Penton Owners Group

have any of you sachs guys seen this thread going on the ahrma discussion board concerning the rules about the 6D engine? probably pretty interesting to a few folks on this site...  chi jer

Actually it kind of senseless because who is going to know the difference between an A,B or D.  I know everone is going to talk about the V support in the fin area and the bolt on intake.  I am here to tell you the D isn't enough advantage to worry about.  AHRMA needs to be checking the 175cc bikes that are being run in the 125 class NOW....  The funny thing is this is possibly being done to penalize one person and all it will do is create a lot of confussion.  I would challenge anyone to tell me the real advantage of a D over a strong running B engine????  Oh, and one other thing, I think the rider has a little bit to do with the actual results of a Sachs engine against some of these other brands of bikes.

  Has anyone brought up the classification of the GS engine and how would they decide who has or doesn't have a GS engine...by reading the removalable ignition side cover?

  I actually think with all the complaints I hear about the poor shifting of a Sachs they should be given a headstart to the first turn.  

  I feel that some of the people on the other brands are just a little touchy about the fact that a good running Sachs Powered Penton in the hands of a good rider is hard to beat.  Well that's my take and I am prepared to defend my position.[8D]

Ron Carbaugh

well said Ron. Now post that on the AHRMA board and show your thick skin.

Hi guys,                                                                            Adam" and Tom" are just good" on great bikes" and theres just a few who can't deal with that in Ahrma!I also think if a bike is setup to run 7" of suspension in the rear prior to 75" a guy should be allowed to race it that way,in the sportsman class,Just because certain ahrma honchos wantB50mx handling bikes strait all across the board doe'snt mean a guy riding better equipment should suffer?I say Run what you brung!Have fun!Ahrma needs to quit justifing there rule to compliment two brands?we all know what two brands im talking about!?????????????????The truth!lol![B)]Pentons were better bikes that were more advanced than others as were a few others makes!too!:)

i agree that its a little too much splitting hairs to rule out the "D" motor. i do not claim to be anything close to knowledgable on the workings of sachs motors, other than knowing that when i tried to ride a couple in the early 70's and that i could not make them shift. but i think that ahrma would have been well advised to consult any one of a few extremely knowedgable people that frequent this website. the insight available here is irreplacable. i'm sure that someone will submit data to return it to the classic vs sportsman class. its amazing to me that the ahrma board saw fit to address a problem that did not seem to exist in an effort to clarify a perceived grey area.     chijer

If the Sachs 125 was better than the YZ and Elsinore then they should run with them in Sportsman class not Classic which is for 71 and older 125's.  I love Pentons but the Sachs motored ones were archaic compared to the 74 Jap bikes and they were not better.  It was old in weight, shifting, and porting.  Some guys like Tom can make them wail but if Tom were on a modified  Elsie he would be farther ahead.  A highly modified D motor is probably not fair in Classic if we are honest in our hearts.  

The suspension argument is an old one but AHRMA did it in Sportsman to even the playing field.  As always AHRMA is virtually the only game in town so if in Rome...  If you like more fun and less rules move to Missouri and race MOVMX and you will see why it is one of the largest State Series in the U.S. and why it is NOT AHRMA affiliated.  Curtis always rules for fun first and rules second.  I at first did not understand this but I eventually got it.  

Ron, There is 175's in the 125 class?  Go figure, that never happened in "The Day" did it?:D

Larry P

Hey Jerry,

I am also amazed that AHRMA is addressing a problem that doesn't even exist.  In an attempt to add some logic to the conversation, I just posted a response on the AHRMA message board.  I'm afraid the timing of this topic within AHRMA might have something to do with the fact that Adam has won Classic and Sportsman 125 Expert on my Penton at Mid-Ohio for the last two years.  I hope that's not the case.  

Kent

Larry,
  Thanks for you input.  I always respect your side because you have been racing for longer than most people have owned motorcycles.  I would disagree with the statement about the highly modified D engine.  I have seen and continue to see $8000.00 plus Elsinores and CZs and where do you put those pups????  One other thing I haven't seen the techs at AHRMA doing is walking around any bikes with magnets to see what the frames are mad of??  I guess the point is that there are many ways to win and I think the two people you mentioned just make it look easy.  Maybe we should take up a collection and build them each a highly modifies Vespa and see where they place.  That Vespa engine puts out some beans....[:p].

