I don't mean to offend any or all but this site has changed sooo much in the last five years. Back in "The Day" many years ago most everyone I knew that had a Penton raced it. That was what they were built to do. When I first came to this site the majority of the people and postings related to getting the bikes restored to go out and do battle.
Now the vast majority of posts deal with what I call the anality of restore. Five years ago there would not be a second thought of a grey color that was off a few shades or whether the bike in question was a 73, 73.5, or 73.75. This year at Mid-Ohio I saw a really beautiful restore and heard someone anal say, "The frame is not the right color." In "The Day I once painted a Penton frame black and put yellow Petty fenders on it. Guess what it was still a Penton and it still won races. Was it Historically correct? No but it wasn't going in a museum. Is yours going in one? If not then what does it matter? Restore it and at least ride it. Better yet race it.
I suspect that many that own Pentons today wanted one then but either did not swing the $$ or did not have the strong right wrist. Now they want a pretty Historically correct Penton to look at and say I am a Penton owner. If you own a race horse but don't race it is it truely a race horse? My Grandpa used to say, "Just cause the cat has kittens in the oven doesn't mean we will call them biscuits."
The second most posts seems to be about many things that don't have anything to do with motorcycles at all. I am sure this is what web sites are probably about but I just don't get it. The geek factor is just too strong for me many times but I am quiet so I don't offend. Just couldn't bite my lip anymore. I am glad all the trivial info that gets repeated again and again is helpful to so many people. That is a good thing it is just alot to wade through sometimes.
I will never understand however the need to get it exactly right. There was no exactly right for Penton or KTM. There was no totally correct headlight or anything else. Every rule was occasionally broken because what was used is what was available. The few rules were constantly broken and if you look at race photos from back then there were many personalized additions like the "Wrong" color tank. Jack Penton once won a Gold Medal at the ISDT on a blue tanked 125. Good thing the FIM didn't say, "I am sorry Jack we can not give you the Gold as your Penton is not Historically correct."
All of this is why I am building a way fast 125 with a blue tank and orange Petty fenders. Years from now someone will probably say it is not Historically correct. If there is justice they will have forgotten it is wrong and they won't even know it is a 74.5 model. Rest assured though they will know the gist of what a Penton looked like and if they RIDE IT they will surely say, "Man these old bikes railed."
You are welcome to call me a Prima Donna since I called some Geeks. My skin is tough. Just wanted to let you know that the focus of the site is changed and for me it is not for the better. So you guys enjoy and I will try to be quieter.
In the mean time I will sell my 175 Cross-Country Penton. I won't offer it here first because it has a red tank on it and that is not correct. The frame color is close, though. By the way it is a National Winner in AHRMA Cross-Country because it does not know it is not Historically Correct.
Ride 'em don't hide 'em!
Larry P[8]
Larry, I agree with alot of what you said. I believe the Penton motorcycle was built to be ridden not hidden. I try to ride mine every weekend if possible. This makes me happy I have alot of fun doing this. On the other hand the project bike I'm working on, I'm going to try to make it as close to original as possible. I love the hunt for the parts, studying old pictures and eyeballing other guys restorations. This also makes me happy and I have fun doing this.
The main thing is to have fun with it. Weather it be racing, cow trailing or restoration enjoy it the way you want.
Rod Whitman
1972 Six Day (Rider)
1972 Six Day (Project)
Larry, As rare as the Penton steel tankers are would you really go out and race one? Parts are hard to find why not put it up for looks?I wanted my 76 250 GS to look right before I raced it.I am just anal about how things look even though I had BARK BUSTERS on it until Greg Holder dogged me about them!Now I am back in line![:p]
Thomas Carmichael
1970 125 Six Day
1976 250 Hare Scrambler
I understand and respect a person's right to restore their bike to showroom condition. And the forum does well to accomodate everyone's idea of how a Penton should be restored.
For me, I wanted a racer that reflected how a bike would have really been raced. Here in California you would never see anyone outside of a new novice racing a Penton stock. Alloy fenders replaced with Preston Pettys, Spaghetti rims replaced with Akronts, Lackluster shocks replaced with Konis, exhaust "pickle pipe" cut off and replaced with a silencer stinger, chain guards tossed, and clunky metal number plates and brackets replaced with a plastic plate and zip ties. If you had the bucks, a Hi Point alloy tank replaced the larger toaster tank.
Larry, if you want to make that 175 correct, I have a blue toaster tank in the garage that I would trade out for a red one........
