I attended an ArenaCross race last night. So much fun - those guys are amazing. The jumps, the speed, the INSTANT acceleration.
The little kids division - 65cc and 85cc - was probably 90% KTM. But in all the normal divisions, not a single KTM 125, 250 or 450. Sad.
Is that all just 'marketing' and mnfr-rider support, or does KTM really not have a competitive motocross setup?
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Larry,
I am not sure of KTM and their rider support programs on the lower level of MX. But the KTM on the small size bikes is really the only race ready bike that is ahead of the power curve. I imagine the riders on the 125, 250 and Open class bikes depend more on local dealer support and what ever support they can get from the big 4 japanese manufactures.
As far as KTM having a winning combination for MX they do a outstanding job of a race what you buy Bike. I still believe that most riders suffer from not being in shape, not eating right or in the words of Tom Benolkin "would rather buy a new pipe than spend money on gas to practice till you drop".
Ron Carbaugh
We got an ArenaCross coming to Omaha on St.Patrick's weekend. Really looking foward to seeing it. Last time I saw a pro event was 1977 at the L.A. Coliseam.
Rod Whitman
1972 Six Day (Rider)
1972 Six Day (Project)
Arena cross, super cross are not Moto-cross. I think KTM is on the right track as they manufacture Off road motorcycles. Which covers alot more participnts than an indoor football type of event. Just an old farts opinion. Have Fun!
Hi Doug,
I agree that these things aren't motocross, or off-road events. But 5,000 to 15,000 people show up and pay to watch these events, and that's a lot of people that are gonna want the same equipment the winners ride, just like a zillion kids buy Nike's because Michael Jordan wore them.
My real question, I think, is: will KTM's focus and success in the 65cc kids classes translate into more KTM's being ridden in the bigger classes in years to come as those kids get older and bigger?
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Larry,
The real answer here I think is money. People today don't buy a race bike 2 or 3 times a year like a lot of people did in the 70's. Today a lot more people just watch the racing and don't race. I know first hand working for a manufacturer the Race Team was used as a marketing tool to sell the brand and not just the race bikes. I feel KTM focuses on the world market and tries to mix up the support for off road racing as much as possible.
The Last Man Standing Event was all but ignored by the Big 4, but it has some how turned out as a KTM (RED BULL) sponsored event won by the secondary sponsor???? Just reporting what my Friends feel about the outcome. Hey everybody could have shown up and the same results could have been recorded??
The last thing about bring up riders that stay on the same brand. Most marketing people in the industry feel like riders will go where the money is and there are no more Jeff Wards out there in the world today. The other thing is that Dealerships are becoming more just business people and less motorcycle people. Yes they are still out there, but it is big business, and with the internet, people just shop price so why concentrate on rider loyality.
All in all I feel like THE SHOW (Motorcycle Racing for the public) is just a money deal and that is there really isn't a warm feel for quality riders to progress to the top without THE MONEY SPONSOR. Life isn't always fair and neither is racing. I guess you hit a hot button since my days on the race team where we did help local talent and with some luck they did make it big. Now I am somewhat disappointed in the trick jumping and young people thinking that it is racing. On the other hand the introduction of Super Motard is exciting and something that takes REAL TALENT. Please remember that this is just my opinion and racing is racing. Oh, I have never raced stagecoaches or trains only because I wasn't ever offered a ride![:p] I hope everyone reads this and understands a big part of my life has been racing...of all types[8D]. Now what was the question?
Ron Carbaugh
Larry;
It would make sence that these kids as they grow up are not going to forget the great experiances they had with the KTMs. Many will get out of racing, maybe even through college. Then at a more mature age want to get back into off-road riding. What Brand do you think they will look at first? I think KTM has a fine future marketing plan. The super cross intermission show has the big four drooling and wishing that they had thought of it. Great topic.
Have fun!
Doug
I too ALWAYS root for the KTMs. They are dominant in the enduro and hare scramble circuits throughtout the US and of course Salmin (sp?) won the GNCC last year on one. But I too am saddened that KTM doesn't "go after" the supercross market because of the incredible exposure it has. Of course we will see KTMs doing well in the new endurocross series.
