Attempted to fire up a '75 Mint 400 for the first time tonight since reassembly, but it's Bing carb is leaking out the overflow, despite assurance the floats float, are adjusted per spec, and needle & seat seal up nice and tight. Everything tests out fine on the bench, but not when fuel is put through it. Seems odd to have to replace the floats??? Any suggestions? Also, suggestions on a supplier for Bing parts?
PS: Lordy is the Mint hard to kick over! I know it's been 30 years since my last Penton - a Hare Scrambler, and my kickin' leg aint what it used to be, but the Mint is the toughest bike to kick through I've ever experienced. In fact, she won't even budge without being CR'd up to TDC first. Typical? Everything's nice & fresh.
Ted,
Just a thought without being there to get in with the fun...are the floats OK. I mean they are not bad to where they sink? Easy check, but I have had this happen. Also did you do a seal check with the bowl off the carb and the gas turned on? I know you have probably thought about this, but I thought I would just see if I could help. If I think of anything else I will call you. By the way get you a box to stand on when kicking this baby....it helps.
Ron Carbaugh
Thanks for the bowl-off tip, Ron. I'll try it, but not sure what that'll tell me other than that fuel is getting into the bowl - it is. I'm already standing on a bike stand, but too many hyper-extension of the knee experiences keep me from putting my fat-arse weight behind the kicker, so I'm relying entirely on just my leg muscles - which apparently just aint makin' it. The mint did fire once so far - on starting fluid - so I know she's a runner.
Ron, I thought some more about your bowl-off suggestion, and realized you are describing a way to confirm that the needle and seat are definitely sealing. The possiblity of a worn needle/seat makes more sense than floats causing the problem. Took me a while . . .
Ted,
I really didn't explain myself very well. It is late and I have been looking at too many numbers today. Also please email me with your phone number I have another secret mission for you [:p] that might work in Still Keeping Track. Thanks for all you and your wife do for The Penton Owners Group. Also when I call you tell me which carb you have. Later my Friend.
Ron Carbaugh
Ted,
I cannot offer any better solutions than what Ron has posted.
As for the kicking a 400, add a compression release. Real easy to start, dosen't hurt you and nobody knows has caught up with you. Some of the MC's came with a compression release
It worked wonders for me on my KTM 495.
Tony
Sorry,
I meant to say, "and nobody knows old age has caught up to you"
Tony
Check for the little spring do-hickey that connects the float needle and the float. Sometimes the f. needle will hang up at the down position. Also check the float arm where the needle hits for a divot worn into the brass. It will make the end of the float needle jam slightly. A little creative fileing might help. Wildman
PS I think a compression release would be a VERY good idea, save a lot of strain on the kicker and kickee!
1975 250 Cross Country, 1974 175 Jackpiner, 1975 125
Thanks very much for the info, fellows. The Mint does have a properly functioning compression release, but other than using it to bring her up to TDC, I don't know how else to use it to help me fire the bike. Is there something else, which I'm unaware of?
Quotequote:Originally posted by OhioTed
Thanks very much for the info, fellows. The Mint does have a properly functioning compression release, but other than using it to bring her up to TDC, I don't know how else to use it to help me fire the bike. Is there something else, which I'm unaware of?
I stock some BING parts like NEW floats if you need them.
Speedy-->>>>>>>>
[email protected]Helmut Clasen KTM
162 Hillcrest Ave
L9H 4Y3
Dundas Ontario Canada
Ph.905-627-5349
[email protected]http://speedy_c.tripod.com
Sachs MC-GS 250-7A reeds
Hercules 350-7A
Hercules 250-7A
Zuendapp 125 GS
KTM 200 EXC 2003
KTM DUKE 96 Spec.