Bill,
  I normally would post something like this on the board that has the discussion, but since I am not a member of AHRMA I don't feel like it is my place to make that post.  Don't worry, way before the internet I was very active voice in the AMA Rules.  Sometimes I even gave up some secrets to help make a class more competitive.

  With that said AHRMA works hard to make things fair, but some members just complain more than others....It is not fair for me to complain unless I want to join and be a target to defend myself.

Ron Carbaugh

I agree the 6D is NOT enough of an advantage at all.  Plus the higher state of tune GS and GS Pro on Monarks are allowed, so the D argument is not valid IMO ???  I will work the conventional route and petition this change be struck down as ambigious  since GS and GS Pro Monarks are technically more HP and they are not our front.  The rder is 80+% of the battle as evidenced by Adam, and specifically Tom B beating all the 400s in +40 expert!!

I have been behind some CZ125s and my B runs like hell.  But out of a turn I SWEAR the CZ was a 175, as the CZ pulled waay to hard for a 125 and my bike was tuned pretty darn far, 32mm, pipe, pvl, etc etc   so lets look at that more serious issue??  AHRMA does try hard, and it is still by far the best most positive experience out there.  I am going to work to overturn this bad rule.  In any case I'll keep my sweet Six Days and pumped up B motor and out ride the commie bikes!!!  (Husky too!!)  LOL

Terry Gates
AHRMA Classic 125 racer
Penton 125 Six Days (2)
Penton 175 Jackpiner
Penton 250 Harescambler (wannabe!!)

Kent,
  Please don't show up with a Vespa for Adam to ride next year.  I will be blamed for Vespas being moved to the Sportsmans class.  I do  agree with Terry about trying to get this overturned the traditional way.  I along with others fought hard to get rules changed at AMA in the 70's and 80's and I feel that they listened and did make some changes.  So as we all know AHRMA is doing a Great Job and sometimes rules disrupt our little world, but hey I am already building an A Sachs with a 5 speed.  With the right rider well see how that works out.  Oh, I actually should say Doug Wilford has already built the engine now I am doing my best to pick the correct spark plug[:0].  Let's all have fun and with Terry, Kent and Bill maybe this will all be over before it really goes anywhere.

Ron Carbaugh

Thanks Ron!!  I think we can overturn it.  MAY be too late this year, we'll see.  NExt year for sure. Either way I'll work in becomming more knowledgable on the B thanks to Bill, Kent, Ron, and buy another bike to pump up more Ha Ha!   The POG folks are a great group, and next year I hope to move up to a Hare Scrambler.

We'll fix this bad rule, and then figure out about the 175s from 'other' brands.  I agree   a fast B motor with proper suspension and a good rider cannot be beat.  With 4" that suspension is a big deal.  Love the Penton and mine shft good now.   Maybe raise the compression as Tom B. has suggested and it will hit harder still :) either way I am having the time of my life racig, good friends, and these great bikes!!!  But I'll still target the CZs!![}:)][}:)]

Terry Gates
AHRMA Classic 125 racer
Penton 125 Six Days (2)
Penton 175 Jackpiner
Penton 250 Harescambler (wannabe!!)

If Tiger Woods uses my clubs, he still plays like Tiger (unfortunately, with his clubs I'll still play like me).

 Watching Tom B ride is like watching Secretariat run.  It doesn't matter what he rides, he'll win, and look good doing it.  Anybody bitchin' about his bike is just spewing sour grapes.

There is a lot of cheating that goes on in this vintage stuff, with bore outs and other stuff that makes some 125's scream like 250's.  But if you want to see the biggest cheating in the world, play in a charity golf scramble.  Some of those jerks are so needy and desparate to win  that they'll lie cheat and steal to do it.
        There's always a few cheaters and whiners that can't stay within the spirit of the endeavor.

