What, if anything, is different about this Penton?
(http://www.pentonusa.org/images/homepage/homepage_020606_closeup.jpg) (http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/)
(http://www.pentonusa.org/images/homepage/homepage_020606_large.jpg) (http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/)
Well, besides the 'non-standard' shade of
blue on tank and the decal, I see NO KTM logo,
if my ole eyes are working, seems to be
a 'PENTON' machined into the mag cover.
Frame also seems mighty 1971-ish,
also gas tank cap is steel tanker type.
Just a swag,
-don
Hi all,
A few quick observations. Bike has a centerstand. Has a front fender bracket from a Steeltanker and a fork brace. Looks like it may have 35mm forks and triple clamps from a Steeltanker. Also looks like the exhaust (minus the heatshield) is from CMF 125.
Dave McCullough
I'm thinking the forks look too small to be 35's!?!?! Swingarm only has one position for shock mounting and looks like an Amal Carb. Also the front mount for the tank strap looks different.
Donny Smith
.Front attachment of tank strap bolted onto frame, instead of usual hook-in-hole.
.Tank decals with slanted type.
.Unpainted top-end for '72 model.
.Bosch ignition instead of Motoplat.
I wonder how they got that 175 JP motor into that steeltanker frame [?]
Its also missing the rear motor mounts.
Raymond
Down East Pentons
Raymond,
That is not a Steel Tanker frame. Just thought I'd let you know that![8D]
Donny Smith
Cool! This could be my next project! I just borrowed that same centerstand from John B. to repop. Thanks Dane for the photos;)
Some bikes are described as "Show Quality" or "Pristine" this mount is a "Warrior". What a great looking Penton, who owns it?
Rod Whitman
1972 Six Day (Rider)
1972 Six Day (Project)
I like the "i'VE BEEN RIDDEN" a bit but not "ragged on" look ..
what a cool piece.. as with most bikes
.. I always like "the other guys bike" as much or more than my own!!!
It's time for me to get everybody thinking (guessing?) a little bit. I'll throw out one clue and see what sort of guesses people might provide. For those few people who might know something about this machine, don't give it away right off the bat.
Here's your clue: This bike was like no other Jackpiner produced.
Dane
Let me know when I can come out of the corner? This is really a neat monthly quiz.[:p]
Ron Carbaugh
Don't know much about Pentons, the frame seems to be an aftermarket or special. Look at the welding to cobby for a Penton. Kinda reminds me of a Cheney frame.
Dirk
Hello Poger's my guess on this Penton is that it is the true prototype of the 1972 KTM powered Jackpiner. Looks cool[8D]! Would it be possible to post some more pictures? I would to see the other side and some close up's of the engine, etc. Thanks for posting this one it is a great looking machine.[^] Crash Carden, Go Team Penton!
I don't know anything about the early bikes... but that looks like a sand cast cover... meaning one-off and as Crash says.. a proto..and the weld around the swingarm pivot.. whew.. as if there was relocation of some sort of the swingarm. Just my guess.
Freddie
HMMMMM! My wife is helping me figure this one out. Could the camera man submit some pics of the left side?
Bob Brizzee
Dane,
Its the one that had a Sachs Top End? Sure looks like a Sachs cylinder and head. Could be a 152 kit or a prototype 175/6 top end? It Looks like a 72 CMF frame .
John D.
Maybe this is a Six Day CMF frame modified for the KTM engine??
Donny Smith
The engine is all KTM; no Sachs parts.
Bob B. Sorry, but we only have one picture at this time. I'm trying to get some more, but this is all we have for now.
Dane
No that's not a production frame. There's no accommodations for the frame-to-engine reinforcment braces. There's not even a small frame gusset/plate in that area where the upper part of the engine brace would bolt to a mounting tab. And there's no clearance slot in the RH side case for a brace to mount to the engine. I'll bet this bike was built before they even thought of using the braces, or knew they needed them.
BobW
Hmmmm......I don't believe that particular type of paving material on the street is indigenous to the United States.
Rob, I think your onto somthing....that Penton may be located in Italy?
If in fact the picture is European in origin, would not a better guess to the country be the Motherland, Austria?
Patrick Houston
Tennessee
Come on guys your getting some traction...[:p]
Ron Carbaugh
This has to be the Jackpiner CMF Prototype, at the KTM facility in Austria.
Donny Smith
is it the first jackpiner, the one built with a puch engine. used by
Mr. Penton to force ktm into the 175cc market? just a guess.
Jim
OK, We give up what's the story?
Dennis Jones
Dane,
Can I give them a hint? Or better yet some help on where to find the answer.[8D]
Ron Carbaugh
OK sheriff, throw out a few teasers.
Dane
Anyone read the Book on John Penton? It is in there....look under the index and start narrowing it down. Good luck and thanks for all the great input for this quiz. This a very important part of the History of Penton moving from the 100/125 stage to the bigger size bikes.
Just a side note. Back in the early 70's I couldn't wait for Penton to move to the level. The next level for me was the 250 class since we didn't have a 175 class in MX. When I heard of the 250 I had to have one and the Gold Steak was sooo fast it was unbelievable. It truly was a World Classand Race Bike.[^]
Ron Carbaugh
It can be the 175 bike designed by Alois Marowetz, that one said KTM on the side covers. Was it Burlesons and Larsons prototype used in September 1971 on the Isle of Mann, where John intorduced the first 175 Jackpiner prototypes.
Raymond
Down East Pentons
The bikes that were used on the Isle of Man in the fall of 71, were light blue, like the production versions of the Jackpiners. And they had black engines too.