First, let me say that I straddle the fence on this issue. (Actually, I don't even think there is an issue or a fence but I will address what Larry considers to be an issue and a fence.) For example, my race bikes are built to race hard and win. On the other hand, when the AMA Museum called wanting a concours quality MC5 for their current exhibit, I was more than happy to build one for them.
Larry, you are no different or better than the "geeks" that you proclaim stand on the opposite side of the fence from you. You're the one that built the fence to begin with. Motohistorians, restorers, and preservationists all play an important role in the Penton legacy. Just because their interest is different than yours doesn't make them wrong. Where does the need to criticize others and label them come from? The fact of the matter is people are enjoying their Pentons. Why not be happy for them? In my mind, it's all good.
I tend to believe the majority of us are just trying to enjoy Pentons. Personally, I like all Pentons. From Young Ted's well worn stump jumper to Kevin Grime's "Leroy" replica. From Ollie Martin's modernized Penton to Kip's show quality Penton/Puch replica. From Tom's "Freightliner" and "Silver Bullet" to Mike Winter's drag bike. Everyone has a different vision for their Penton and I enjoy the hell out of each and every one of them.
Larry, POG is "Dedicated to the Preservation, Restoration, and Riding of the Penton Brand of Motorcycles Distributed By John Penton", not just racing. I think this forum does a wonderful job of meeting the needs of all Penton enthusiasts and is a tremendous help to people trying to create the Penton of their dreams. What can be wrong with that? Just because someone wants something different from their Penton than you do that makes them a "geek" or "anal"? If you don't enjoy a topic on frame color, for example, then don't read it. If the only Penton topic you enjoy is racing then read those posts and enjoy. Or better yet, instead of criticizing others, why not start some good racing topics, post some cool photos, etc? I, for one, would enjoy them very much.
Kent
Kent, I would'nt mind being called a Geek or even a Nerd, heck, in some circles that would be a compliment[8D]
Some of my Pentons are very different, and some are pretty accurate renditions, but what is most important to Me, is that I have the opportunity to do whatever I please.
Thanks to "?" I live in America, a land of dreams and opportunity!
Great topic!
Tom Brosius
Larry:
There is one issue that I don't think you're considering in your perspective: age and structure. Some of us have been unfortunate enough to have things happen to our bodies, that prevent us from riding. Some of us, have a competitive spirit, that we can't control. We want to get on a bike and ride like we did when we were kids, but our bodies won't take that sort of abuse any more. And if we're smart enough to recognize that, it is better to admire the machinery than to abuse them. And if you do get hurt badly enough, maybe then you can't tinker with the machinery.
Since I rode the motorcycles all the way through the era and didn't leave motorcycling at any time in my life, I advanced with the technologies of off road motorcycling. And as the technologies advanced, it was easier and more enjoyable to ride a newer machine. Why would I want to go back and try to go fast on a machine with as little advancements as the Pentons compared to the modern machinery? Remember that issue of not being able to control the competitive nature?
On the other hand, I recognize the value of the Penton motorcycles to the advancement of the technologies. It is for that reason, that I am abolutely amazed at the time and efforts that the restoration buffs put into doing the restorations to the bikes. I know that Mark Mederski told us at one time, that bikes that have a history, are more valuable if left in the state in which they were ridden, but I personally, want things all neat and tidy. If you have a bike that belonged to Carl Cranke that was used in the Baja events, I'd still want it just as pristine as I could make it. That's the way I am. When something was designed or conceived, I'm pretty sure that it wasn't done so with ugly welds, dents, or scratched paint.
And of course there is the issue of being able to find all the parts. As time passes, they get more and more scarce. If I wanted to keep a Penton for the rest of my life, I certainly wouldn't be riding it week in and week out. I think that's why you find so many people who have two Pentons: one that they can look at and one that they can ride.
As for the purpose of the Web site, it is an information source, period. For racing information, part sources, technical information, or whatever. If you need info, here it is or can be.
Lastly, just remember that we're all different and we all have our own perspectives. That's what makes this an interesting world.
Dane
If I may offer a suggestion and an opinion.
Not to increase the burden on the webmaster, who/whom do a great job, but it might be that if the message board could be reconfigured with a "restoration" forum to handle all the "what paint?", "what process?" type of questions, and a "racin' and ridin'" forum for those not interested.
My opinion is that I am glad these old bikes are being preserved and being raced, and I think we need all the pro-motorcyclist, pro-dirt bike, and pro-Penton people we can get regardless of their particular field of interest.
Patrick Houston
I was going to jump in here, but from reading other posts, alot has been said, pro and con. Basically it's your bike, build it the way you want it.
Breaking the board down into sub catagories, would make things a little easier, if you knew what you were looking for. Or have a dedicated page with that info. Possible??
