I was talking with a gentlemen tonight who is quite knowledgable about the early steel tank Pentons and he informed me that the early machines had their serial number stamped into their swingarm as well as the steering head. Have any of you ever seen this, I found it on one early bike and it is located on the right side of the swingarm just infront of the bushing area. It is just the number itself without any V. I also noticed while looking at the swingarm that this Sachs engine is put together with phillips head case screws instead of the single slotted screws. Anyone else ever seen this and if so on what serial number machine? This information will be of help with the Steel Tank Penton book that the POG is working on.
Thanks
Paul
Paul, Never heard of the dual S/N but I have seen one or two Sachs engines with phillips head screws. Thought it was from the previous owner, so I replaced them with cheeseheads. I have had many Steel Tankers from #142 up with the long cast airboxes, screw off caps, covered shocks, but no dual SN's? I did however have a NOS "70" swingarm that was welded backwards like the one used on the Puch Penton, thought it was a mistake so I put it back to normal and used it on a "70" restoration. I have also seen NOS Steel Tank frames, in the paper wrappings, with no SN's on them.
Kip,
All of the frames that were used as inventory by Penton and KTM that I have seen did not have serial numbers. The serial numbers were stamped into the frames as they went onto the production line so the "instock and parts frames" never were stamped. I was told that when a dealer sent in a frame for warrenty the same serial number was then stamped into the replacement frame before it was shipped out, maybe Uncle Doug can shed some light on this??
I was surprised at the phillips heads screws, must have been used only on the early engines. I was told that the first 200 had the long airbox, covered shocks, ect. so your information seems to confirm that. How about the handle bars, have you seen many bolt on crossbars? Have you ever seen a Sachs cylinder with holes drilled down throught the fins? This cylinder has about 12 rows of holes evenly spaced apart drilled down through the fines, it sure looks like a factory job, the little hole for the oil injection has a bolt in it, most all of the others I have seen are cast shut.
I was told that only the real early machines has the dual serial numbers, below #50 possibly.
Paul
PS If you send a set of those green covered shocks this way I will send you some martian soil and mabe a few greenbacks:D
Paul
I think I still have a few of the early cast cylinders with the bolt in it at the intake. Have never seen a "swiss cheese" cylinder, however. Also have never seen a bolt on cross brace on the ST bikes other than in a brochure. Man, if I had some of the "68" shocks, they would be yours for sure. I was really lucky to get the ones I had. Surley, they had to be used on something else but I have searched and searched and come up with nothing! Some small bore Italian machine had to use them I'll guess?
Paul,
I went out and and looked at my 68 steeltanker V144 and cannot find a number stamped into the swingarm anywhere. Also, my bike has the original handlebars and they do not have a bolt on crossbar. The bars are drilled for a roll pin which is used to center the bars in the upper triple clamp. Wish I could find some of those shocks too. One of mine is tweaked at the lower bushing loop and I'm afraid to try and straighten it for fear of breaking the mount completely off. Hope you can find some.
Dave McCullough
Dave and Kip,
I just got off the phone with Richard Sanders, he is the gentleman who informed me last night about the swingarm numbers. He feels that the first 100 bikes were stamped on the swingarm from what he has observed, but we need to keep checking for the numbers on the early bikes to confirm this. The numbers are not stamped as deep as the steering head numbers, and the question came up tonight as to why KTM stamped the swingarms. The best answer we can figure is that when KTM first started building the frames their equipment was not all that great and they may not have been able to hold a tight tolerance from frame to frame so they measured the frame opening and made the swingams to match and stamped the swingarms as they made them with the frame number that they were built for. Richard also said that the early bikes were really hard on swingarms and that a good number were replaced with later ones that were not stamped, so if you find a stamped one it is the original from the factory.
The numbers on my swingarm are just infront of the right bushing area, you really have to look as they are not stamped very deep.
Another item is the choke handle, this one is a blonde color, not black as the later ones, I looked at a lot of pictures of the proto model and several other early bikes and they look to be the lighter color as well, not black. Have you ever run into this?
Paul
Paul
I too have ran into the roll pin in the bars as mentioned by Dave. I have probably dissassembled 6 or so "68" original ST's and never seen a # on the swingarm. There are some low number bikes still out there hiding so you may wish for the owners to check. I've had a ton of the NOS choke levers, some with early PN's and nothing light colored, all black. Dave, break the eye off the shock body to make it correct and weld it back correctly, I have done that a bunch!