On another or maybe the same note, there were VERY few Pentons/KTMs at the AHRMA Phoenix national last weekend. Tom benolkin didn't come (family reasons?) so it left Dave Coupe to take all the honors. Curt Kennelly, another rider and I showed all the foreign bikes (Pentons are American aren't they???) a thing or two in the +60 grouping and Bob Egan did well in his races, but I think out of 800+ rider entries in 6 off road events, we were it as far as Pentons/KTMs are concerned.
How many of us will there be in Florida???
Teddy
Ron and Doug,
You both make good points. Ron, you're 'on the money' - A big % of the fans watching the Arenacross didn't appear to me to be motorcycle riders. They were just there to be entertained. And ArenaCross track is so tight/small that it's ALL about the hole shot and then you just watch the top 4 guys triple jump everything until the checkered flag in 5 laps or so (but it is fun to watch).
And Doug, I also think that those young riders will think about KTM when they get back to riding in their 40's .... unless they moved on to Jap bikes in their teens and had good experiences there, too.
Money - so true. I guess you have to pick your battles, and KTM has decided not to go head-to-head with the huge Japanese corps, but attack the niches where there's less focus by the Japanese.
But I also predict the following ... as off road racing gains in popularity, it will more and more show up on the Japanese radar, and they will attack that market aggressively. AND, as these young hotshoe motocrossers get to old to compete at the top level in motocross (you know, 28 - 30 years old), they'll look for other forms of racing that they can succeed in, and off road racing will attrack more of those guys, and they will be very very successful there, plus Super Motard, as well. If more of them were on KTM's in the motocross world, that would be more marketing muscle for KTM everywhere.
I mean, how hard can it be to just decide to make the best motocross bike available, and then do it? KTM's got a history of doing that over and over again. In every article I read, everyone praises the KTM engine, and everyone slams the suspension. Well, why doesn't KTM just address the complaints (even if half of the complaints are driven by the fact that the big 4 spend more ad dollars in the magazines, there's got to be something to the complaints for them to be so widespread) and present a kickass bike, then spend big bucks to get a couple of big name motocrossers to ride for them, and see what happens?
Just the opinion of a middle-aged, slow guy who wished he'd kept riding after he turned 16 and got his car license.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
I think the honchos at KTM are simply smart. Why kill yourself and your corporate wallet to get a sliver of exposure in American televised MX, Supercross, etc when the Japanese manufacturers are intent on using their horsepower to buy the talent with jumbo contracts? Why not concentrate on the markets where they have an established foothold and don't need to pay through the nose to promote themselves--European GPs, SuperMotard, Dakar Rally, 65cc kid's class---and just concentrate on making an exceptional quality out-of-the-crate product?
When I go to an off-road event put on by a local club in these parts, it's about 1/3 or more KTMs. Local motocross races, 1/2 the 65cc class is KTM. Check out the current standings in the Euro GPs--Yamaha holds the most wins, followed close by KTM, then Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki taking up the rear.
All the other smaller Euro brands tried various formulas to compete, promote and stay alive...and except for those that followed a niche like trials, they all died. Meanwhile, KTM gains ground slowly and continues to win fans with real riders who don't buy all the hype based on who's on what brand on TV. Last I heard, KTM has overtaken Kawasaki in US sales, all without the investment in the Big Show that was required of that brand.
I remembeer going to one of the first Arena cross events in the 80's that a friend of mines husband was promoting. I though it was kind of stupid after have been to many real MX events. Shows what I know. I also had a chance to invest in Hooters when it was a start up and did not do it. I thought the bikini car wash was a better idea.
Hi Mac,
Great points. I was a marketing major in college, so I'm always fascinated by the strategy and tactics of companies - how they see themselves and how they see their marketplaces, and therefore their futures.
Has KTM really exceeded Kawasaki sales in the US? That's intriguing. Didn't I read that Kawasaki and Suzuki are sharing joint R&D on frame production, or are sharing actual frame production?
Question: do you think James Stewart's success and celebrity will pump up Kawasaki sales in the US to a signicant degree?