Actually, it'll be fun watching these crybabies backpedal and spin and blush with frustration when Tom B and Adam win big, anyway.  



Larry Seale
I choose to ride

When I said D I should have said D GS and D GS Pro.  In AHRMA rules for Classic it has always stated that with exceptionally fast Classic bikes that they would be bumped to Sportsman.  The GS and GS Pro models were far faster than previous Sachs bikes but they still shifted poorly.  

Larry P

Also the exotic bikes like the CZ's they are building with Modern rods and such should also be bumped to Sportsman.  With ever changing technology being brought to these old bikes the rules will continually have to be molded as NASCAR does so the playing feild is evened.

Larry P

Those CZ and Husqvarna that I have raced against have huge carbs and are very fast.  
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

If you really wanted to cheat with a Sachs engine, buy a 185cc German Army Sachs engine. The 250cc District 37 Desert number 1 plate was won in 1973 by Mark Ardent riding a DKW. I always wondered how they did it and now that I know of this 185cc engine, it is pretty easy to guess where they got the extra cc's.

I believe (not positive ?) that in '73 - Mark Ardent was also desert racing on a Penton Jackpiner.

This board has changed so much over the last five years. Us poor restorers have to wade through too many posts on racing. This post belongs in the Penton Racing Talk section, so that I can get back to picking my paint color. :D Right LP!

I suggested a dedicated page of restoration info, paint colors, decals, etc. Post the answers to the most asked restoration questions in one place.

Mark Adent carried the number 1 plate in 1974 on a 250 Penton but I don't think he raced a Jackpiner during 1973. I'll dig thru some old Cycle News and see if I can dig up any Jackpiner references.

I just feel the ARHMA touchy feely guys ought to look at the 73-74 Husky's I ride against in the 125 Classic Class with my 1972 Six Day....and also what about the 1973 Jackpiner being ridden in the 250 Classic Class, it is 1972 like technology.

It is an equation of HP and rider skills that win most races...rider skills probably dominate.

That's my 125 cents!

Penton Master,

I think it is a legitimate discussion that could go either place.  The snipe is not much appreciated.  Perhaps you thought it was funny, I didn't.  Racing at least gives a meaningful purpose to all this for me but since you are different and I am honest enough to say it bugs me I will let the detail people take over and make this a boring ass sight.  Have great life guys debating shades of gray.

Larry P

How do they propose to verify which motor is being used?? Are they going to do a complete tear down and measuring of every Sachs motor after every race?? Seems slightly ignorant to me.

Larry, you made your point, lighten up just slightly.

actually I grew living next door to mark Adent. My brother raced with The rams and mark regularly. His DKW was no faster than my penton. He would ride circles around me in the desert and I would do the same to him at Indian Dunes or any MX track. He could read terrain like no one else. His bike was a 125. His father Ed did all the work on it. And to say anything else about it is ignorance.He waited on parts just like the rest of us and Ed kept the bikes running. He just didnt have to pay for the parts or the bikes.
He was a talented desert rider but he wasnt a talented MX rider. The bike was the bike. he was the real deal in the desert. Dont sell that talent short.

Bill cappel

Bill, that may have been true at first for Mark adent.He was racing 250 class on the Deek. More than likely it was a German Army 180cc sachs motor(you can get them on German Ebay!). Tom Ruddy was the wrench for Hercules distributing owned by Ted Lapadakis.The bikes were serviced at the distributors and locked in a conex container. On the Friday night before a race they would pick them up and return them on Monday.Tom Ruddy spent quite a bit of time building the pipe for the brooks and Marks bike.I wish I had that pipe now!
 The reason I know these things is that I talk to Tom Brooks Sr- in fact I have his DKW restored in my garage.

Quotequote: Kent,
Please don't show up with a Vespa for Adam to ride next year. I will be blamed for Vespas being moved to the Sportsmans class.

Hey Ron,

I'm with you man.  I wouldn't want to be the one to tick off the Vespa crowd either!  I was thinking about getting my '78 KTM moped going but I suppose there would be some kind of problem with that too...  