Paul,
Went out with a magnifing glass and doubled checked the swingarm this afternoon and can't see any numbers stamped into it. My bike does have a blonde colored choke lever on it though. Kip, I haven't restored my bike and am trying to keep it as original as I can. Might do a full restore it at some point in the future and will do as you suggested with the rear shock to repair it at that time. Thanks !!
Dave McCullough
Dave ,
Thanks for checking for the serial number. It is interesting that you have the blonde choke lever, always something new to learn about these bikes.
I ran into another interesting item, Al Born always said that the real early bikes did not have fork stops, just the steering dampener. Apparently the steering dampener didn't stop the turning of the forks as it should have and the forks would dent the tank in full lock position, like just before a really big crash[8D] He said that fork stops were added to the bikes to solve that situation. I was wiping the bottom of my tank to clean it and I felt some roughness, upon further inspection there is some silvery gray paint under both sides of the tank. I did some more looking and what happened is that when the bike hit Amherst, apparently they pulled the bike from the crate, welded on the fork stops without taking the tank off, and then hit the burned area with some spray paint, hence the overspray under the tank. Richard told me the other night that Ted Penton put those fork stops on as far as he could remember.
Paul
Paul,
That is some interesting info about the stops being welded on in Amherst instead of the KTM factory. My bike has both the stops and a tab on the frame to attach the steering dampener. This kind of stuff will make some very good reading in the ST book.
Dave McC
A few years ago I sold a steel tanker 125 that was a 90's serial number to a guy in Italy. The bike originally came from stuff that belonged to J.R. Horne. I had to take it apart to ship it to him and I remember it had the serial number on the swingarm. I really did not think about it till I read this post. Of course I don't tend to think as detailed as most of you guys do in comparing these bikes. I just go, "Oh, it's a steel tanker" and not so much if it is a certain way. I should probably pay more attention to details from time to time. Anyway there was at least one more this way.
Larry P
Dave and others,
This is why we really need everyone who ownes a Steel Tank Penton to fill out the Steel Tank Penton questionnaire. We need every bit of information that we can get to learn as much as possible about these very interesting bikes. When all of this fixing and changing was taking place, John Penton and the others who were riding and improving these bikes were always looking forward and they were two steps ahead of what was being seen and ridden at that time. Today, the POG is like CSI Amherst, we are looking for clues to help put together this amazing story for others who come after us to be able to learn from.
John Penton has done so much for all of us, lets all show him how much we appreciate what he did by taking some time to provide a few more clues for this exciting book. If you know a guy who has a Steel Tanker, download a questionnaire and go pay him a visit.
Sorry to ramble, but the Steel Tank Penton era is a very important piece of the Penton history and it would be great to get it right, the information that you provide may just be the piece of the puzzel that is needed. Even the information from a bare frame is very important. Just think for a minute how much of the motorcycle world, and our lives, would be different today if the Steel Tank Penton had failed, but John Penton did not let that happen.
Paul
Paul I remember when restoring Al Born's #3 that it didn't have the stops on it. It did have the original Ceriani damper unit but it was bent up so bad, I had a heck of a time figuring it out to place it back on the machine. Once I did get everything pounded out straight again, it was mounted and worked as advertised. It wouldn't take the beating that the welded on stops would take but it worked to keep the forks out of the tank. You can buy NOS parts for the dampers at Domi and also NOS Ducati screw off gas caps for the 68's there also, so this may help getting some of the bikes back to normal. Don't forget the unique fork stem nut that allowed the spring clip to lock in on the 68's damper unit.
Here's a collection of images taken of the Penton talked about in this message.
Bill
(http://www.pentonusa.org/forum_images/misc/2007_0105_Misc_0005.jpg) (http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/)
(http://www.pentonusa.org/forum_images/misc/2007_0105_Misc_0083.jpg) (http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/)
(http://www.pentonusa.org/forum_images/misc/2007_0105_Misc_0011.jpg) (http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/)
(http://www.pentonusa.org/forum_images/misc/2007_0105_Misc_0057.jpg) (http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/)
(http://www.pentonusa.org/forum_images/misc/2007_0105_Misc_0062.jpg) (http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/)
(http://www.pentonusa.org/forum_images/misc/2007_0105_Misc_0073.jpg) (http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/)
(http://www.pentonusa.org/forum_images/misc/2007_0105_Misc_0075.jpg) (http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/)
I am curious to know if anyone has ever seen a Sachs cylinder drilled the way the one in the bottom photo shows? Or if anyone has any idea as to why it would be drilled.
The third photo shows where the second serial number is located on the swingarm, it is a tad tough to see in the picture as it is not stamped as deep as the V number on the steering head and the paint is chipped in that area.
