This is a question and letter that will also go to David Lamberth at AHRMA and it is strictly my opinion.
So who really controls AHRMA racing? AFter this weekend at ISDTRR it is obviously NOT AHRMA and NOT the racers. It is apparently the Promoter that makes the rules and calls the shots. It is apparently at ISDTRR not even the club promoting the race but the head honcho of the club.
This debate is over two issues. The main one is the late impound penalties that were assesed. Now I understand it is hard on the club if everyone tries to Tech and impound on Saturday morning but to penalize some guy that has to work on Friday with a five minute penalty is unfair. In case you don't know starting out with a 5 minute penalty pretty much insures the best you can do is a silver medal. It is not an AHRMA rule and it was never proposed by AHRMA or the board at AHRMA to my knowledge. It was dreamed up by Ron Ribolzi and the Missouri Mudders. I was told several times by several people that they wouldn't impose it if it was up to them but it was Ron's show.
I think it penalizes the working guy that can't get off early Friday and is not fair or in the spirit of FUN. Beyond that in my case there were extra ordinary circumstances that the promoter would not accept. I left in time to get to impound on time but was stopped randomly by the DOT and spent an hour being safety checked. I arrived at Park Hills at 6:14. 14 minutes late after an hour stopped and it was documented with a report that listed stop time and two tickets. My appeal was immediately dismissed and Ron asked me if I was racing a Vintage bike. When I responded yes he said the penalty would not matter because it would probably break anyway. That attitude would really be discouraging if it was my first ISDTRR.
More discouraging was some of the trail used on Saturday with all the rain that had passed through the last few days. There were about 20 bikes that never got through the first special test it was so greasy. I would say at least half of the riders fell in the first special test. Again if this was their first time it would have been a rude awakening instead of FUN.
There are many trails at St. Joe State Park that are sandy and much of this was used but apparently there was no backup wet weather trail plan for the bad non-sandy parts. This could of easily been planned in advance. It would have required some hookup with doubletrack and it would have made it a bit easy but easy trail and letting special tests decide the meet is the spirit of ISDTRR.
Then the Hot Lap MX special test did not happen on Saturday because it had not been laid out yet. Good preperation?
So who runs AHRMA racing with this promoter making rules and making not so good of decisions? I believe that the Mudders have now at least twice shown that they do as they please and don't have a good feel for "Vintage Friendly" and the spirit of FUN that ISDTRR has been and should be. They are too ingrained in making challenges for modern racers.
This is the very reason that AHRMA should oversee some of this to not have the same problems with other promoters in the future. To the best of my knowledge AHRMA had no hand in the planning of this internally. If they did then shame on them too. Ted Landers was apparently in charge of Tech and represented AHRMA there but when I asked him about the penalty he was one of the ones that said he did not like the rule but it was Ribolzi's show. Funny I thought it was an AHRMA National.
So AHRMA who runs the show and will I go to another AHRMA event next season where the promoter changes the rules with their own supplemental rules?
Hats off to ALL the hard workers that are in the Mudders. This is not meant as an attack on you guys. It is just an argument of who runs the show? But if no changes are made and you guys are awarded another ISDTRR I will pass even though it is close to home.
Don't let this keep anyone from Arkansas next year because those guys understand the terms "Vintage Friendly" and FUN!