Here's a question about marketing tactics: what about the idea of KTM offering a reward of $xxx to the winner of any local race of a certain level/rating, if the winner is riding a KTM. That would be an attempt to invest only in success, and provide a carrot for good, promising young riders to ride KTM (if the money was enough to be interesting to them). Or maybe KTM could incent its dealers to invest in local riders, in some manner.
I'm rambling on with this, because I'm a firm believer that success always attracts unwanted attention from your competition (Question 1: what can we do to succeed? Question 2: what can we do, after we succeed, to defend our success). The more success KTM enjoys in its offroad markets, the more it puts that market in the crosshairs of Honda and Yamaha, and it might be a good idea if it was making inroads into its competitors gravy markets. The more time and money Honda and Yamaha have to spend defending and innovating in their main markets, the less time and money they have to try and hunt in KTM's main markets - take the fight to the enemy, where feasible.
Actually, having some of the studly European offroad champs come ride over here in the States is a brilliant idea. It's a great way to promote KTM prowess. Kudos to KTM for that.
But I still don't understand why KTM can't provide suspension on its motocross bikes that motocrossers, as a group, applaud. Or is the US magazine business so corrupt with payoffs and quid-quo-pro arrangements that it's an impossible 'fix'.
I agree that KTM is obviously a smart company. I'm just musing for "musing's sake" because I like KTM and - because I own a small business in an era of big competitors - I'm interested in the tactics employed by small firms against huge competitors in their marketplaces.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Larry,
Your thought about $'s to the locals sounds pretty much like Kawasaki's Contingency program, which was big in the '90s. If you rode the brand and finished well in off-road events, you'd earn Kawasaki bucks. They were the most involved in non-pro racing, would bring a fully equipped truck/crew out to the SoCal desert events and seemed to be focused on support and dollars for the unknowns in order to build brand. I last lived and rode down there in the mid-90s so not sure the involvement today, but seems like they've scaled way back. It doesn't appear that it was very successful in my opinion.
I have no idea what setup the Euro GP motocrossers use on their KTMs, but seems to work fine for those guys, and their tracks are fairly close to the outdoor AMA series here. I just recently got cabled up to the Speed Channel, which covers the GP series, and was very surprised to see all the orange bikes leading the pack there, especially their domination over Honda this year.
I have read year after year the bike shoot outs and to my amazement, KTM never did better than 3rd out of the 5 brands tested... I could be wrong about that but not by much... The results could be for a number or reasons including those already mentioned. I am sure that the big dollars of the fab 4 does make a difference. After all they do have to sell Advertising space. However, I think it also needs to be said that a close look at the shoot outs and you will find that the differences are very small theses days. unlike when we were growing up and the differences in bikes were major. This is not my speculation but something I have read more than once from more than one magazine. Someone does have to be a winner.... like you I would love to see KTM on top once in awhile. I think that there are some differences that KTM has to offer that may not be so apparant on the Fab 4. Europeans seem to Value the money they spend on a bike much more than Americans do. So A KTM has to last a few years in order to justify the cost. Which by the way at least here in the USA in not that different from the Jap bikes.. And then there is the Off Road market. Mac is right you do see more KTM's in off road events... They just hold up. I think that is due in part to the heritage that has been handed down from John Penton.
As for Supercross and Arenacross, to me it is alot like the Circus coming to town. Alot of much content. I still believe that they are not good for the Sport. It has changed the way we do even Outdoor Motocross too. Too many seem to think that supercross and it little brother are the same thing as Motocross and they are not. Because of it outdoor national are looking more like supercross which translates to the local tracks looking like them as well. Supercross may be alright for the Pros but it can be really dangerous for the locals. I have a great nephew that has broken just about every bone in his body because of it. Just stop for a moment and count up the number of our Heros that are disabled for the rest of their lives because of the insane jumps and rythum sections that supercross feeds on. It is getting to be like the Roman colliseums of two millenium ago, wear men and women were slaughtered for entertainment. I realize that I am over the top and it is really not that bad but I state it this way to make a point. I race regually with a couple of guys that had riden the Supercross's in the early days and They both told me that is scared them to death, but they had to do it if they were going to get noticed by the Factories. From my perpective it was the Promoters setting the standards, all in an effort to turn a profit. Is there more money in the industry... yes, ARe there alot more riders yes, Are we on the edge of the Mainstream... yes has it brought better bikes.... yes, is more riders getting sponsors.... yes, but at what cost. And who really paid the bill?
