Mac and I rode an enduro this last weekend, it was my first but I am sure that it will not be my last, It was only a beginers enduro so it was not too tough, the trail was pretty tought deep ruts, huge exposed roots, large rocks and slick mud, fortunuatly it was only 30 miles so it was not too bad. I did ok, I finished 10th out of 16 riders and Mac finished 12th out of I think 17 riders, Mac went down hard after the first check point and broke the front brake lever and smashed the rear brake lever so tight against the engine case it would not move, he managed to get it some what freed up and then raced like mad to get back on time after loosing 10 minutes, boy is it easy to loose time. I feel pretty good about the weekend since I rode my 76 250.... lets just say I have alot to learn about this enduro stuff,
question, speaking of Key time, shouldn't the clocks at each check point have the same time? as I learned I had to adjust my clock to reflect my starting time so that as I got to each check point... if I was on time.... the key time and my clock should match...right? Therefore shouldn't all the check points times match as well?... at any given point in time...
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
This was my 2nd enduro and talked Thom into coming and riding his '76 KTM 250. Planned to ride my '77 GS6 but suffered a Moto-splat meltdown just before so rode my '94 300MXC. We first heard some grief from club members about air-cooled bikes and noise in the forest, etc., but Thom got lots of "cool bike" accolades once the event got underway, and I was surprised at how well he made the '76 go on pretty tight, slick, rutted trails. This beginner enduro was only 32 miles and top avg speed only 18mph, but it was demanding with only one slow section. With timekeeping practice and woods seat time, pretty sure the old bikes would keep up pretty well with other non-computerized timekeepers. Just need to talk these guys into a vintage-evo class.
Trying to stay on-minute, even at slower avg speeds, while watching trail and course markers is tough, tough, tough. To truly appreciate what it meant to "high-point" a big enduro event like JP did at the Corduroy or such, on old iron and with 100s of miles on just a speedo and clock, everyone ought to give an enduro event a try.
Mac
Thom,
Glad to hear that you guys are out knocking down trees with the old bikes! Once you get the hang of this enduro timing stuff, it's really not that hard. One of the easiest ways to understand more is to go out and help work a check sometime. Come up to Ohio this weekend and you can help me work one at the National Enduro in Athens. Now about your questions:
Quotequote:I had to adjust my clock to reflect my starting time so that as I got to each check point
When you set your watch to the official Key Time before the start, you should never have to touch your watch again during the event. When you did set your watch to Key Time, did you set it back the minute(s) to reflect your starting minute/number? For example, if your starting minute/number is 15, then you should have set you watch
back 15 minutes from the Key Time to reflect your start minute. So if the event started at 10:00am, and you left the line on time, the watch held by the starter would have said 10:15, but
your watch would only say 10:00. That way your watch matches the Key time at all of the checks (if your on time), and the times at the turns on the route sheet. Am I making any since here or just confusing you even more?
Quotequote:speaking of Key time, shouldn't the clocks at each check point have the same time?
What do you mean about this?
Gary
Gary, thanks for the reply, yes I did that. I The start time was 12 noon so I set my clock back 36 minutes because my start time was 12:36, so when I got to the starting gate, my clock said 12 noon, Mac and I started on the same minute.
my question is should not all the check point clocks be set to the same time. So that no matter where you are all the clocks read the same time. ARe you saying that my clock and the official clock should only read the same if I am on time? I am confussed. I guess I need to go back and reread the information I was given at the begining of the ride.
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
Thom: Yes you are correct all the checkers should be the exact same time at any given moment in the day. Your watch should never match theirs as they did not set back for your number. Say a check is at 12 miles out and it is a 24mph enduro. You are due there exactly 30 minutes after you left start line. If KEY time was 11:00am then the checkers "watch" would read Key time 11:00 + 30 min (mileage adjustment) + your number when you are due. If you were #15 then their watch would read 11:45 when your were due. Ted
Thom - What time the check clock reads depends on the system used. What counts is the number showing on the flip cards. When on time you would see your riding number displayed. By the way, the flip numbers are for the benefit of the checkers, not the riders. Some check crews will therefore locate the numbers so they can't be seen by the rider. Don't forget rule one though - have fun.
Young Ted
Thanks guys, I think I understand. I should be able to tell that I am on time because the my watch and trip meter corralate, to the information given to me by the enduro chart. So I am not just trying to stay on time from one check to the next but also from the start to each check point, so if I get behind on anyone check I need to catch that up so that I will be on time, and my trip meter, watch and chart will once again, work corralate.[?]:D
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
Tom,
Mucho congrats on riding your '76 in the enduro. That's pure class. Hard to add more about timekeeping than what was written by the exceptionally capable Mr. Roach, however here is something I always kept in the back of my mind to stay on track: Of the three considerations in enduro competition; time, speed, and distance, only time is constant. Your speed varies, and you may apply "resets" to your mileage, but once you set your key time and leave on your minute, that old clock never stops. 'Course, this understanding never did much for my own performance in enduros, as I just never could quite get a handle on that whole "going fast" thing.
OhioTed,
Thanks for the compliment, but t20sl (Ted Atkinson) is the expert when it comes to enduros. I'm trying to remember, but I think he rode SL Hondas for while, then IT Yamahas. I was too young to ride enduros back then, but I got to go with my Dad, and Ted was always a threat for the Overall win. He used to give former National Enduro Champion Terry Cunningham fits at the District 11 enduros!
t20sl,
Sorry I missed meeting you at the National Enduro last weekend. Thanks for the heads up the Jackpiners for sale, but Cletus said that he's now going to keep them.
HD Raidel (Heinz Raidel) is another fast Six-Day and AA District 11 rider on this site. He is still active in the club that puts on the Little Burr enduro. I bet he and t20sl did some bar bangin' a few years back!