All kidding aside, I have requested the appropriate info from the AHRMA Vintage Motocross Rules & Eligibility Chairman regarding their recent "clarification" of the rules. When (if!) I get that, I will then prepare some documentation and submit it to AHRMA before the October 2nd deadline. At some point I will be seeking endorsements of this document.  That's where I will really need some help from all of you.  Doug, Dane, Paul, Ron, Jerry, Terry, Bill, Victor, etc. I'll be in touch with you guys once I find out what transpired within AHRMA.

Thanks!
Kent

Kent,
  Please send me a email with a phone number or I will send you mine.  After some thought and hearing the "big carburetor" comment from Larry Perkins, which he is right as usual at least in my book, I think this question should be presented to the board.  I will send them a picture of a B cylinder that has been modified so that I can put any size carburetor on I want on it so where do we go from there???  In other words THEY , who ever they are in this case, actually are just stopping bigger carbs being put on Sachs engines unless someone wants to spend $$$$ (MONEY) to have machine work to fit a big carb on a A or B Sachs engine.  Next argument is that if THEY just want to make this a $$$$ (MONEY) contest this is really not in the best interest of what Vintage Racing and really just makes it a contest of a few and not the mass.  The D argument is very weak and if anyone on the Committee wants to call me to get an explaination of the Sachs engines and the difference I would be happy to talk to them.  Although the the REAL DEAL is to talk with Doug Wilford.....Doug does and will always tell it like it is...I know I have been told the way it was and is several times and I still reguard him as the Master of the Sachs engines.

Kent, thanks for taking the lead as I am not a member of AHRMA, but I respect the organization and especially Dick Mann as the Great Person is is and has always been.

OK that is my 2 cents for today.

PS: I do know the hot setup for a Vespa...no kidding.

Ron Carbaugh

Since I'm not involved in AHRMA, I have no idea of what has started this controversy. It has always been my understanding, that "vintage" had to be 1974 and earlier, so what the heck is the problem. If the D engines were not available in 1974, then why would they ever have been allowed. If they were allowed in or before 1974, then what the @#$% is AHRMA doing screwing around with them.

If I'm off base here, would someone please PM me and clarify what is going on?

Ron is absolutely right about the money thing, and if you don't believe that, look into kart racing. There are so many rules in that game, that it costs a small fortune to be competitive, because everybody spends so much money trying to work around the rules.

Basically, the rules that you enact, have to have no loop holes, because if they do, then that's where the money goes.

Dane

Dane's comment about what year the D engine became available got me to thinking, my 1974 ISDT 125cc Penton had the D cylinder on it.  I don't know if the cases were stuffed as I never had a chance to peek inside, but I dought that they were.
    Dane, if you have a picture of your 1974 ISDT 100cc machine, it may show that you also had the D cylinder.  

Paul

dane, what this is about is that there are basically two distinctions of vintage bikes that most 125's fall in. the earlier one is called "classic 125"  huskys cz pentons monarch. very limited japanese machines. the later distinction is call sportsman 125, tm's elsies, yz's were allowed. they are trying to classify the D sachs motor into the later "sportman" class instead of the earlier "classic" class claiming that the D motor was a significant improvement from the ealier b motors. it has obviously caused a stir. some of us involved in ahrma are having a hard time grasping why the rules committee decided to tackle a problem that no one seemed to know existed.      chijer

OK, here's the current status of the Sachs D engine.  Matt Hilgenberg, who is the chairman of the AHRMA Vintage Motocross Rules & Eligibility Committee, was kind enough to call me, Dirk Williams, and Terry Gates today to discuss the eligibility of the Sachs D in Classic 125.  

Basically, Matt said that the rules written years ago were an attempt to accommodate the appropriate Classic era bikes that, of course, existed prior to 1974...such as the Sachs B Penton. Matt and I agreed that I would submit documentation that Sachs B and D engines, except for porting and the bolt on intake manifold, were the same engine. From my conversation with Matt, I believe that he and the other members of the Vintage Motocross Rules & Eligibility Committee are very open to formally allowing the Sachs D in Classic 125, it's just up to us to provide the proper documentation.