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
Hi Thom,
great points.
The human costs have been paid mainly by the riders, of course, but then they've also enjoyed the lion's share of the highs. Same with race car drivers (heck, it's the same with regular drivers in traffic - how many people suffered whiplash before the car companies got the bright if tardy idea to put a headrest on top of the frickin' seat, and then decided to do it even if it cost a little more?). Same with computer software - 100 million people have to reboot their computers constantly, lose data frequently, suffer from viruses and spam daily ... and Bill Gates is earning $7.6 million PER DAY in interest on his billions. WAAAAAHHHHH!
It's the AMA's responsibility to put in regulations and limits on the size of jumps, etc on AMA sponsored events, to try and protect the riders. But, you're right again, it all comes down to $$$, and while true race fans would appreciate a great, sane track and excellent racing skills by the riders, the other 90% of the paying public wants to see circus-type thrills and spills.
One of the big problem with ArenaCross for me is the same complaint I have with Formula One racing .... not enough lead changes. Both venues have tracks so tight and restricted that it's almost impossible to pass, which makes for a boring race to me.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
A few years ago I was in the market to buy a NEW 125 cc MX bike for a young man that was a natural. I did tons of research, read all the bike shootouts and visited each and every Brand dealer to look at and feel the machines. It came to my conclusion when reading the Shootouts, that it was money....... $$$$$$$ determined the shootout results, nothing more. When you read what the riders themselves said, I felt it broke down to this. The expert riders who had ridden European bikes loved the KTM. The expert riders who had almost never ridden European bikes liked it, but not as well as bikes they were more used to. (This even goes back as far as 1976 when one of the magazines did a test between the 1976 KTM powered Penton 125 vs the CR 125 Honda) I bought a NEW 125 SX from one of our old Penton dealers in Oklahoma and had it shipped to CA. It was the fastest of the 125's and having NEVER ridden a Jap bike before, except for the 1st year TM400 Suzuki, it was a piece of cake. I rode all 4 of the others and I didn't like any of them. Power was all wrong, handled like crap. And they were HEAVY. A 125 should not weigh that much. I would be willing to bet, that if you took all 5 bikes to Europe and had 5 expert MX guys ride each of them (without Factory or $$$ influence) the results would be Much different. Just my 2 cents on that issue.
As far as Super Cross and such, it is all $$$$. How about a MX race like the old days. Take a rough piece of land, walk it and stake out a track, line em up and let them race for 45 minutes a Moto. Now to me, that would be a true Moto Cross.
Donny Smith
Donny,
I agree - the US rider reviews are tainted by their backgrounds, as are mine. I just hate it that $$$ rules and colors everything (I know ..... "time to grow up, Larry!")
I wonder if there are any European MX magazines? If so, I'd love to see how their MX brand "shootouts" have a different pecking order.
And I TOTALLY agree that about the weight issue - weight is one of the two biggest complaints I have with modern bikes (the other is that they sit up too damn high - I understand how that's necessary for 60' jumps, but how is a 37" seat height better for woods riding/racing? Why doesn't some manufacturer come up with a way of letting the user lower the frame or suspension heights 3 or 4 inches, or a third party offer aftermarket suspension to do that? Would it be possible?).
Also, just a personal preference - modern bikes fail miserably from an aesthetic standpoint. The late 60's/early 70's designs will be admired a hundred years from now - they're timeless. A hundred years from now, Is anyone going to fall in love with the look of a 2004 Big 4 MX design? It's like falling in love with a big wasp.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
HELLO
I just posted a question about KTM.
I can assure you KTM is waaaaay to expensive for the ordinary privateer to run.
The M/X machines are just not reliable enough for us regular folk to take a chance on.
I speak from experince and have switched to Yamaha for reliability and cost.
THANKS
I suppose since times are-a-chang'n and all, it's probably too late......, but could someone please replace all the cheesy Regional (amateur) Arena-X's with some good ol' fashion Professional Indoor Short Tracks. !!!!
b:Db
YES, YES, YES...... The kind where the ventilation was bad and you had to breathe all the 2 stroke fumes all night!!!!