Enduros, unfortunately, is a dying sport. Land use issues, the expense of a $400 computer just to be competitive, and issues on making your bike street legal are just some of the things that's killing it. I know here in southern Ohio, 30 years ago we had 30 or more enduros, now were lucky to have 8. And the cost for a club to put on an enduro has skyrocketed over the years. I had no clue how much it cost until I joined a club, and boy, was I shocked! A club could easily shell out $2,000 in expenses before the event, and only pray that enough riders show up to cover their cost. Things like clubmember bike maintainence (tires, fuel, brake pads, etc), clubmember meals, land rental, consession stand food and supplies, to name a few. And have you priced what it cost to rent Port-A-Johns lately? We use thousands of arrows to put on a 100+ mile run, and the cost for a case of them is more than the budget of some 3rd World countries! But seriously, because less and less riders are showing up at enduros, the club has to pass the expenses along to the riders in the way off higher entry fees. Years ago, you had 300 riders show up at a run, now your lucky to have a hundred. If the club can't make enough money to cover their expenses, than they're not going to put on enduros. Trust me, there is a lot more profit in putting on a hare scramble than an enduro, which is another reason why enduros are dying.
But there may be some light at the end of the tunnel. I was told by a very reliable source that a group of old enduro riders are out to change some things. Dick Burleson, Randy Hawkins, Alan Randt (owner of Enduro Engineering and Lansing Cycle), and Steve Wheeler (A local District 11 rider, a whiz at timekeeping, Prez of the NSER club, and always out to try to make the sport better) to name a few, are getting together with the AMA to try to save enduros. Some of the changes may be in the way of having restarts. This means that when you start, you go like hell as fast as you can until you come to the next checkpoint. Then they restart you at the next wood section, and then go like hell again. This will eliminate the need for timekeeping and a computer. Another thing is closed coarse enduros. This means that the hole run is layed out without any roads. No roads mean that your bike doesn't have to be street legal, but not too many areas have enough land to put on a 100+ mile enduro. I can't think of anywhere here in southern Ohio that has that kind of land useage. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Gary
Gary: Thanks for the praise! I am a firm believer in resets to get everyone back on time who wants to. Many B and C riders are out for fun and really don't care but many of us still do. Racing down public roads doesn't help the sport either. I am not sure I like the restarts. Sounds too much like an all day hare scramble. Time keeping always was part of the sport. Whether you do it in your head or with a computer it also takes some skill and self control. Many really fast riders could out run enduro winners in the woods but could't time keep. It takes skill to ride fast and think about time. If that is taken out of the sport I don't think you can call it an Enduro anymore. Clubs need to put on more fun enduros where the scores are high and everyone has a good time. "B" class only enduros used to have a huge turnout. Reason was everyopne knew it would be fun! In Ohio, as you said, we had as many as 20 in a year. Mostly between Sept thru May. When I was riding competetively I tried to say away from the summer runs, too hot. Now all we seem to have is hot summer enduros. The best weather and scenery in Ohio is the spring and fall. Many clubs today are out to see how late they can make the riders and that is part of the problem why the sport is dying out. If a rider is out just to have fun why pay $40 - 60 bucks when you can just go ride trails all day with your buddies. The national enduro at Wellston, OH this summer had only about 60 finishers. How many fun riders will come back to that event next year? In New England they used to give you a new number at each check if you were late. If your number was 10 and you arrived 3 minutes late you were now 13. Was tough to score but racing down the roads was stopped and time keeping was still involved. That may be a possiblity that those guys could look into. Ted Atkinson
I just bought another KTM 78 250 MX-6, (MC-5 with desert tank and enduro lighting), last week and am preparing it for the Renunion run in St. Joe Missouri. Does the bike have to be licensed and registered street legal to compete in these type of Enduro events, as I understand some courses actually use local roads for a small portion of the competition? I'm a newbie at this and would like to try it for fun and excitement! Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 250'S
Mike,
For the ISDT Reunion Rides, they've typically asked that your bike have a headlight and taillight so as to be equipment-correct, but no license plate needed and no public roads at the Missouri location. When I attended that ISDTR there in 2002, they didn't even have a tech for spark arrestors and lots of guys had an old reflector zip-tied on the rear fender, many with no headlights at all.
I for one would like to see the ISDTR rules changed to give bonus points (or credits against time) for operating headlights/taillights, brake light, and maybe street plates at the beginning of the weekend, and then a few extra credits if all are still there and operating at the end of the final MX. That way there's some brownie points for the true enduro bikes and motivation for bike owners to restore true ISDT type bikes and not just MXers with a headlight duct-taped to the crossbar. Plus would give Penton owners an advantage from the get go! Mac
The club that put on the Enduro that Jon and I attended sure did a good job. I think it is a great idea to have "beginner enduro's" I wa amazed at how fast 14mile average really is... In addition to that they had put on a short event that was set up for the family, I was amazed to see this little girl... 6 or 7 years of age riding with her parents in the woods and finished the short course... how cool is that.... This weekend I was at a race in Spokane, and next door saturday nite there was a cart race going on. and the youngest kids racing were 5 years of age.... What a great way to teach kids about such things as Discipline, self-control and the importance of making good choices.... These are things that will serv them well no matter what they decide to do when they grow up. Not to mention Preserve the sport for the next generation....Hmmm maybe there are a few vintage motorcycle groups that could learn a thing or two about passing it on to the next generation...(Present company excluded)
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
Thanks Mac,
My bike has a PP headlight and brake light switch with most of the wiring still intact and I just picked up a nice PP IT rear fender with tail light and am going to try to make it all functional for the most part. The original speedo is toast possibly due to excessive vibration from very loose engine mounts, so that part of the timing of the event may not be so good. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 250'S