Larry P
Larry, sorry about your bad luck. Boy, there are a lot of ways a person could go with this, I always envisioned the ISDT (and like wise the ISDTRR) as 90% preparation. The whole thing is always a crapshoot between keeping your bike, body and head in check. One of the things I always try to keep at the top of my list is: if things go all to hell; be prepared to walk away from the whole thing like it never happened. With that thought in mind, I start planning when I drop that check in the mail for the pre-entry. I agree that the "How things work" at these events is a bit fuzzy, but to me that's ISDTing it. The spirit of the event? Jezzzz, I'm no ISDT historian but I look back at all the ISDTs and think of all the "political games and cheating stuff" that was going on back in the day and kind of factor that into the ISDTRR event as another angle of the event. Now, that is sometimes easier said than done, especially if your battling for points at the last event of the season. Believe me during the final motocross/grass (?) track event, the ONLY thing that was in my head was trying to run down & get past that damn Hodaka. Same with the terrain. Man that first 10 miles was tuff. But I looked at it like: Wow! What a challenge of man and machine, cause it's all about saving both to make it to the end of the event, right? To me that's the spirit of the ISDTRR. Of course, that's coming from a guy who didn't lock up his motor or lose his clutch out there. I came into the event half-assed prepared, by my standards (which are not very high) and kept my fingers crossed the whole weekend. I vote for Dick Mann for the quote of the weekend, where at the banquet he proclaimed: "It reminds you of how really crappy these motorcycles were".
Pete Petrick
'01 KTM EXC 520, '74 YZ 250, '86 Honda XR 250, '71 Hodaka 100, '74 SUZUKI TM 400, '73 Penton Jackpiner
AHRMA elections coming up. Let's make a change in officers. Lot of talk going around about change for the better. Remember you have to vote. Very low percentage voting last go around.
VOTE FOR A CHANGE
Bob Brizzee
Waiting for Paragould to annex San Diego
Larry,
David Lamberth sets up the Cross Country event calender by contacting the clubs and setting the dates. The races are run according to AHRMA rules, class definitions, etc. but the laying out of the course and providing the personnel to run the event are the domain of the club running the event. David makes sure that there is someone at the event for signup and tech inspection (lots of time this would be Corky and Patti Root, or James Smith) so that the correct paperwork will get back to AHRMA. AHRMA also requires the club to have proper insurance, ambulance converage, etc. but the club runs the event and usually provides the "referree" for the event to settle conflicts. In the case of the ISDTRR, all the "extra" rules, procedures, etc. required for this unique event have to be approved by the ISDTRR Committee. At the banquet they told us the committee was made up of Dick Mann, John Penton, John Swarzky (sp?), Ron Ribolzi, Jeff DeBell and I think a couple others. These guys approved the "Supplemental Rules" for the weekend that every rider received in the packette when they signed in and they were published on the ISDTRR Missouri Mudders website for the last few months.
Ron Ribolzi was the referree for the event. Your problem wasn't the rules, or AHRMA, it was that Ron wouldn't decide in your favor concerning your situation. I am sure that he was thinking that if I let this guy get away with no penalty, then what do I do about Jeff Smith who also got a 300 point penalty for not impounding at all, or a couple of the ISDT Veterans who didn't impound and kept their bikes in the tent out of the rain all night (I guess they thought their new bikes couldn't take the rain like our 35 year old bikes - the wimps!!!!). This really hurt a couple of the vets in their final standings. For your information, at the ISDT Qualifier Warmups we assess a 120 points penalty for not impounding on time. It is apparent that the ISDTRR comittee REALLY wanted everyone signed in, teched, and impounded by 6:00PM Friday or they wouldn't have assessed such a high penalty.
If you want to recommend changes to the ISDTRR rules, send them to any of the committee members not to Dave Lamberth. I have some additions I would like to see next year and that is what I will be doing. I hope this helps Larry.
Teddy
First of all the ISDTR is a unique event and wouldn't even be a AHRMA event but for Dick Mann. Many of the vets don't want it to be a AHRMA points payer. As for the penalty the rules for the 2 day were clear. Impound on Friday. It isn't fair for the folks that abide by the rule and impound , leaving their bikes in the elements only to have somebody impound a prewarmed up bike on Saturday morning. Many feel they shouldn't even allow Late impound. So it was your choice to impound late. The Grass track wasn't set up because Dick Mann wanted to do it himself. Ron Robolzi didn't want to put Buggsy in the cold rain on Friday and chance him getting ill. I understand that. Remember the ISDTR is not just another AHRMA event. It is a special happening to celebrate the ISDT and it's riders. The club had to use the first 8 miles to get to the good trail. I didn't like it but it had to be used. They had to use it on the return also but there was only 3 miles of bad trail on the return. The next day the trail was perfect. Not a lot the club could do about the weather. The did a pretty good job of keeping the event ridable. It was sad that 20 riders quit where they did. They had been through the bad part and the trail only got better ahead. Many of those who quit rode day 2 anyway. AHRMA is lucky that they are allowed to use the ISDTR as a points payer for the CC series as there are many who would just as well rather it not be.