Donny Smith
With all due respect, you really can't compare KTM with the Big 3 (or4). When was the last time there was a significant number of "left over" KTM's at your local dealer? It's usually not too tough to find last year's (or even 2 or 3 years ago) Hondakawazukiyamayomama down the street, other than certain limited production models. KTM pretty much sells everything they import, with rare exception.
KTM, with the exception of hiring McGrath, well past prime-time, doesn't appear to want to compete with the big guys' budgets when it comes to name riders. Does anyone think that it's Suzuki and Kawasaki that are "making" R.C. and Bubba the dominant riders they are? These guys could win on Whizzers. Do you think that if KTM dropped a big wad of money in front of Carmichael or Stewart they could have a chance at an MX championship of some sort?
In a slightly different vein within this thread, I'm not currently aware of any KTM reliability problems, save for the ones referenced within. Can anyone enlighten me? Also, cost-wise, I'm pretty sure that the prices of the most highly sought after of the Japanese bikes have substantially caught up with KTM's prices, not even considering the high quality componentry built into the Katooms.
And lastly, to dear Robbo, during the few times I was in San Francisco, back "in the day", it sure wasn't 2-stroke fumes permeating the air[:p]
Keithuu
Yes, yes, yes, I bought my first Penton/KTM because it was the most reliable bike out there.... you can't win if you don't finish.... That is really important in the woods... and it is no wonder that KTM's do so well with the off road croud. When I bought my first KTM it was the most expensive bike available and not just by a couple hundred bucks but alot more. but it was worth it. In summer of 74 I bought a new Maico GP 400 and it was 1800 bucks, the next year I bought the KTM and it was 2500 bucks, not these days, that is not much but then that was significant. Theses days that it no longer true and the KTM's of today maybe a little more money but not by much and if you add in the fact that you just get a better crafted bike then it is a whale of a deal...
I was 18 when I saw my first and only InterAm, That track was so tough I could not even walk some sections of the track. One section comes to mind was an off camber straight away. we are not talking 6 degress offcamber but 30 degrees off camber and if you did not stay on the course you were in the blackberry bushes... Now that is Motocross... I was watching a tribute to Dale senior the other day and they were saying that one of the positive things that came out of his death was the fact that they got a lot tougher on safety regulations. I hope it does not take the death of one of the beloved motocross heros to bring similar actions.
funny, I remember the days of indoor short track, my brother use to do that stuff so I went with him often. I smelled like blenzall for days...One of his favorite tracks if you can call it that, was at the Santa Clara fair grounds... home of the famous San Jose Mile.. any way they would open up one of the exibition halls and they would run it there... just enough room for a small set of grand stands and an oval track..... We pitted outside. and waited for his race. good times for sure.
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
I NEVER had a Penton/KTM die on me while I was flat tracking,NEVER!!! We had a money race coming up and I had a new 76 125 on order and it was sitting on the dock in C.A. due to a long shoreman strike.My father bought me a cr125 to race in this race and let me tell you that my Penton,when I got it would blow by that Honda with NO Problem!!None of the big 4 could run with a stock Penton!!You would have to rub on the jap bikes to make them run,and they did.The only problem I had was missing shifts on short tracks.The 3/8 mile was when I wasn't in such of a hurry to make the shift that the Sachs would shine.If I knew the people I know now .....well anyway. I rode a BOX STOCK Penton and ran in the front at all of the races.Tires and gearing that is all that was changed on my bike.At Orangeburg speedway a yamaha dealer was sitting with Ed Stokes/My local Penton dealer and he said that they thought I was running illegal fuel because the Penton was so fast.Ed said no but I washed my bike a lot.My Father liked a clean a bike.
Nothing I would love to see better than a tt or short track back in the lime light!! How about a scramble race? Racing is racing when it is a level playing field unlike supercross where the big 4 have a limo bring in a pair of zillon dollar forks for the superstar while the local guy is still trying to make the show.Like my father always said you can't out run money!Thank You guys for reading my ramblings! My blood runs ORANGE just not Clemson orange!!
Thomas Carmichael
1970 125 Six Day
1976 250 Hare Scrambler