The shocks on the bike were borrowed from a Jawa 90 MX bike, if someone has an original shock and could post a couple of good pictures of it maybe we can find a suitable match. I have had a number of guys send emails with different shocks pictured to select from, be we need a close up of an origanl to compare to.
Thanks
Paul
Paul I would say the holes were drilled to reduce fin rattle for sound dampning .. they would feed a rubber tube thru them to dappen the vibration .... Was this bike ever a Six day bike ????... bt
Brian Taylor
Kip, Could you E-mail the part number of the Ducati gas cap or what Ducati bike used the cap? I get some parts from Domi Racer so problem getting one. Dave
[email protected]
I don't have a P/N, only ID'd by picking it up form the shelf. Not sure if it was for a Monza? or not. Johnathan may be of help at Domi.
Paul,
I have a pair of 68 shocks I just rebuilt. I will bring them along to the York meet to measure & photograph only. They are not for sale.
Lee Buffenmyer
Lee,
Sounds great, I look forward to seeing you at York.
Thanks
Paul
York's getting closer,Paul.
Lew Mayer
Brain,
Actually this bike has very little time on it from what we can tell. It appears to have the original tires with the nubs still on them, the paint isn't wore off the tank, the fenders are original with hardly a scratch, the frame bottom isn't scratched, the chain block has very little wear. Everything that we can think of to see how much it was used indicates a very low time bike. We actually rolled it into the KTM boardroom last Thursday and all of the assembled experts really gave it a good going over.
It was neat to take this machine back home to Amherst after it was gone for almost 39 years. It got me to thinking that maybe we could to have a POG event where we see how many Pentons we can return to their roots, " Take'm Back To Amherst Day ". We could parade the bikes down past JP's place and have a line up according to vin #s, maybe even visit the places where the Penton organization operated out of in their day. Just a thought.....
Lew,
If we are going to have some ice and snow it will be that weekend, it never fails. Old Alan won't commit to going till he sees the weather for the weekend, he doesn't seem to enjoy rolling over those cental Pennsylvania mountains in an ice storm. That picture of Carl Cranke on the homepage just might look like a guy running his bike around the fairgrounds parking lot if tradition holds true.
Paul
I don't blame Al a bit. I won't know if Glenn and I will make the Penton Day meeting until that Friday depending on the weather.:)
Lew Mayer
P/N 02-011783503, Ducati 450 R/T, "68" Gas Cap NOS available from Domi Racer! CIAO $27.78
Paul,
I own the engine that came out of V001 when it was found by Norm Miller. I got the engine out and it doesn't have Phillips Head screws as your does, but it doesn't surprise me as Norm said John's engines were always being rebuilt and checked for the next big Enduro. To date I haven't found any serial numbers on two of the early swing arms (less than V100)that I have, but one of them (V050) was powdercoated. I will keep checking.
Ron Carbaugh
Thanks Ron,
Maybe we will never know the answers, but the fun is in the digging. The mag cover and clutch cover screws are the normal slotted ones, its only the main case screws that are phillips head. Doug mentioned that someone at the Penton Honda shop had checked to see if the Honda phillips head screws would fit the Sachs engine cases at one time, maybe this is the engine that they put the Honda screws in. It appears that they possibly had this bike out of the crate to weld the forks stops on so maybe they did a bit of experimenting.
The swingarm numbers are not stamped near as deep as the main V number so it is harder to see, it just must have been used as a way to match the swingarm to the frame that it was made to fit.
Keep digging:D
Paul
Paul,
Yes I think in early production, even at Honda, companies are careful to try and get things as good as they can so that the first bikes out make a good showing. I agree this is the fun part of looking at the early pentons.
Ron Carbaugh
Ron,
Just read your message. Sounds like you might have a few early steel tankers. Maybe you could fill out a questionnaire or two for me???
http://www.pentonusa.org/steeltank/steeltank1.asp
Thanks,
Bill
Bill,
I sold all of my early number steeltankers before I went in the hospital in 2002. You have surveys on all the ones I owned. I have some different parts still of those bikes. I have done all my bikes and help a few others get their surveys done. Thanks for asking.
Ron Carbaugh
Paul and all---On the shock subject, we could have Bill Smith take some pictures of my #003 Saturday at the museum, as it has the correct rear shocks on it Al
Al,
There is a good picture of the correct early shocks in the Steel Tank Project section of this website, in the images section, image 35B is a great shot of the shocks. Click on the small picture to have it enlarge. I don't want Bill to know, but I hadn't seen this shot before [:I] Lee brought his shock to York and we did take some measurements and pictures of it. Surely these shocks were used on other machines, I have a set coming from a buy on ebay that may be close, I hope.
Paul