IMHO,
Dwight
PS: Why in the hell would someone choose a Bultaco Pursang ( or any other low pipe MX bike ) for any AHRMA CC event. I saw several trying to keep the pipe on as the rocks kept trying to knock them off or cave them in.
Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.
No my problem IS with AHRMA as that is the organization that sanctioned this event. Just because the rule was published doesn't make it right. I said that the moment I saw it and my situation was different than just not impounding. I DID NOT CHOOSE to impound late I just had bad luck that delayed me! I wanted to explain my delay but no one would let me impound Friday night. My beef is not that it did not go my way but that it was not fair.
Bad trail can always be routed around it just has to be planned in advance but it is obvious that many think there is no flaw so that nothing needs fixing. Keep that thinking up and you will eventually play by yourself.
Since apparently everyone loves the event more than the OBVIOUS flaws and Ted your event in the spring wants to do the same I will just bitch to AHRMA and then NOT race any ISDT events while everyone thinks that all is hunky-dory. It is not a fair rule and only penalizes those that have to work.
I personally feel that you got pleasure from my penalty, Ted. I felt that Friday evening and have seen the things that slide for those that are tight with AHRMA. I know this will all be denied too as i am just crazy. Whatever! Politics-that is why the ISDT spring event is called Teddy's ISDT Qualifier and why this weekend it was Ron's show. You guys go ahead and do the event the same way and I am sure I won't be missed there is so much more cannon fodder out there. If you run enough of them off you might win one by default.
I continue to wonder why I do this? I am just not real bright sometimes.
Larry P
Penalties for guys keeping their bikes in the tent all night are completely justified.
Penalizing a guy for being 14 minutes late to impound because of a traffic stop is not justified, IMO. Gotta have the ability to make the "exception that makes the rule.' Being stopped by the DOT is not an 'unfair advantage'. Cutting a guy some slack for truly unintentional tardiness is no burden to those that were there on time (14 minutes late? He started out with plenty of time to spare, but got stuck due to actions outside of himself. That's not "poor planning". That's the type of universally soul-killing "precision dictate", reviled by all, that the credit card companies employ when you mail your check 6 days before the due date, and because some postal worker makes a mistake the check gets there the day due instead of two days early, but is processed in the computer an hour after the "cutoff time" of 1pm, so they assess you a $35 late fee and $69 finance charge. Their response is identical ("send your check in earlier - i.e. plan better), and it makes you walk outside and howl at the moon. How much better to have a rider attend and participate, rather than have him skip it because he's thinking "I can't take off work early, and I'm cutting it close on time, so .... ah, the heck with it, I just won't attend."
FYI, the winner of one of the classes did not start on time Sunday morning (he took almost 2 minutes to get his bike going) and received no penalty. Also, a couple of very popular riders entered the impound waaaay before their authorized entry, and were seen to have done it by impound officials and had no penalties administered.
I think the late starting bike should have gotten the penalty, and also the two early impound penetrators - those were mechanical underperformance and willful breaches.
My point is that "intent" MUST play some part in the determination of "what to do about this/that situation". INTENT plays a part in "affairs adjudication" of every civilized society on earth, and should be applied in all civilized pursuits.
Having said that, I love this event, and will continue to support it.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Larry,you better send your letter quick. Dave Lamberth is resigning as of the end of November.
Lew Mayer
Larry,
I am sorry you think that I got pleasure from your situation, I didn't, I want to see MORE Pentons riding not less. In fact, I was hoping that Ron would not penalize you as I totally agree with Larry Seale and feel you should have been cut some slack because of the situation that caused you to be late. That is why I told you that you might not get any penalty because I wasn't sure if anyone had been set up to police the penalties.