So, for now, Dirk will go forward with documentation on his end (Monark, etc.) and I will go forward with documentation from the Penton perspective.  

Doug, you are the man when it comes to the Sachs engines, so your perspective will be very important to our case.  I will contact you in the next week or so.  Actually, if you're going to be at the next POG meeting maybe I should just come up and discuss the issue with you and everyone else and that way we will all be on the same page.

Ron, Thanks for your input.  Actually, carb size is limited to 32mm in Classic 125 so carburetion isn't really a factor.  AHRMA is just under the impression that the D is significantly better than the B.  In my conversation with Matt, he is very open to the concept of the D being allowed in Classic 125.  He would just like us to document our argument for their review.

Dane and Paul,  You're right...there is no problem.  Unfortunately, AHRMA thinks there is so I'll elaborate a little bit on what we're dealing with. The situation here is that Classic 125 is intended to represent the era of machinery that existed prior to the Japanese invasion in 1973-4.  Common examples include the CZ, Husky, Rickman Zundapp, etc.  Currently AHRMA has "clarified" their rules by saying the Sachs D engine is not eligible for Classic 125 and that it must be run in the Sportsman class against the Elsinores, YZ's, TM's, KX's, and Can-Ams.  This decision is based on a set of rules that was written many years ago, with little knowledge of the D engine.  What we are arguing is that the D is not significantly different than the B, and therefore is not significantly better than the B.  In this case, I don't think it really matters to them when the D became available, just that it is not significantly better or more advanced that the B.  Fortunately, they seem very open to this concept if we can provide adequate documentation.

Thanks guys!
Kent

Jerry,

It looks like we both responded at the same time!  Your assessment of the situation is exactly correct.  Thanks again for alerting us to it and for your continued input.  I am cautiously optimistic that we will be able to straighten this out eventually.

Thanks!
Kent

Kent,
  Your statement to me....

Ron, Thanks for your input. Actually, carb size is limited to 32mm in Classic 125 so carburetion isn't really a factor. AHRMA is just under the impression that the D is significantly better than the B. In my conversation with Matt, he is very open to the concept of the D being allowed in Classic 125. He would just like us to document our argument for their review

my answer to you is that carburetor size is a issue to the people that are whinning about the D engine.  Although experts in the field that have a flow bench at their disposal can make a 125 flow better with a 28 or 30mm than most can make a 32mm most racers just bolt on the biggest carb that a class alows.  My 2 cents for today and thaks for taking the lead.

Ron Carbaugh

I like to heed the words of Doug Wilford when he told me "for what small gain the D motor may have in performance you lose in reliability". I think he hit the nail on the head. I cant seem to blow the B motor up.  

Donny's 32 jetting didn't hurt any. After the 1000 mile trip down to Texas it started up the first 1/2 kick. My Yamaha friends were amazed when they saw that.

Why would anyone want to race another brand? :)Go Penton:)
Tom B

Of course the issue is forwarding the D motor specs before a poor rule is Grandfathered in.

My letter to the Rules Committee and the National Office:

Hi guys,

I have a Penton 125cc Sachs engined bike that has a "B" engine in it. However, I spent alot of time and money trying to find a "D" cylinder for it primarily because of the convenience of the bolt on intake manifold when you have to change carbs. I say "have to change" carbs because the Bings that come with it wear out very fast and the new Bing replacemsnt cost is prohibitive, so I have been replacing my Bings with Mikunis. The "D" manifold makes it easier to do.

I told Doug Wilford, the U.S. Sachs engine expert, I was looking for a "D" cylinder last year and he told me not to waste my time, that the "D" engine was not much better in performance than a "B" and in fact, he prefers the "B" engine. Against his wishes, I finally found a "D" cylinder and purchased it at too great a cost!!!

I am hoping that you don't change the current rule as I (and many other people also) understand it and make the "D" engine a "sportsman" class engine. It is an out of date "classic " engine and it is not competitve against the CZs, etc., especially because of the endless neutrals transmission. I ride it because I only ride Pentons unless I have to ride something else!!!

Thank you for taking time to consider this,

Teddy Landers 62D