And Larry, if you heard that comment about paint color, you should have asked how do you know?? or can you prove it??
And to the term historically correct, does that mean as built or as raced?? Both would be "correct" historically. Have a good day. Dan
Thomas
I would race a steel tanker if it fit well into the AHRMA structure. I proposed to AHRMA to alloy the cast iron motored Sachs bikes into Premier Lightweight but they said no can do. Mark Annan raced one well in the first ISDT Reunion at Park Hills. I give him props for a tough ride.
SoCalmx
I am fine with the Piner and the red tank and don't feel a need to make it "Correct". If the new owner is more picky I have a blue tank for it. This one is a 75-76 with the watermelon tank and rubber bungees instead of the leather and toaster tank. But thanks for the offer.
Kent
I did not intend to offend. I wasn't meaning anyone was right or wrong. In America we can all do pretty much what we please even question something we don't understand or that bugs us. I never think I am better than anyone. I am no more or less than the next guy. I just don't get why so many feel the need to be so correct. I just don't get it and brought it up. Sure when one is being done for the AMA museum it should be correct. I saw your MC5 at the museum and it is beautiful but to be honest with you I think the frame grey is a little darker than they were. Didn't bother me though as it was a beautiful example of my favorite Penton. I wasn't trying to make a fence either I was just verbalizing that one was growing in my view that was keeping me from seeing what seems important to me. You are right, I can dodge some of the posts and if there are too many to suit me I can not read any. I did that for a long time and maybe that was better for all.
Tom
You will never be a geek in my book. You are always marching to a different drummer and I dig that. You are also correct that geek does not have to be a bad monniker. You are always welcome at my campfire, Tom.
Dane
I respect and value your opinion greatly and you explain some good points on restoration I had not seen. I very much agree that it is good to have differences. I certainly would not want the whole world to think like me. That would be a scarry place.
Patrick
I like your ideas on more division of topic and a special section for restore info. The racing one hasn't worked so well though as one of the longest posts is about the suffering of a friend. Great topic just not racing. You ideas sound good to me, however. Maybe someone in charge will think on it.
Hopefully discussion will make it all better in the end. In the mean time I will just shake my head and not understand completely.
Larry P
I must be a real weirdo...I like to see Pentons (and ALL the other vintage marques) raced, restored, found in barns with years of dust, seen on eBay with all sorts of weird modifications and/or parts that don't match...I just like seeing old stuff (which implies that I'm old now, too!) period! Personally I wouldn't know (or really care for that matter) which shade of grey or silver-grey is 100% authentic, but there are those to whom these things do matter when they are building or looking at a concourse resto bike...and that's fine with me.
I personally like the idea of a couple more forum categories, particularly one for personal info. I am quite guilty of posting info on veteran riders, especially the ISDT guys, in the general discussion forum, but that's only because I know it will get read there and some of us other "senior" types will know who I'm writing about. As we and the heroes of our youth age, there will be an increasing need to disseminate info about health issues, obituaries and the like. You have my vote for increasing the forum options within this already fantastic site.
Jeff DeBell
This is an old controversy and my feeling is that there is room for everyone. Speaking for myself, I have very poor eyesight and cannot race. I enjoy building the most accurate Pentons I can and entering them in shows. I think it will be noce in 20 or so years to have a few Pentons around still in showroom condition.
I plead guilty to being anal retentive regarding research and execution of my restorations. There is no such thing as "good enough". It has to be as good as I can possibly make it.
Anyway, There's room for all of us and I think both schools of thought complement one another.
Larry
Great topic, got some action going on the board. I prefer to restore old bikes and ride the modern machines with power valves, water cooling, and brakes!! I do enjoy riding my 78 MC5 250 at the Reunion Ride. You are very correct on saying that whatever was laying around may end up on the next Penton, seems like no two were alike. I had a 77 Penton 100, Sachs motor, with long travel frame, that nobody seems to know anything about, Bill Cappel in Oregon owns it now. I imagine it was some leftover parts that became a motorcycle.
Tom B.,
You always bring a smile to my face with your comments, sometimes I don't fully understand, but I always smile. Hope to see you at the Reunion Ride this year.
Kent,
Definately a concours job on your Museum bike, beautiful!!!! I even saw a picture of it on the KTMTalk site.
Rocket :D
Hey Guys, I dug up a old picture album of our Penton Shop in Anaheim, CA. and some racing photos.
I'll try to find some time this week to post them. I sure many of you will appreciate them.