I guess whoever they did get to record them missed a few according to Larry Seale. Larry S. should have reported them to Ron and the score keeper and then they would have been applied I am sure. That is why there is a 30 minute protest period after the results are posted. People get a chance to see if there were any errors in the scoring. I believe there were only about 5 guys that found errors and told Brian about them. He was quick to get them straightened out. It is not fair to let people get away with breaking the rules. They didn't let me get away with breaking the red ribbon rule at the MX track and gave me a penalty for hitting it!!! I know they were trying to be fair.
I think people were confused about my role at the event. Ron called me a few months ago and asked if I would do tech for the event. I said OK. However, when I got there, the score keeper, Brian called me and said he wasn't going to be able to make it by noon and asked if I would be willing to handle getting all the changes in the registrations in the computer for him. Stan Beni and Steve Paulk had already spent 5 hours entering all the pre-entries in the computer on Wednesday, but someone needed to be there to add in the post entries, make any changes in classes and answer AHRMA related questions as the riders signed in. I had asked Phil Ketchum to help me in tech and then I asked him if he would be in charge of tech so I could help at sign in. We then asked Harold Hazel, Jeff Spivey and Robert Briggs to help Phil in tech. At the end of all this, it looked like I was in charge since I was running around trying to help where it was needed. But I wasn't in charge. I had nothing to do with the creation of the rules, the policing of the rules, or the running of the event. I was just willing to help where they needed me.
For the ISDT Qualifier Warmups, you only need to impound 1 hour before key time which is at 9:00AM. This is to accomodate the riders who can't get there until late Friday night. You only need to impound by 8:00AM and the penalty is only 120 seconds. I do not believe anyone ever has been given this penalty in the three years we have run the event. If there are any areas of the rules for the qualifier that you, or any rider, think needs improving, I would love to have you send them to me.
Again, I was and am truly sorry that Ron made the decision as he did, but he was the referree and he had his reasons. I am glad you enjoyed the MX on the Mint 400. I gave Tim your phone number as he is interested in buying it.
Teddy
You know, the actual answer to your question "Who realy controls AHRMA racing" is the AHRMA board of trustees, 12 guys elected by the members.
Teddy
I will be leaving for Atlanta on business tomorrow morning at 6:30 so I will not be able to enter in to this discussion any more this week.
Teddy
In reading this thread I realized that maybe I am the class winner who is mentioned as not starting on time on Sunday morning, I fouled a plug as I left the line and I had to change it. If I am the one you are refering to please feel free to confirm it. I have posted the rule below and the penalty. If this changes the outcome of the class then so be it, and may I be the first to offer my congrats to the new class winner.
Paul
D. One minute to start bike and travel under power 65' (10 point penalty)
I agree a penalty for 14 minutes late is a bit inflexible, but us old guys playing as ISDT riders for a day is all about deadlines, execution and finishing, no?
I rode the '02 event put on in MO by the Mudders, and the '04 event at the Zink Ranch. Having to work on Friday?? For us geographically unfortunate, our timekeeping to make the impound deadline started Wednesday morning, and included 2500+ highway miles in an old tow rig...part of the challenge of going for a quasi-imitation-gold medal.
In '04, after calculating every milepost along the way for 2+ days, our truck burned a bearing at 11am Friday, about 150 miles from the Zink Ranch destination. We doused the smoking and squealing steel with water, and limped on to the nearest burg, cell-phoning ahead to source a mechanic and parts. With a lot of scrambling and luck, we got the repair done in record time while we did last-minute hurried prep on the bikes back in the trailer, then drove like crazy to get back on our minute to make it to impound with 20 minutes to spare before deadline.
We then found out, to our disappointment, that the club there was NOT enforcing ANY penalty for late impound and guys were rolling in late, casually prepping for the next day's challenge. Oh well, at least WE knew we won our medals fair and square. I personally think the clubs ought to check headlights and taillights before and after the 2 days too, just to preserve a dozen or so points for those riders going the extra step to really play by old-school ISDT rules...