Ted,after you fix the carb problem you may want to check the timing to make sure its not advanced.that could make it tough to kick over and possibly cause you to make a trip to the doc's!Big bore 2 strokes HURT things (legs,ankles)when not timed right.also i never kick one over anymore without a boot on-been bitten too many times!Take Care, Ric
ric emmal
Hi Ted. I had the same problem with my 74 250 Scramber. I replaced the needle and float, but it still had a constant drool. I had the float height set but it still dripped non-stop. If I held the carb in a level position it would not leak, but as soon as I tipped it into the foward leaning position like it sits on the bike when it's mounted it would drool at will. I ended up bending the float tab just far enough that the "drooler lever" would have just enough clearance to still push the float down when you push it and it completely solved the problem. Bike ran crisp after that and would start cold in one or two kicks....with no more spooge! I think what happens is the seat for the needle gets worn and allows the needle to travel deeper into the seat? You would think that setting the float height correctly would take care of the wear issue, but it sure didn't for my bike. P.S. I sure can relate to the sore foot after kicking a Mint. First time I tried to start one I was wearing tennis shoes. What a fool I was. My foot was really sore the next day. I had 3 friends helping taking turns kicking....all with tennis shoes on and we all limped for the next day or two...[B)]
Thank you all so much for the input. Wildman, your suggestion in particular about a divot on the float tab was correct. I never would have thought! Actually, the first thing I did was to follow Ron's advice and tested the needle and seat with the bowl off. This told me that they are capable of sealing, but the divot was causing the float to hang up. Once I filed away the divot, there is no more dribbeling, but no fuel flows out the overflow when I push the tickler button, nor will the bike fire. I must have adjusted the float tab a bit too far - although it is very close to specs - touching the needle when horizontal. I'll have to take the carb off again, and readjust that float tab so the Mint will "tickle". Experience has told me that a non-choke equipped Penton will not fire unless you follow this procedure. Also, I tried putting a bit more weight behind the kicker, and as a result it is spinning over a bit better. I'm still gun shy about hyper-extension of the knee, though. If you've ever lived through such an experience, you know what I'm talking about. Thanks Speedy, for the info on Bing parts. I may still need to call you - the bike isn't running yet!
Ted,
The final bit of advice might be to move near me and share the big hill that extends down through my back yard. The bonus of this plan is that a country road runs below the hill and I can bring the pickup around and haul you back up if it doesn't fire, it was mostly my BSA's that needed that ride back up, and most of them now live elsewhere.
Paul
Tony is right about the compression release.. not one in the head but in the cylinder. you will notice that there is a casting hole in the side of the cylinder just for that, I am sure that you can find some locally that can help you with that. I have a Maico 400 that starts so much easier because of it. I can start it with out it but it takes several healthy boots to get it done... I tend to think of myself as a tough guy and think it is wimpy to have such a device but the reality is that by using one you are actually saving the bike.... not to mention your knees. That kickstarter takes alot of abuse and using a compression release drastically reduces the wear and tear.... I broke one on the 250 and getting another at the time proved to be expensive.... Save your bike and your knees... get a compression release.
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
One thing I've been doing when its cold out (30f + or -) to get the big bore KTM's and Pentons started is to lay them down for a second or 2 on their sides. This will flood them out and make them start.
I dunno how many KTM riders I've seen do this up here in the North East, especially in November, but it works !!
Raymond
Down East Pentons
If you have the comp. release on the side of the cylinder, just keep it open whilst kicking. Because the C.R. hole is up higher than the exhaust port it bleeds some of the compression off while still giving enough to start. The bike will run with the C.R. on, not like a cylinder head mounted device would. Try it, you'll like it! Wildman
1975 250 Cross Country, 1974 175 Jackpiner, 1975 125
Got an update, and a request for more advice, guys. First off, the compression release relocation solved the kicking-over problem. Thank you! However, despite hands-on assistance from R.C., the old Bing still drools all over itself. Plus, I've only been able to get the bike to fire once, and that was a wide-open, screamin' episode that only lasted a few seconds, as I frantically stabbed at the kill switch. Oh, and it did kick back one after that (ouch!) when I tried supplementing the process by squirting starting fluid into the carb throat. Questions at this point: Speedy, you say you have some Bing parts, but what will it take to solve this? I've been back to testing the carb off the bike, and the needle and seat are capable of sealing, but won't. The floats just don't seem to be able to exert enough pressure to bring about the seal. I'm also considering a Mikuni conversion, so as to have a nice, fresh start, with new components. Originality is secondary to getting the bike running at this point. However, what info can you fellows offer, for application, installation, and setup of a Mikuni for this Mint? I tried doing a "Mikuni" search on the POG site, but so many hits turned up that I don't think I'll live long enough to research all the available info. Hoping for some direct advice, please? Thanks to all who have contributed. Ted
Ted, I bet Ron is right or the float needle is bad or the float seat is shot (ie carb is shot). You have to kick those 400's like your trying to break off the kick lever shaft. Mine will kick back mean if I dont show it whos boss! Get mad and get mean!! However I NEVER kick it without my boot on. Believe me you want your boot on!!! I can still feel the pain from that day that jerk bike got me!!!
Ted,
Bing will replace the brass seat for the float needle if you send them the carb body. They also sell a kit and you can do it yourself or have someone local do it.
Mikunis are good carbs just getting the right jetting in one can take time and cost some money unless someone has the mikuni jetting dialed in close for you.
John D.