. I may get a chance to put them to use tomorrow, after I get the lights on the Christmas tree (ugh!). I appreciate your time. I'll report back what transpires.
By the way, here is where the March '06 pinup is spending her weekdays, in my Dad's office. I love seeing it every time I walk by it.
http://www.wordcom.com/dad.jpg
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Thats great Larry. Now what all you doing to your "74" Six Day?
Rod Whitman
1972 6 Day (Rider)
1972 6 Day (Project)
Larry,
I think your 250 Penton is a Great Tribute to your Father. I know he is smiling. Thank you for sharing the picture...now if I can just remember which way this choke lever goes;).
Ron Carbaugh
Ron,
Ouch! You really know how to "pour it on"! hehehe
Rod,
After the ISDTRR in Arkansas, my 125 was sagging with its tongue out - chainguard broke, bolt fell out of the triple tree, nut fell off of the right footpeg bolt, oil leaking from the gearshift shaft, clutch cable frayed (and it's green, to boot, so it was gonna have to go anyway), front forks leaking (I replaced them this summer, but I guess some of the Arkansas boulder introductions were too much for them), plus the frame is scraped and has been spot painted a few times , apparently. Soooo, I'm stripping the bike down to the frame - http://www.wordcom.com/125stripped.jpg . Did this yesterday, next taking it to my workroom at the office to take off wheels, handlebars, shocks. I'm going to sand and paint it myself (it's like cutting hair - if I mess it up, I can always just sand and paint again, or take it to a pro the second time). I'm also going to repaint the cylinder head, and would appreciate votes here as to whether I should stick with black, or paint it silver/grey. I also think I will repaint the wheel hubs, which are quite scratched up (unless someone can talk me out of it! And do I have to take off all the spokes to do it? yuck!) I already sent off and got back the pipe from being coated by Jet-Hot - it looks beautiful. Rear Koni shocks - I'll try to clean them up, if it's not enough then I'll have them rebuilt.
This was my first Penton in 32 years - I put so many dozens of hours this summer into getting it running, and then had such good luck/results with it in Arkansas, that I'm more interested in highlighting its intrinsic beauty and preserving its hardwon nicks and scars, instead of perfecting it to museum quality (a chemical peel, professional salon haircut, a suntan and some arful makeup, rather than plastic surgery). When I'm finished, this bike will sit in my office a good deal of the time, and I'll take it out and ride it easy once a month in good weather. This bike will never be sold. The 125 is my favorite of all Pentons - so light and athletic, it just instantly becomes an extension of your desire ("dive left!" "Jump" "slide right!" "Stop!" "get off and walk/push it over these creekbank boulders!").
I have a question about the '73 250 in my dad's office - would it be sacrilege if I painted the frame black on this bike? It occured to me that a black frame would really compliment and set off the gold tank and side panels/airbox. Any opinions ?
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
YES, it would be. But that's only my opinion.:)
Lew Mayer
Hi Larry,
I agree with Lew. Leave it original (silver). :)
Larry I think I would leave it silver, but its your bike. A lot of hours went into that bike.[:p][:p] It looks great in the office. Later Gary
Larry, on Sachs motors I bead blast the head and cylinder and leave raw aluminum. Paint the cases with Duplicolor DE 1650 Cast Coat aluminum. That is the combo used on the April and May bikes with the exception of the jug on the iron barrel motor painted black.
Dennis Jones
Dennis,
Thanks for the info. I suspect that's how I'll go, too.
Great story about the rear brake. How much fun is this stuff?! Makes me feel sorry for golfers (on many levels). I played golf a lot for years, and never had as much fun all put together as one afternoon on a dirt bike.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Gary,
I'm leaving it silver. I wasn't anything but just curious for some opinions.
Yes, that bike looks great sitting in Dad's office. It's running great, too.
Thanks for the input. Hope your ankle is nicely on the mend.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Jackpiner is starting easy and running like a top. I installed an Oring (per John Durrill's suggestion), and installed a #40 Pilot Jet (per Dave McCullough's suggestion) which replaced a #30 Pilot jet. The bike started on the first kick after that, and idled effortlessly. Thanks Dave!!!!!
This is a special group of people. I appreciate all of you.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Gouda, would also like to send a kudos to DJ for that Duplicolor cast alum. paint code, it has a unique greenish/pewter hue to it and is going on some triple trees and M-zoke fork sliders[:p]
Thanks DJ, Tom....