Jon McLean
Lake Grove, OR
Paul,
It was definitely NOT you to whom I was referring.
By the way, it was a pleasure to visit with you, and meet your son. Thanks for the tips on the Jackpiner suspension!!!!! I've made notes today and have starting looking around.
It was a pleasure to watch you ride.
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
right now its all up in the air about who is in control at ahrma. the executive director has not been able to be reached for days. resignations are happening fast and furious, lawsuits are pending and some are saying that they may file for bankruptcy.and they have now shut down the ahrma message/chat board. things are heating up. i certainly hope that things can settle down. despite some shortcomings that are being felt right now,they really are the only game in town for vintage competition. i would hate to see ahmra disappear. and larry, i have learned a long time ago that there can not be a set of rules to deal with every set of circumstances.and if i understand it right,it was unfortunate what happened to you. a little sympathy of the situation would have gone a long way.
chicago jerry
I might as well jump on the bandwagon about AHRMA. They want you to join and then they call you a liar. You don't touch a motorcycle for 30 years, you come back to ride an event, sign up as a novice because you don't want to claim that you are a skilled rider and the AHRMA moves you up a class. I wanted the yellow tape on the helmet because I really did not know what was going on. If I was a sandbagger I should have been called on it. Looking at the skill level of some of the names that were in the post vintage open intermediate class I did not belong within miles them. It was not the mudders fault and Teddy passed out forms that you could apply for to be classed down after the event was over. I would be embarrased to claim that I was a better rider than I am in the presence of the great riders at the ISDTRR..I would be more embarrased to be a sandbagger..next year I will be back but I am going to bypass the BULL and enter as a expert..That way when people look at the list they will go "this guy must be some kind of rider to be competing with these guys".
Thank you mudders scorekeepers for explaining things to me and putting on a great event.
Larry: heal the shoulder up and thanks for selling me a wonderful Penton. It was my first time and I sampled the dirt many times with my face. I do want to thank the other riders that did not use the Rokon for traction
Joe Murphy
ps. If I would have been smart I would have impounded my Penton and had a medal
I know the person who took the biggest hit from this rule.
Due to job requirements, leaving before mid-morning from Dallas was the only option.
He rode the entire weekend with no other penalty points other than his 300 point penalty for getting in at 7:00 PM Friday evening.
Without the 300 point penalty he would have won his class by 14 points, but settled for a Silver.
After hearing of other infractions such as entering impound early, which is a concious decision to not abide by the rules, and having event officials look the other way, I'm deeply saddened.
He also had to leave early on Sunday due to job requirements on Monday and was not able to collect his medal. I told him I would collect it for him and bring it home. He replied that it really didn't matter much anymore.
In my mind, he won his class.
Tony
.........perhaps the real answer is not obvious,the "unofficial" AHRMA board has been shut down due to threats of an attorney from Brooklyn...........................AHRMA needs to be closed down and "reorganized" and renamed for many reasons sighted prior to this post as well as the reason above...............
i am an avid ahrma racer and can certainly see the need for some changes in the way they do business. the rule concerning automatic placement into the intermediate class was a bad change to the previous rule. it has been in effect for a couple of years now and i still strongly disagree with it. (if you have never raced any type of bike before you are still classified an intermediate unless proven otherwise, and the evaluation process is murky at best) i think some changes are overdue. unfortunately, with their discussion board shutting down the ability to have an open forum to discuss issues has disappeared. there was a lot of negativism and name-calling on that board but it was still a valuable spot for info on what was happening with vintage bike competition. the pending lawsuit has a lot of people wondering what will happen with the organization. i for one want to see it continue minus some of the egos and vintage snobbery that gets in the way of good decision making. may it get reorganized?yes. especially if they are forced into bankruptcy. concerning the pending litigation,as with many other lessons in life, i have learned that there are almost always two sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in between. whats important is to be able to find the correct path through the smoke and mirrors and move forward to do the right thing. and yes, i am running for trustee of ahrma to try to affect some changes. hopefully there will still be an organization to be trustee of, at least in some form, so that we can still race these wonderful old machines. chicago jerry
PS i'm glad that THIS discussion board is as friendly and helpful as it is. its always a pleasure to visit it.:)
I don't want to stir the pot any more than it already is, but wanted to let everyone know that your thoughts do get read by at least a couple of the steering committee guys. I am the new guy on the committee this year and haven't had anything to do with the supplemental rules and enforcement (or lack of) thereof, but I do know that the committee prior to this year has had plenty of discussion prior to implementing anything at all.