Dane
WAG here.. brake pedal runs under the footpeg instead of over...
as you can tell... I have little to add
I tried to blow up the engine case but it gets pretty fuzzy. It almost looks like Penton written above the oval that usually has KTM.
There's a jackpiner at the bottom of the second page of the '70's KTM webpage.
http://web.tiscali.it/ktm70pages/ann68-73.htm
There's a number of similarities.
Skip
I remember Jack Penton telling me one time that KTM's first motor they built was a 388cc. Could this be that motor?
The 388 had a head that looked similar to one of the old "flat head" Maico's. I'm still trying to get hold of a picture of a bike that I think is one of those machines.
Dane
Hard to tell for sure, but the swing arm looks like a late model Steel Tank Swing Arm??
Donny Smith
You guys have been wracking your brains long enough, so I'll fill in the blanks.
This machine is THE prototype of the production Jackpiner. I can't remember the exact time frame in which it was built, but it WAS after the "Puchton" that Kip has recreated. I'm pretty sure that it was either in late 70 or early 71, because as noted earlier, that there were machines that Dick Burleseon and Lars Larson rode at the ISDT at the Isle of Man in the fall of 71.
I believe that KTM was working on their own engines at the point that the Puchton was built, or at least had some idea of where they were going to go. During a conversation that I had with a good friend who still works for KTM, I learned that during the development of the engines, the Penton name had been cast into the engine cases. I had completely forgotten this, but in this picture, you can see the name over the KTM name on the clutch cover.
This machine came to the states for evaluation and was ridden for a while until the production machines started to filter in. It languished in the corner here for a while and then was put in the vestibule at Penton Imports in Lorain for a while before going back to Austria. Once it left here, I didn't really know much about what became of it.
Today, the bike resides in Bergamo, Italy, at the home of Arnaldo Farioli, the former Italian KTM distributor. I have been trying to get a picture of the bike for over a year now, and just before the POG meeting at the AMA, I was sent this lone picture. I am still working on taking some more, but at this point, this is all we have.
I don't know why the lever type cap went away between the prototype and the production machines, but I'm going to speculate that it had something to do with cost.
The frame bracing issue had to have come into play after the machines were being used for more motocross competition, because I'm pretty sure that woods riding wouldn't have stressed the frame to the point where it needed the bracing.
Another thing that I don't remember in the time frame, was when exactly the CMF machines began to be produced, but I'm pretty sure that this machine was the first of them that we saw.
Dane
Very enjoyable topic. The twists and turns of the development cycle are amazing to follow. Thanks Dane and others!
(Chakka, did you know the picture was taken in Italy?)
Patrick Houston
I had a hunch, I think I saw the picture before on an Italian web site and the image stuck in my head. I guess my memory is still semi intact!
Chakka
thanks for sharing that bit of JackPiner History with us Dane. I cant help but notice that plenty of us Poggers love this particular model.
Now I can sleep all day not wondering what the answer was [8D]
Raymond
Down East Pentons
I just got some more pictures today, and as soon as I can get them to Bill, I'm sure he'll get one posted.
Dane
Dane do you know why the colour change of the tank .. that dark blue really looks sharp .. BT
Brian Taylor
Brian,
Unlike the production versions of the machines, this tank was painted, where the production versions were gelcoat. That made them much more durable. The blue paint that they used on this machine, was a metallic color just like all the steel tankers prior to the CMFs.
Dane
Dane,
Thank you, you are simply our greatest asset of past and present knowledge circumferencing historical and technical information, that we as Penton owner's have. You are always a strong and true link to our questions/answers of the past. Your first-hand experiences on the topics goes without saying, you were there, and we could'nt find a greater account than your's to help us fill in the blanks. I am very grateful that we have the opportunity to discover and learn from you.
Thanks,
Bob W
This topic: The one and only Non-KTM branded Jackpiner ???
I like the light blue better :-)
Thanks to Dane, here are more images:
(http://www.pentonusa.org/images/homepage/homepage_020606_closeup2.jpg) (http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/)
(http://www.pentonusa.org/images/homepage/homepage_020606_large2.jpg) (http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/)
Check out the cool vented airbox cover.
Lew Mayer
For those of you who attended the POG meeting at the AMA, you may remember Jack Penton talking about a Hansa motorcycle that was sent to us to test after Jack had broken one in half. That machine, had the same sort of airbox in it, that this machine did, with the louvered side cover.
Dane
Cool, original flat Radaelli's, I love the headpipe, this photo will help in building my Hiro exhaust. The current sidepanels can be louvered with a bead roller if your careful.
Nice bike for sure !! Shift lever is just a bit too far from the footpeg for me though. [:0] Thanks for the pictures Dane and look forward to seeing some of the others you have !!
Dave McCullough
I saw the pictures of the first 250 KTM that Bruce Herbison ever saw, in a recent SKT. It had the same type of louvered LH sidecover. It looked so cool that I thought about doing a spare cover to match for dry riding. Wondered what it would do for jetting so let it go for now. Anyone ever tried it? Wildman
1975 250 Cross Country, 1974 175 Jackpiner, 1975 125
Gussets on the frame look hand made.They are straight sided instead of smooth curves like the production ones. The ones by rear of tank are missing. Rear shocks have chrome dust covers ,unlike production models. Exhaust tip has three springs instead of bolts. It has old style magura levers like the gas pipe frame models.The front fender has a deeper dish than the 72 production model. I would guess this is a early 72 prototype. gary king