Davee Collins (Collins & Son, Penton / Maico)
Larry we are entering the Baroque era of the hobby. Over restoring will be the wave for the next few years. After that will be wild performance customs like you are building. you are leading the pack as usual. Maybe we will see some customs with wild paint jobs and maybe Bolger suspention systems or a Cheney type leading link. The possiblilites are endless. Berkshire roadracer with alloy tank rearsets, clip ons and Bridgstone front wheel.
I have to get to work on my Greeves Pathfinder Super Moto.
Larry,Please don't take this the wrong way.The racing talk section post on my dog Mert certainly does not belong there,but i started the post as a note to say i was selling some race bikes.It should have been in the wanted/for sale section.As you know it then took on a life of its own.I figured i kind of owed it to those interested to keep them informed.after i thanked everyone i tried to remove it and post offline to those that ask,but was unable to.I'll attempt to remove it again and start a post elsewhere on his progress (or lack of).I understand your frustration and i'm really sorry-i was afraid something like this might happen a long time back.We've dealt with each other and talked a few times and i respect you and your opinion a lot.Sincerly,Ric
ric emmal
Ric,
Please don't remove the thread especially on my account. It is very touching and animals have been some of my best friends. I feel for you. They just don't live long enough and pull at our heart strings. I just used it as example. You are great and I hope all goes well for Mert. You could Start a new thread in General-"The Mert Report". I would smile reading it and keeping up.
Larry P
When I build bikes for racing the bike can be any color combo on any given race year. The only stock parts would be the major components. The purpose of the bike is to win races, its not real pretty all of the time. When I do a restore I base it on a factory color sales brochure for that year of bike .Myself ,it has to be done as close to stock or SPOT-ON if I have all the parts to get it that way. Restores should be done in this way as to keep up the bikes value after the investments.[:0]
The "wrong" blue color gas tank on Jack Penton's ISDT machine, that Larry mentioned in his opening post, was actually the correct color of the Team Penton ISDT machines in the years that I was involved with the Team. All of the Team Penton machines had blue gas tanks, airboxes and numberplate/airbox covers. I guess blue was chosen as it matched the blue of the Team USA helmets.
Many guys have commented over the years as to how they really appreciate the fact that they can ask any question about their Penton on this website and never get the feeling that it was a dumb question, that is a wonderful compliment, and one that I hope we continue to be worthy of.
Paul
I agree, At first I was going to reply and then as I continued to read I thought better of the idea, then I finally decided that I would reply.... why, well because I happen to like Larry very much, and I know my friend comes off a bit strong from time to time but I also know that he always thinks about what he says and so I figure it is worth reading, now I am not here to defend him, I am sure that he is more that capable of doing that for himself... I am not much of a purest when it comes to restoring bikes, though I do try to make it at least close, I would probably never build a purple tank six day but if some one whats to... who am I to say they can't... I for one enjoy reading all the posts and I have learned so much, I think it is kind of funny that I know so much more about the bike I ride than what was available when I bought it new... heck, I wanted a service manual and had to wait almost 28 years before I could get one....I have said this before but I am pretty sure that I wouldn't be riding now if it was not for this forum... I probably would have sold the bike off for a couple hundred bucks and that would have been the end of it... late last year I was struggling with what to do with my 76 MC5, should I restore it comepletely or should I sell it, I did neither... I decided to keep it the way it is.... I have been riding and racing it as close to the way that I rode and raced it back "in the day" I decided that this too needed to be preserved. I am sure that many will not understand that but then I did not do it for them but for those who will come later, I happen to believe that we are not just preverving a bike but an era as well.. and the matter of the fact is that alot of the bikes did not stay in stock trim. This last weekend I was at FreedomFest, it is a christian festival that is mostly about music but over the last few years it has taken on a new image... This year we had Ryan Capes and a few other Extreme sports freestyle...motocross type stuff, It was very cool and I got to help with and assit them as they went about doing there thing.... As a result of that I met one of the guys that is sponsored by a KTM shop, I told him about my bikes and he thought it was pretty cool so I brought it down for them to see, I put it on a stand and went about my duties, a couple of hours later a man came up to me and wanted to know about my bike, he was the owner of the KTM shop, he wanted to know if it was completely stock or not... as if that was really all that important.... In a way it is... it represents the way a bike in that era would have been raced, it may not be stock but it is historically correct.... Everything on that bike is exactly the way it would have been raced... right down to the shocks, they are not just historically correct but are in fact the shocks I rode way back when, I have rebuilt them since then but they are correct. This is not always possible and on my regular race bike I do have a set of shocks that more than likely do work better than anything that was available back then, but that is another story altogether... I for one would like to see more bikes that represent the bikes as they were actually riden. I think they play an important role in the preservation of a Marque... Epecially when you realize that change for the sake of improving the brand was and as far as I can see is still a foundational value that made Penton the great sportcycle that it is.....Ok I will get off my soapbox....:D
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
Go PENTON....no matter which flavor you choose! Just dont laugh at my blue fendered 73-125 unless you got the mud to back it up!