I'll make a couple of observations and shut up....
1. I do think Larry has a legitimate issue regarding his late impound penalty. Larry often shoots from the hip, but he's usually pretty close to dead on target, and I think in this case he's in the bullseye.
2.Having said that, here's the flip side...
A. The techies were cold, wet and weary, and asking them to hang around on the off chance that someone might straggle in is asking an aweful lot from a group who graciously volunteered to do something no one else wanted to do.
B. How do you prevent 50 riders showing up for tech on Saturday morning with 50 different excuses? I couldn't get off work. The car wouldn't start. I took a wrong turn. The three extra bean burritos I had at Taco Bell gave me the squirts and I had to stop at every rest area between here and Albuquerque. Where do you draw the line?
C. We all knew that tech ran from noon to 6PM on Friday and the late impound penalty was clearly stated. Some riders chose not to impound on time and took the associated penalty...former world MX champion Jeff Smith was one of them, and he didn't gripe. He probably also won his class, although I haven't seen the scores!
3. Having said that, there is (as Teddy Landers has already pointed out) a protest period for anyone to bring up real or perceived inequities in the scoring. I don't think this is any different than at any other enduro, trials or motocross that any of us have been to in the past 3 or 4 decades. We all know the rules...or should...and if we have a problem with something, use the rules to bring it to the attention of those in charge.
Leroy Winters and Dick Mann did not intend for this weekend to be too serious. It is a reunion first. It is to celebrate the original ISDT, the vintage machinery associated with the ISDT, and the heroes, American and foreign, who rode "the Big Show" back when men were men and bikes were underpowered, undersuspended and predictably unreliable. The AHRMA involvement has been a tremendous boost to the event, however at times it seems it's become too serious. My advice is to concentrate more on having a good time and concentrate less on how many points you do or don't have...but that's just me who isn't trying to win anything any more.
I realize that enforcement of rules is spotty at best, but do we really want to make this into an event that is run by rules instead of good times? Do you want to have scads of course marshalls out there enforcing the slightest infringement and do you want to have to post a $500 or $1000 bond before you protest the jury? I know I don't.
I'm not a Six Day vet and I'm not actively chasing any AHRMA championships. I'm just out to have a good time and see some of my heroes, however I will endeavor to carefully represent the full range of thoughts expressed here to the rest of the steering committee members when the opportunity presents itself. In the meantime, if you have a gripe, know you can protest it!
Thanks for listening.
Jeff DeBell
Jeff DeBell
Hi John M,
Where one finds the perfect balance between 'good judgement' and 'consistent rule application' is certainly a mystery. But for any nostalgic or historic celebration event, being a stickler on none "in-the-heat-of-competition" rules seems too extreme. When I was in school (the actual ISDT) being late to class was legitimate cause for some kind of discipline, but at my 30 year high school reunion, being disciplined for being 10 minutes late would be ludicrous.
I know there's always a circumstance that can't be anticipated and/or accomodated - that's just life on this planet. There's nothing wrong with enforcing rules to the letter, but there's nothing wrong with a small sprinkling of judgement and compassion, either. It's always a judgement call. I just like to see the event be as 'inclusive as possible' - 160 riders participating at different levels of competence and tolerance is better in my mind than 35 riders of extreme competence and no tolerance. There are plenty of 'real' events for that all out pursuit of excellence, for those so gifted and motivated.
I guess I'm concerned that if the event trended to being too serious, considering that everyone had to see my spectacular crash 200 yards from the starting line Saturday, I'd be the first one voted off the island, and then I'd have to stay home and do yardwork!
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
OK, some research has brought new light on to this topic.
http://www.ahrma.org/previews/isdt_reunion.htm
Note that the late impound penalty is listed as 10 points.
Who ever "won" the PV 200 Intermediate class actually came in second by 4 points according to this AHRMA link.
Does anyone know when the posted rules were changed?
As for myself, the ISDTRR is not about what medal I get since I show up as a sure lock for Bronze anyway. It does, however, mean other things to other people.
On another less than humerous note, one of the medals awarded to the Side Car guys was from 2002..........
Tony
There is alot of difference in where you sit at the start between a 10 second penalty and a 5 minute penalty.:(
Larry P
The 10 second penalty is a misprint. Why would anyone impound if there was only a 10 point penalty ? Late start penalty is 10 points. It used to be 60 points.
Dwight
Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.
No Dwight, AHRMA has said 10 seconds penalty as the rule. Just because promoters do it different doesn't make the rule a misprint. It just makes the promoters look like it is- that they are doing what they wish instead of following the rules. Nothing new just still not right. Even at the 60 second penalty it is at least not medal changing where the 5 minute penalty is medal changing.
Main point remains that if the event tries to operate under hard ass rules and a tough course riders will eventually be lost and if AHRMA doesn't run or at least supervise it's own show it will not survive intact long term. Personally I can ride whatever you throw at me to a certain extent and so can you. The average guy coming to ISDTRR that has invested a ton to restore his one or two bikes-what can he do and what will run him off? Are we building challenges or FUN? I vote for Fun! Paul Danik told me he had fun that first day. I told him if that was so he doesn't get to ride enough. He agreed that was probably true.
It should be about fun and fairness. That is what will draw more to the event.
Larry P
4 time Amatuer National Motorcycle Champion
World BMX Champion
National BMX Champion
1994 USA Downhill Mountainbike Team Member
Quotequote:Originally posted by Tony Price
OK, some research has brought new light on to this topic.
http://www.ahrma.org/previews/isdt_reunion.htm
Note that the late impound penalty is listed as 10 points.
Who ever "won" the PV 200 Intermediate class actually came in second by 4 points according to this AHRMA link.
Does anyone know when the posted rules were changed?
As for myself, the ISDTRR is not about what medal I get since I show up as a sure lock for Bronze anyway. It does, however, mean other things to other people.
On another less than humerous note, one of the medals awarded to the Side Car guys was from 2002..........
Tony
I just cleaned out my van and found a sheet with the rules for the event on it and it stated a 300 point (5min) penalty for late impound. Maybe 5 minutes is too much of a penalty but certainly a 10 point penalty is not enough. I suggest submiting a rule change to the ISDT steering commitee.
Dwight
Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.
I'm kind of disappointed to hear there is so much politics vintage racing. It should be about fun, rules are rules but I also understand about traveling great distances.
I'm kind of baffled why it is so serious, it's just a bunch of old guys riding junk. I also see a lot of nastiness in today's racing,
when I raced in the early 70's you used to stop and help the guy up the up hill and he would do the same for you.
I think the vintage world could learn from Australia, you show up and ride, no points, no BS, just having fun. Too many rules will kill the sport.
Amen!
Larry P
Thanks Tom (Brokenspoke). My suggestion is to have a fun run for the Reunion and a table to buy a medal at the end of the event. I think everyone should know which medal they qualify to buy. I'll order mine now..."Give me one of those Clear medals please".
I think we should use this last Reunion Ride to learn a lesson and try to have fun at this event or it could be THE LAST EVENT for some people due to all the problems.
I have been quiet about this subject till now since I can't ride anymore, but this event should be a little more on the enjoyable side and used to honor the past ISDT riders that are either no longer with us and the ones that are still with us. It was so wonderful to see the past Champions like Mr. Penton, Jack, Tom McDermett and Dane and the ones still riding like Paul Danik and Jeff Fredette. That's it.[^]
Ron Carbaugh
Kerrville, Texas
I too have been quiet about this....just reading with interest. But just I have to add my two cents.
I side with Ron....I take the Reunion Rides to be sorta' like "fantasy baseball camp"....where you pay a fee and "become" a big leager for the weekend...You rub shoulders with your heros....share the moment....fulfill your childhood dreams of going to the "show"....why spoil it with politics?...for one weekend out of the year, lets just be kids again with dreams.
Steve Minor
Wilmington, NC
I like that idea, and I fit into that catagory perfectly. For the entire weekend, I was back in my late teenage years when I bought my 74 250 HS and rode the trails near my home in Central Eastern Illinois. A lot of the RR resembled these trails, with the exception of the deep mud. When it rained like that, I generally avoided the bad portions of the woods that a couple of my friends and I rode in.
No bad weather or poorly picked trail sections will stop me from continuing to come to these and even more similar events as the next year approaches. I have my hands full in my shop for now, but look for me after the first of the year at as many similar events as I can manage! I think that New Blain should be better for bringing one of my older Pentons to ride instead of the MX-6. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 250'S
I think the vast majority of riders had a great time with little complaints except for the mud but the MO riders can't help the weather much. Something like this pops up every year then blows over, it always does and we have another great ride. All this is said with respect to all opionions on this thread so far, no slams intended for anyone. Just my two for some perspective.
Keith
Don't be so "vanilla" Keith, tell us how you really feel. Good to see you again.
Dane
Jeff DeBell spoke the truth when he said those who were doing technical inspections were cold and wet. All I could think about was getting off my feet and having someone wait on me and afterwards have a drink and relax with a couple of my friends, both newcomers to this event.
It speaks volumes about their tenacity and riding ability when I point out one of these riders DNF'd on Day1 aboard his pristine Hodaka and another who made friends with practically every chase rider the Missouri Mudders enlisted - he still didn't hour out on Day1.
Both riders continued on Day2 with much enthusiasm with the Hodaka rider aboard a borrowed Husky 250 and the Penton rider still enjoying every minute. Both finished Day2 with the Penton rider glad to have finished with a Bronze medal he will undoubtably remember for the rest of his life. Both riders are eager to return to the ISDTRR in 2007. Fortunately, neither met the New Blaine, AR Fire Chief, Duane Milsap, or else they would have figured they were going to be exta's in the remake of "Deliverance".:D
Phil
Yearly problems that seem to disappear, the tech guys being cold, and people being tenacious certainly makes an unfair rule and poor trail choice in parts due to weather go completely away. Not! At least all those things make the event more fun. Not! Those things surely nullify the original gripe. Not!
Larry P
Like I stated before, this is all new to me, and since I was riding a slightly newer bike with more ground clearance and longer travel suspension, there was a definite advantage the Vintage guys didn't get. My 78 MX-6 250 KTM probably saved my #$% more than once and I couldn't have done it on my 74 250 HS Penton. I would have been just beat to death by the conditions. Whether it be Mother Nature, or just poor planing, it doesn't really matter now. What is done is done, and I hope others learn from the hosts mistakes and future events, where ever they are held, are more Vintage friendly. That said, I think that if I was able to still smile about the whole experience, the next events that I enter will be an incredibly fun time that I can not wait for! Phil & company, Thanks for urging me to attend! Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 250'S
Thanks Dane, I think. :D Hey that's as decriptive as I get! LOL. I got my learn'in in Arkansas you know. Kyle and I had a good time, bikes worked great, Kyle had flat on day one, fixed it rode day two. I think Kyle might agree with John P. that the 250cc might be the best all around cc for a trail bike, he loves his. I think that was a quote from Mr. Penton. It was good to see you as always.
Keith Taylor