Tom B
Larry,
I know that the site has changed, but so have I. I am older and tend to set back a little and enjoy seeing the transition that THE PENTON LIFE is going through. I have had many personalized race bikes and actually the bike I built for myself, after my stay in the hospital, is the one I always wanted in the "the day". It is the white Berkshire 100 on this months Penton calender. Back then I didn't have the time or money to build it so I now own my special bike now.
As far as the restoration side I enjoy the questions of right bolt where and where does this fit type post. It gives us ALL a chance to be a Friend and or make a new Friend for someone who is trying to achieve a goal of having a Penton the way they want. As far as you pointing out the changes and how things are different I think it is health that we are changing and who knows next year at this time it may go back to more racing posts....I don't know what the future holds. But I do know that I have met and continue to meet some of the nicest most helpful people by being a active participate on this site.
So that is where I am going to leave it...we are changing and I have seen this in other area such as antique cars so embrace it and enjoy it because as one of my best friends told me a while back about life..."this isn't no dress rehersal". So with the time I have left I am going to try to embrace the fun of life and if change happens I will try to make the most of it.[8D]
Ron Carbaugh
I'm getting in on this late.
I acquired my '75 GS 250 with race history AND all the original parts like fenders, headlight etc. in a box. The bike had been raced with PP plastics and headlight but (to my horror) the owner had tossed them out, wanting to restore it back to stock.
I've since sourced new PP stuff to restore to "as raced".
Regards
David
'75 KTM GS250
'75 KTM GS400
Larry,I'll try and do that.Being as computer lame as i am it may take a bit to figure out.Who got the Pentaha?just wondering...Thanks, Ric
Crash-would love to see those old pics,if you don't post em' email me.
ric emmal
recently I posted a thread about a Vintage Hare scramble happening up here in Somers Conneticut,(New England) and I'll be a Sum Bee, nobody responded. :(
The Nutmeg Ramblers went out of their way to have a Vintage friendly Hare Scramble, and not 1 "ya I'll be there" from the Penton fellas in the North East.
Well I know there will be some other competent Penton riders there, seeing the Nutmegs Pres is a true blued Penton addict.
Myself, I have a GS 400 just dialed in with new everything except the frames painted orange and it has acerbis bark busters, and I just hope I dont rip the Brand new Penton seat up.
Dont get behind this Penton... It idles at 50 mph in the woods and will knock your roost protectors off too !
2c
Raymond
Down East Pentons
Shouldn't that be the "Greek" factor for anal restore?? [sorry couldn't help it].
Here is my take on it. . .
When I see a pristine stock Penton at a show I enjoy looking at it but in the back of my mind i chuckle a bit as nobody rode a bike stock. Petty fenders, pipes, shocks and other bits were changed out all the time. then (as now) racers are going to use what works best.
I like to stare at my bikes in the garage but I prefer to ride my WR250F now. Remember,I suffered thru that time period and my body really likes the new stuff.My son and I are racing desert now and it is a blast!
What would it have been like if John Penton only rode his NSU around in the late 60,s?
Larry,
It's only going to get worse. Everyone's 5 years older than they were 5 years ago. It only stands to reason that there were more 'racers' 5 years ago than now. There will be fewer racers in 5 years, and even fewer in 10 years, and even fewer in 15 years. In 25 years, even the youngest of us will be OLD and no one will be racing anymore (except Ted Del Solar!), and there aren't any guys that are 25 years old now that will be sighing deep sighs over the Pentons of their youth and wanting to keep the magic going, because they weren't born when Penton quit marketing. Demographics is Destiny.
On the other hand, I agree that too much angst over minute details can get under your skin, if it just goes on and on.
I think maybe something we could all agree on is that - regardless of whether we have beauty bikes or racing bikes - the most important thing is that they are maintained well, so that they will survive and continue to represent a special time in motorcycle history. Nothing's worse than seeing was a once beautiful, capable machine that has been neglected and rusted beyond reclamation.
Finally, I'll say this - To thine own self be true. for me, some of the Penton models are the most beautiful works of motorcycle art I've ever seen. The Steeltanker silhouette, to my eye, is Kim Basinger and Rachel Welsh rolled into one ... simply perfection. No matter what color bikini they wear, that silhouette is still the bomb.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride