the latest is that ahrma is coming down on any of the regional coordinators that have been running a youth race in conjunction with their regional races. at least one region has already jumped ship from ahrma to go it alone and i expect that more will join them. it does not bode well for the nat'l organization if there is significant discension in the ranks. this doesn't affect all of us on this website but it affects many of us that race these events.
lets race! and let the politics be da**ed! and let some of our kids race too!
chi jer
Jerry, good to hear your feelings on kids races, although I know that's a sticky point with liability and insurance with AHRMA. We have a 15+ year non-AHRMA VMX club following up here in PacNW with a 7-month series, that has included a <12yr old XR75 class all along. Often have 300+ entries, very popular and well attended. There used to be 4-5 AHRMA events a year in our area, some with both Vint and PV/Evo, but attendance dropped and a few promoters discontinued. I believe we're down to 1 national MX in WA and a couple of regional VMX's competing with a monthly non-AHRMA races. Very, very few from these states have time/money it takes to drive to NV or CA (where most of the "AHRMA NW Region" events are held--go figure)
Some of the guys active in the non-AHRMA racing here tried for the past two years to coordinate together with AHRMA in order to reinvigorate AHRMA events up this way, but all fell apart finally around the issues of having a kid's class and having same-day Vintage and Evo events. Some of these non-AHRMA events have had full-gates of XR75 entries, and bringing your son/daughter along on race day helps earn a hall pass from mom--it's also the family thing to do. Often Dads ride vintage and older sons ride PV/Evo, so same day events help the numbers too.
So now we basically have a full-year calendar of non-AHRMA events to choose from, which are getting plenty of attendance, minimal rules and regs, and everyone gets along great. With a no-hassle, low cost and well-run event on the calendar every month of the year, many of the guys I talk to are wondering whether they should bother renewing their AHRMA license this year. It's a shame. Sometimes though the simplest formulas work the best.
Jon McLean
Lake Grove, OR
.......www.flvmx.com...........fun!!!..............
Jerry and Jon, well said. The bottom line is AHRMA is sinking their own ship. I understand some folks not wanting kids at the races for insurance, more classes and longer days, wanting to keep vintage racing "pure", etc, but the bottom line is that many of us have kids that would add extra revenue and, probably the most important reason, educate the younger generation about what really cool old bikes we have. Just like our "Penton Future Project", without seeding and fertilizing for the future the tree won't grow!
What has ARHMA done for me lately?
Echo's, in the the post, is a call to them, to give a chance for our
"sons".
There is something, of a relationship between a father, and his son.....
Take them fishin...
The motorcycles, will come later..............
Best on a "Penton Campfire".......it burns deep
Thanks,
Tom Brosius
Its a real shame. But come on, every non vintage race in this country has kids classes. Why is it that AHRMA has this "kids" insurance issue and not everyone else? Are they making it up? Do they have bad legal advise (well I guess we know that answer), or do they know something the AMA and everyone else doesn't? After the bankruptcy thing and now this I think we need a new vintage org.
Curtis Harper's Missouri Vintage MX circuit (//www.movmx.com) is one of those that parted with AHRMA several years ago due to the "no kids rule." Curtis has his hands full trying to accomodate the growing number of folks out there wanting to do some vintage racing AND have their kids race, too. He runs several kids "support classes" and they don't need to be vintage, but it's getting the next crop of vintage nuts hooked. This year a CRF70, next year a Super Rat or (better yet!) a Six Day. It works! AHRMA needs to take note.
Jeff DeBell
Hey Boys
CJ here- I tend to live in a cave with my 50 gallon drum of Tasters Choice- partly why I don't post often enough here-
so all of a sudden to be aware of coordinators/riders/Americans who are fed up as we were with the heavy hand is amazing. Our issue wasn't kids, it was V&PV, but it went down the same way- with some arguing, some maneuvering, and eventually a series of showdowns.
here is the now all to familiar story online:
http://www.siegecraftnw.com/whitepass.htm
Vintage is alive and well. And to my mind all of this is proof. We're still Americans, and when things get unreasonable I see that we're gonna have another Boston Tea Party.
-SIEGE
Jerry, good to hear your feelings on kids races, although I know that's a sticky point with liability and insurance with AHRMA. We have a 15+ year non-AHRMA VMX club following up here in PacNW with a 7-month series, that has included a <12yr old XR75 class all along. Often have 300+ entries, very popular and well attended. There used to be 4-5 AHRMA events a year in our area, some with both Vint and PV/Evo, but attendance dropped and a few promoters discontinued. I believe we're down to 1 national MX in WA and a couple of regional VMX's competing with a monthly non-AHRMA races. Very, very few from these states have time/money it takes to drive to NV or CA (where most of the "AHRMA NW Region" events are held--go figure)
Some of the guys active in the non-AHRMA racing here tried for the past two years to coordinate together with AHRMA in order to reinvigorate AHRMA events up this way, but all fell apart finally around the issues of having a kid's class and having same-day Vintage and Evo events. Some of these non-AHRMA events have had full-gates of XR75 entries, and bringing your son/daughter along on race day helps earn a hall pass from mom--it's also the family thing to do. Often Dads ride vintage and older sons ride PV/Evo, so same day events help the numbers too.
So now we basically have a full-year calendar of non-AHRMA events to choose from, which are getting plenty of attendance, minimal rules and regs, and everyone gets along great. With a no-hassle, low cost and well-run event on the calendar every month of the year, many of the guys I talk to are wondering whether they should bother renewing their AHRMA license this year. It's a shame. Sometimes though the simplest formulas work the best.
Jon McLean
Lake Grove, OR
.......www.flvmx.com...........fun!!!..............
Jerry and Jon, well said. The bottom line is AHRMA is sinking their own ship. I understand some folks not wanting kids at the races for insurance, more classes and longer days, wanting to keep vintage racing "pure", etc, but the bottom line is that many of us have kids that would add extra revenue and, probably the most important reason, educate the younger generation about what really cool old bikes we have. Just like our "Penton Future Project", without seeding and fertilizing for the future the tree won't grow!
What has ARHMA done for me lately?
Echo's, in the the post, is a call to them, to give a chance for our
"sons".
There is something, of a relationship between a father, and his son.....
Take them fishin...
The motorcycles, will come later..............
Best on a "Penton Campfire".......it burns deep
Thanks,
Tom Brosius
Its a real shame. But come on, every non vintage race in this country has kids classes. Why is it that AHRMA has this "kids" insurance issue and not everyone else? Are they making it up? Do they have bad legal advise (well I guess we know that answer), or do they know something the AMA and everyone else doesn't? After the bankruptcy thing and now this I think we need a new vintage org.
Curtis Harper's Missouri Vintage MX circuit (//www.movmx.com) is one of those that parted with AHRMA several years ago due to the "no kids rule." Curtis has his hands full trying to accomodate the growing number of folks out there wanting to do some vintage racing AND have their kids race, too. He runs several kids "support classes" and they don't need to be vintage, but it's getting the next crop of vintage nuts hooked. This year a CRF70, next year a Super Rat or (better yet!) a Six Day. It works! AHRMA needs to take note.
Jeff DeBell
Hey Boys
CJ here- I tend to live in a cave with my 50 gallon drum of Tasters Choice- partly why I don't post often enough here-
so all of a sudden to be aware of coordinators/riders/Americans who are fed up as we were with the heavy hand is amazing. Our issue wasn't kids, it was V&PV, but it went down the same way- with some arguing, some maneuvering, and eventually a series of showdowns.
here is the now all to familiar story online:
http://www.siegecraftnw.com/whitepass.htm
Vintage is alive and well. And to my mind all of this is proof. We're still Americans, and when things get unreasonable I see that we're gonna have another Boston Tea Party.
-SIEGE
SIEGE, your post is exemplary, well documented and well written.
Trying to sift thru all of the info, is a burden, and yet, there is a piece of information there.
AHRMA does have some tasks at hand...last year at Two Rivers, the National Trials was held after the PV on Sat. afternoon to accomodate the PV riders who wished to compete in the Trials, several Trials riders from outta state left, due to the lenghty journey home.
That very year, I tried to compete in the trials after going WFO in PV.
It would be fair to say, that I did not do so well, but it was a choice, an element of risk mgmnt.
In order to finish first, then first I must finish.......
Packing all these into one event for all is, with risks.
I would prefer fair events...at least give us a chance!
For someone to say PV's ruin the track for vintage is a silly excuse.
Regional coordinators should know what is happening in their region.
To hear stories, from track owners, that they will not deal with AHRMA....is not good....
Like you said, "we are AHRMA" and I do pay my dues, they do have feduciary responsiblities.......
If you should find the time, perhaps a very short dissertation on what happened in your Region, but that is up to you, and I will not press the issue.
? is, is this happening in other Regions?
I don't know, but there are masters out there, trying to bring all of us quality events.......
Thanks for your efforts!
Respectfully,
Tom Brosius
I have a vested interested in AHRMA succeding. I have these old bikes and I want to race. I attended my first event at Combs this past weekend. There was a lot of hard work involved by the organizers and my experience with AHRMA staff was good - new member #s, pre-entry. We (6 riders) had a great time. 4 of us including myself are new AHRMA members. My son, Christopher, just turned 16 (and I had to prove it via a birth certificate submitted to AHRMA). I would not be involved in this sport at this time unless Christopher could participate. Keeping younger riders on the sidelines until age 16 is a bad deal. I hope AHRMA will do something to let the kids participate. It will make the sport stronger. And, a special thanks to those of you who took the time to speak to Christopher at the Combs event. Youth and inexperience is a good thing! Share you knowledge and passion with the next generation or it will be lost. That would be a shame.
Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN
Ernie,
It was my distinct pleasure to meet you and your son at the ISDT Vintage Qualifier this weekend. I was one of the guys working tech and rode my (new to me) '76 Hercules 175GS/7A that Helmut "Speedy" Clasen built for Burchard Lenz for the 2003 ISDT Reunion Ride in Dalton.
I spoke to you and your son as you were leaving. Christopher sure seemed to like what he was doing 'cause he had this gleam in his eyes. I sincerely look forward to meeting you guys again on the trail. I don't agree with AHRMA on the kids rule either and am part of the Missouri Vintage Motocross scene. Living in Kansas City does have its rewards (besides the BBQ).
However, I have to disagree with DKWRACER on one point. I ride both Vintage, Historic, and Post Vintage bikes regularly. I do notice that after the PV guys have had their turn at the track there are large whooped out sections before/after each turn. So, I feel the vintage bikes should be run BEFORE the post vintage bikes.
Phil Ketchum
Siege - Your webvsite and story of "the state of Vintage" is a masterpiece!!! Too bad it is a REAL story of the sad, sad state of affairs and underhanded dealings fomr "the dick mann block" You and your team were sincere and wanting to try an dmake a difference and grow AHRMA. Instead the only thing you got was PV is an outcast group and we dont want your kind. Amazing, pathetic is all I can say.
Well, the no-youth, no support clsses mandate is noew a line in the sand, stay tuned!!
Terry Gates
AHRMA Classic 125 racer
Penton 125 Six Days (2)
Penton 175 Jackpiner
Penton 250 Harescambler (wannabe!!)
a few thoughts boys-
first hey Tom - thanks for the kind words;
there is a balance- we (H&T) do trials before the GP, then V & PV one one day, and works out perfect.
Ernie- don't worry man- Vintage is healthy- if Ahrma goes down something else will appear.
Phil- yeah, for sure I have been to whooped out tracks- E-Street in CA was like that, and no fun to ride on- of course we were there with modern bikes- but also at the Farm which for some reason is the Holy Grail of tracks around here- also VERY whooped out sections- with no Evo bikes in sight- choice of track is the key, not excluding a section of the racing crowd
ANYWAY the ISSUE isn't any of that stuff- tracks/kids/time/viability (sic)
it's the heavy hand. I saw Schwarzkopf talk years ago after DStorm1- and the one thing I remembered that he said was you tell your commanders to lead.
You don't tell them HOW to lead.
and that's a great deal of the problems with all this Ahrma Mess. We were doing fine. But they had to keep on calling to say we couldn't do this. And we couldn't run that. And finally they took me out as the regional leader so their guy could be in there instead.
Whatever. I'm going to have some free time to BUILD MY KTM.
know what I mean? :-)
Jon- I had stop by the airport yesterday - to get some big seals for the steering stem.
the lady behind the counter said she used to have a Hodaka....
SIEGE
seige, It is not a KTM it is a PENTON.... and I am looking forward to helping you getting it put together.
It is a sad affair indeed to see the kindgarden approach to vintage racing.. " it is my ball and I make the rules or I won't let you play " I came to the table hoping that we could work out the differences (it is why I joined with seige on the a team) and I heard what I thought was a glass half full attitude,but the actions were quite different, still I think there are some good people involved in ahrma. And I have trouble believing anything that has been said by ahrma anymore..... It really is a shame.. I am still looking for reasons to renew my dues...
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (finished project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
I am tired of the AHRMA/Dick Mann bashing. People seem to run from internet site to internet site screaming that the the sky is falling.
AHRMA was started to promote vintage racing. Youth racing and modern classes have nothing to do with this. There are many other groups, like VDR and American Retrocross, that provide all of this. I would not call them vintage racing groups. They have great racing and have some vintage classes. Nothing wrong with that, its is just a different goal.
Dick Mann. Terry Gates posted this on another web site:
"dick mann planned a boycott premier and classic event on the same day". This quote refers to a race in Oregon that happened on the same day as a National in another region about 1000 miles away. The post says that it was the same reason and the intent was to hurt the attendance at the National. I was at the race at the Crooked River Ranch in Terrebone OR. There was no boycott, just a great event in a very cool place.
PNW Region. When I first read Seige's post on what happened it made me both angry and sad. There are two sides to every story, so I asked Ed Parsons about it last weekend at Crooked River. I could tell Ed was pretty annoyed with the versions of the story that are circulating the net. In his view events like Washougal are very simple. Why would you have an AHRMA sanctioned event at Washougal when you don't require AHRMA membership? It is either an AHRMA event or not. AHMRA did not stop the event, they just said it is not an AHRMA event. Seige also asks why Madras went away. What I heard was the property changed hands. Not an AHRMA problem.
There is room enough for AHRMA and groups like VDR. If the mid-west is better served by something closer to VDR, then that is what they should have. Mitch Winder is a good guy. The Trustees of AHRMA are too.
george, i started this thread here and on other discussion boards to let everyone know of the situation that has arisen from the board of trustees of ahrma sending out an edict to all the regional coordinators that they must cease having youth (younger than 16) classes at their regional events. i attend a lot of ahrma events from as far west as phoenix to the east coast, so i can answer first hand that this is a very unpopular decision that may cause serious defections of some of the regions. one of the strongest, the midwest, has already jumped ship. i mentioned this earlier. i love ahrma and the racing and comraderie that it brings. i have made some of the best friends of my life since joining a few years back. i ran for trustee of ahrma last fall and though unsucessful by a few votes, i intend to run again in the fall. i hate to see the organization splintered by defections of the regions. it will hurt the organization as a national sanctioning body if the regions drop out and it will have a ripple effect of members not renewing their memberships. is ahrma in turmoil again over this issue? you better believe it. i personally am not bashing ahrma, i'm trying to do something that unfortunately the board has not been very good at, communicating with other members.
regional coordinators ran youth classes and modern support classes at their events to be able to field enough entrants to justify the promotor to have us race at their facility. having attended many vintage/post vintage regional races with low turnouts i can see the justification. and there were never multiple modern or mini classes (at least not at the ones that i was at) but were truly just a support class to bring in a few more riders to allow the track owner to at least break even.
as far as the washougal race, the ahrma board would not agree to a joint sanction with any other organization or agree to even consider a weekend membership. yet depending on the venue or event they have allowed that before. i believe that kind of narrow outlook prevents us from being able to garner high profile tracks and events such as washougal. but that is the boards right, but speaking for myself, i'm attempting to nudge them to be a little more open-minded. a few others aren't quite as diplomatic. :) chicago jerry
Quotequote:Originally posted by George Vadney
AHRMA was started to promote vintage racing. Youth racing and modern classes have nothing to do with this.
Kids didnt race in the '70s? Thats news to me, I remember racing a lot on my XR75 in the 70s as a kid, both enduros and motocross. I dont particularly like kids racing modern bikes at AHRMA races, but why not allow a kids vintage class? This is exactly the kind of closed minded short sighted thinking that will hasten AHRMAs decent into oblivion.
We are talking about the American HRMA. What contribution did the Premier class bikes make to AMERICAN racing? I know for a fact that the XR75 and the kids that cut their teeth on it in the early '70s had a thousand fold more impact on AMERICAN racing than those british dinosaur bikes that the Trustees covet so much.
Just to be clear, I am not anti-AHRMA, nor anti-Trustee. I do think they have made poor decisions and that this next year is a pivotal moment in AHRMA history. I desperately want AHRMA to succeed, but in my opinion the worst case scenario is playing out.
Brian
Brian, the latest VV has brought us a decision. It was an article by Jeff Smith. In it, he brought an edict by AHRMA, not to allow youth participation............... As I recall, I was once a youth...my own snot, was the only thing that got in my way.......
It was AHRMA's decision to do this, they are taking away the youth of America today.
And, in addition, they might have taken regional quality events as well.
Why punish, regional events...
The banner of AHRMA, should not punish us....
They should promote the youth of America today, and not under threat of litigation...
Sorry, but I do tend to dream a-lot.
Tom Brosius
AHRMA # 2186
AMA # 321962
POG # 136
I don't know where the idea that Siege has bashed anyone is odd to me, and where did we get the idea that just because we have disagreed with anyone, is somehow bashing anyone is a strange idea. I wish more people would have been at the trustees meeting two years ago at Chehalis. Mr. Mann rip us all a new one and why did he do this, we repectfully disagreed with him, yes I mean respectfull!!!! I wanted to believe that ahrma really wanted the best for our sport. but Chahalis was the beginning of my slipping confindence. I have been here for all the nonsense that has happened up here in the PNW and I can tell you that what Siege has said is true. It is clear to us that the riders of the northwest wanted youth involved in vintage racing amoung other things. Change is alway hard but we must change or we will die.. I have no wish to see Ahrma go away I feel that it has alot to offer but neither can I stand by and say nothing. There is no doubt that Mr. Mann is a great motorcyclist. but he is a mere mortal like the rest of us and he too can be wrong. our beloved sport is changing and there is nothing that any of us can do about that, but what we can do is see the signs and change where and when we need to. To say that kids have no room in vintage racing is short sighted, to say that we can not get insurance for them is either a ball face lie or is at the very least an unwillingness to try and make room to the next generation. If it was so impossible then why have so many seemed to find away to make it happen. There use to be a time that I believed what ahrma told me but recent events has only demostrated to me my own foolishness in believing them... the issue with the youth is a prime example.
At this point, I have almost now confindence in Ahrma's ability to do anything but maintain the statis quo... and that saddens me greatly.
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (finished project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
A lot of the problem with kids racing in my opinion is the destruction of bikes and minibikes that can't be replaced. I think a solution to that would be to have a Chinese company make a replica of the Honda SL70 and that would not be hard to do as they still manufacture Z50, CT70, SL70, 90 and 110cc engines that they currently put into pitbikes that are dangerous in my opinion because the wheels are too small to be stable with the riders that are riding them. Imagine a SL70 with a 110cc engine and manual clutch. A great training tool for upcoming young riders that could ride at vintage events. The bikes could be cheap to buy and maintain. Parts would be plentyful. Just an idea .
Dwight
Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.
You mention the destruction of bikes and mini bikes that can't be replaced. Isn't that true to some extent with any "vintage" bike? Parts for most if not all brands are becoming harder to find and more expensive as a result.
I think a vintage kids class would be the way to go. Honda XR 75s, XL, XR 70s, 80s, Yamaha JT 60s, 80s, it'd be like On Any Sunday all over again. It would be a way to teach the next generation of riders the value of the bikes and a good way to make it a family outing.
In reply to Dwight's last comment "parts would be plentifull". I disagree. Working at a Honda dealership we see about 3-5 people a week looking for Chinese parts. Only one distributor in the whole of the USA that I know of and they don't go by part number but by a description. Dwight you are out of touch with the current Chinese problem. Over 147 manufacturers in China, with no concern about suppling parts. This will have a huge negative effect on future sales. Once a parent buys a piece of junk from china, can't get the simplist of parts, do you really think that they will come back and trust a Japanese dealer? As far as parts interchainging with Honda or Yamaha. No. Had a piston out of a 50cc Chinese bike with an engine looking identical to the Honda Z50. Piston was 2mm smaller and the wrist pin was smaller. Dealers selling the Chinese bikes would like us to think the parts are the same because it helps them sell their junk.
these types of open discussions are what ahrma needs to open its ears to. there can be varied opinions on how best to proceed with youth classes, but instead the board refuses to allow ANY youth RACING. with this i strongly disagree. but does anyone know that ahrma DOES in fact allow youth events? they just don't openly discuss it or address it in their mandate that they sent to the regional coordinators. i have quite a few names of significantly younger than 16 riders that are ahrma members who have participated at ahrma NATIONAL events, not just regionals. they ride in trials, and while i certainly hope that they get to continue doing so, i fail to understand how the board can knowingly allow that to continue while stating that other youth classes in the off-road factions are unacceptably risky.
LET THE KIDS RACE, not just ride trials!
i'm going to submit some other rule change proposals for the new rulebook updates, but i won't waste my time submitting one for youth racing this year. the current sitting board will still be dealing with all submitted rule changes, and they will be the same folks that rendered this current edict. if i can win the election for trustee in the fall, the votes against youth racing will no longer be unanimous.
[B)] chi jer
Quotequote:Originally posted by t20sl
In reply to Dwight's last comment "parts would be plentifull". I disagree. Working at a Honda dealership we see about 3-5 people a week looking for Chinese parts. Only one distributor in the whole of the USA that I know of and they don't go by part number but by a description. Dwight you are out of touch with the current Chinese problem. Over 147 manufacturers in China, with no concern about suppling parts. This will have a huge negative effect on future sales. Once a parent buys a piece of junk from china, can't get the simplist of parts, do you really think that they will come back and trust a Japanese dealer? As far as parts interchainging with Honda or Yamaha. No. Had a piston out of a 50cc Chinese bike with an engine looking identical to the Honda Z50. Piston was 2mm smaller and the wrist pin was smaller. Dealers selling the Chinese bikes would like us to think the parts are the same because it helps them sell their junk.
No, I am familiar with the problems with Chinese bikes but some are actually Honda Contract engines like Lifan. Others are just copies. But do you think that parts for 1970s Hondas and Yamahas would be more plentiful ? Also kids are harder on bikes than adults. I think this would be a way to get kids involved and not destroy bikes of worth. You can buy complete engines for less than $400.
Just an Opinion,
Dwight
Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.
Quotequote:Originally posted by thrownchain
You mention the destruction of bikes and mini bikes that can't be replaced. Isn't that true to some extent with any "vintage" bike? Parts for most if not all brands are becoming harder to find and more expensive as a result.
I think a vintage kids class would be the way to go. Honda XR 75s, XL, XR 70s, 80s, Yamaha JT 60s, 80s, it'd be like On Any Sunday all over again. It would be a way to teach the next generation of riders the value of the bikes and a good way to make it a family outing.
The problem is that Kids are harder on bikes than adults. They don't yet respect the difference between a modern bike, a used bike of a few years and a true vintage machine of which parts are hard to find. My idea is to give them a vintage class bike in construction but not in actual value. Teach them the differences and how they are to be ridden before giving them an actual vintage machine. Wouldn't you rather see kids enjoying themselves on a Honda SL70, lookalike that cost $1000 to $1500 or to see them playing Bubba Stewart on a $2000+ actual Honda SL70 that you have trouble finding parts for ?
Just an Opinion,
Dwight
Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.
Dwight,
I, for one agree with you on this issue. If they want to race in AHRMA they should be on vintage or vintage styled bikes
Donny Smith
Paragould, AR
Dwight: A look-a-like Honda would probably be even cheaper. How much fun is a kid going to have when his bike breaks and he can't get parts. Lifan parts are not interchangable most of the time. If they are then there is your supply of SL70 parts. Whoops, you can't get Lifan parts, scratch that. So now the small supply of Honda parts still available will be used up for Chinese junk. Sorry, Dwight, but this is a sore subject to any current Japanese bike dealer. Please don't take it personal. Let the kids race but race vintage and teach them respect for the machinery.
Any thoughts on letting AMA take over for AHRMA?
Hey George
long time, man.
we both know that "bashing" is yelling & thrashing without anything to back it up.
I went out of my way to present a thought out presentation with facts & numbers to back it up. Even if I were mistaken about why Madras fell by the wayside- and judging by the way that Eugene & Spokane fell, I think I'm right - even if- the way the PV Riders were asked to leave is still unacceptable, and had everything to do with how those members became disenchanted with the club's regional direction.
Maybe the declining numbers / riders general disgust just happened to coincide with the land getting sold. The problem is still there.
who gets to say what Ahrma should and shouldn't be? I think the owners do with it what they feel like. what this will come down to is this: WHO OWNS AHRMA?
OK- the first sentence in the book says "Ahrma is member owned"
I'm willing to accept that maybe this is all for show- that it's really a miserable High School Clique- and if you're not in you'll never get in. Fine whatever. I don't actually care that much.
what is shameful is asking people to volunteer their time and efforts and to "grow Ahrma" then when they do, go out of your way to prevent them from geting the job done- to set them up for failure, and then throw your hands in the air and say SEE?
the A-Team has never been recognized by the trustees, or thanks for their hard work- I don't mean me-but those who I personally asked to help- who I then found myself apologizing to for dragging them into the tar pits.
anytime anyone says "anti-Ahrma" I think little of it.
NO ONE is anti-Ahrma.
but when you see the boat sinking, you say hey- guess what? the boat is sinking.
- SIEGE
I will say this:
If I WAS an enemy of AHRMA the first thing I would do is try to stop new membership and make current ones leave. The question I have is why are the trustees doing that when they are supposed to be helping AHRMA become healthier?
Bottom line, AHRMA already has insurance for kids and kids DID race in the "vintage" era, there is no GOOD reason to exclude them.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
I do feel there are ways to do this. AMA does supply insurance that will cover the kids. Maybe if AHRMA would combine a few of the classes they would have enough time for a kids class. At least one.
Dwight
Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.
AHRMA already carries the same insurance that every local track that runs mini classes carries. Liability is a fabricated excuse to get out of allowing kids to race.
Even if AHRMA doesnt create National kids classes, they could easily set up one class, like an XR75 spec class, for kids to ride at Regionals with their parents. Or even a 100cc class restricted to under 16 kids, which would give all those Super Rats and Berkshires a place to compete.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
I want AHRMA to succeed and I want kids to race. I also want to preserve vintage bikes and not get them beat up (I do a good enough job of that myself [B)]). I know of one AHRMA racer who took a 2001 XR200, had it bored to 220, I think, by Powroll and was competing in AHRMA cross country events [:0]! Not really the spirit of vintage, is it?
However, why not let kids race XR80 Hondas at vintage events? They are air cooled, drum brake, and bullet proof. Besides, there are a million of them and parts are plentyful. I know my son loves to race his RM65 in modern then thrash around on the XR inpit bike races. Just another thought.............
Any year of the XR200 is legal for AHRMA Post Vintage since they were all drum brake and air cooled. Its the "like design" rule, they are all essentially the same bike from '81 to '02. I think I know who you are talking about, and he races in PV Open class, not against 200cc bikes. Depending on the course he races a KTM 250 or the XR220. The big bore/stroked XR200s were very common when they were new, so I dont see that as a problem since its a "period correct" modification.
I like the idea of XR80s (any year) for a spec kids class. Require it to be stock so there is no temptation to build $5k mini racers and let them loose.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
Honestly the older twin shock XR75 and XR80 are better than the single shock models. My thought about the SL70 lookalike bike would be more in the spirit of VINTAGE with the older style 4 speed engine but I'm easy. I was looking on Ebay and they are selling complete 110-125cc Honda look-a-like engines for $250 including carbs another $60 for shipping.
Just thought that some enterprising individual might have someone actually clone the SL70. They already have on the CT70s. Just a thought. No, I don't think Chinese bikes are as good a Japanese but their day is coming if they ever get their distribution network settled.
Remember when we thought Japanese bikes were junk. I never thought we would actually think that a Honda SL70 would be worth saving, did we.
John Penton never thought that his bikes would have such a following 30 years after they quit making them either.
I agree there has to be a way to get at least the age limit dropped down to a level that most kids can partipate in AHRMA events.
Dwight
Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.
DR is right, the Chinese are coming. I worked for a distributor here in the US and although the Chinese, at times, will make you wonder how they put their pants on without screwing it up they keep trying. It all depends on where they want to put their expertise. Many of their "Engineers" don't understand "damping" or gearing or a thousand other things that make or break a product. But they are getting smarter. Every major auto manufactor is having at least some of their parts made in China. There are many Americans over in China right now chasing the Almighty Dollar by showing the Chinese right from wrong.
Pete Petrick
Penton Jackpiner
Slow but Good
I have been out of the country for a while and am now checking in to see this thread. From a Hodaka point of view I agree with Mick and Chicago Jerry. We at Hodaka have always believed that the kid's are our future. I am also a member of POG and know that the same philosophy holds true with the Penton marque. All the hard work that goes into promoting the Penton and Hodaka brands are almost a waste of time if there is not a new generation that will come along and carry the torch when we are gone.
At this years Hodaka Days we will not be able to have a school again like Jim Pomeroy used to teach for the kid's. We had planned to have Ronnie Pomeroy teach this class to the kid's but the AMA has dropped the insurance for schools or classes. Also in the past we were not AMA sanctioned and needed to get private race insurance. As you all know this can be very spendy but we felt we wanted to race in little downtown Athena Oregon so we did it. When I secured race insurance there was NO extra charge to allow the kid's to race. So I am not sure why Ahrma will not allow this ? You can be an AMA member at five years of age and race modern or mini-bikes correct ? But you cannot race a slower older vintage bike. I am not mud slinging or taking issue but rather just trying to ask an honest question that I have yet to hear a good answer for.
Again at Hodaka Day's this has been a hugely successful event because we have made it not only about us old guys but also about families and kid's. The more we have involved woman and children in this the more successful it has become.
This year's ISDTRR I will be riding with my son Chris. Dave Rozier with his son Mike. Paul Danik with his son Chad. It really does not get any better than that.
If we cannot have insurance available for schools to teach our kid's how to ride and we cannot have our kid's at Ahrma events learning the right's and the wrong's of proper motorcycle riding technique what do you do ? Just buy a motorcycle and cut your kid loose ? The land is no longer available which most of us had as kid's so where do they learn ? Thank you for the space to post this somewhat rambling message.
Paul
To add to Hodaka Paul's comment:
"This year's ISDTRR I will be riding with my son Chris. Dave Rozier with his son Mike. Paul Danik with his son Chad. It really does not get any better than that."
I had the priviledge of riding with my 16 year old son, Christoipher, at the Combs Warm-up ride, along with my brother, cousin (Baby Brian)and boss. Brian's enthusiam for the sport has resulted in 4 new AHRMA members. We are hooked. Hope to meet again at New Blaine RR.
Jerry, thanks for bringing this to our attention and for seeking a change.
Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN
We've had an XR75/XR80 (twin shock) class for kids up to 12 years in our Pac-NW Vintage Dirt Racing series for at least 10 years and never had a problem. There are at least a dozen guys in their late teens/early 20s who started there under the tutelage of their vintage-loving parents, who now regularly race the adult vintage/PV classes.
This past year the promoter split it to a Stock XR75 class and a "Hot Rod" XR75 class, and also added a Schoolboy class for up to 14 yr olds for PV CR60s, YZ80s, etc. A lot of Dads bring out their 4-6 yr olds and their PW50s or JR50s and they tag along getting some experience with the stock XR75s, no one complains and, knock on wood, all has gone fine. I prefer to bring my sons up through this training ground rather than the current modern MX route using the moderm MX/SX tracks.
I would bet that if our local promoter consulted an attorney like AHRMA did, he'd be advised to forego all kid events entirely to limit liability exposure. But then again, if we all swaddled ourselves in bubblewrap and remained indoors 24/7 breathing purified air, we'd all reduce our risk of ever getting another bruise too.
Jon McLean
Lake Grove, OR
Hello!
These posts, have brought an emotional value about the next generation...
My greatest fear, is what has the AHRMA organization become?
If you read VV "Regional Concerns" AHRMA has spent a large amount of money over the last ten years, and now they are in Ch.11.
I had no part in their argument. And now, they threaten with..
litigation.
Is AHRMA becoming a self propelled Legacy, who spend no time to protect local events, and to force us to attend Mega-events ie: Nationals with entrants 500 +...
My child deserves better than this.
Does the Penton Organization, under guidance from our presidant, wish to send a message to AHRMA?...
Ask a favor, but do not expect the impossible, our president is a fair friend, that we have elected, and I trust him well.
Is AMA, to reel in AHRMA?
This I do not know.
If you read the introductory, in the AHRAMA rulebook, it says we are a member-owned organization.....
Should they read the POG forum? If they do, they would surly understand the message, that is pure......
Thanks, for the posts!
Tom Brosius
I have to agree with Jon, as a parent. I would not want my son or daughter to race modern bikes. I have a great nephew that is just 18 years of age. he has broken so many bones... I am not sure he even know how many he has broken. His parents do not ride and so no one has really taught him how to ride safely... is it any wonder he has broken so many bones. If he lived a bunch closer and if he was willing I am sure that I could be of some help but alas that is not the case... what is my point as a parent, If my kid is going to ride then what better way than for me to spend time with him riding and and in a venue that allowed him to ride or race in a some what sane setting........Modern racing certainly does not afford that but vintage racing does.....
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (finished project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
2years ago i was lucky enough to ride a isdtrr,in ark. with my 2 sons one just back from iraq,this was the best memory i can have,i know my sons are older but that makes no differance,when you get a chance to do things with your kids do it. my dad and brother from texas to watch. so that made it even better.. ahrma needs to grow or it will die.dennis brown 1974 jack piner
dennis l.brown
I'm 39 and I still want to ride with my Dad. I'll get him out with us eventually. My best memories from riding are Dad and I just riding around chasing rabbits and other silly stuff. When I was at the age that young men start to get into trouble with the law I was more interested in spending time with my Dad because we had so much fun riding.
That is why I want to see AHRMA allow kids to race. I want other kids and Dads to be able to experience what I did, but they should not have to wait until the kid is 16.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
Brian well said !
Paul
QuoteOriginally posted by Ernie Phillips
re: "I had the priviledge of riding with my 16 year old son, Christoipher, at the Combs Warm-up ride, along with my brother, cousin (Baby Brian)and boss. Brian's enthusiam for the sport has resulted in 4 new AHRMA members. We are hooked. Hope to meet again at New Blaine RR."
Just wanted to mention that these four are all QUALITY, i.e. TOP NOTCH people, and extremely fast! Young (age 16) Christopher Phillips could not be around a better influence in my opinion.
Phil
Mr. Dick Mann......
It was my honor, to meet with you very personably at the Jenny Ranch (Steamboat Springs) this past w/e..
We discussed the nature and the direction of AHRMA. (very painfully)
You where also correct that, conversations about directions, should not be, with emails.
I noticed, that you have no email address, does this bother me?
NO.
I have no other prowess, than to give the words of music, and music, is her name.
Thank You,
for being very honest with me,
Tom Brosius
(center text)
John David Souther
Faithless love like a river flows;
raindrops falling on a broken rose
down in some valley
where nobody goes,
and the night blows in
like the cold, dark wind.
Faithless love like a river flows.
Faithless love where did I go wrong?
Was it telling stories in a heartbreak song
where nobody's right, nobody was wrong?
Faithless love will find you
and the misery entwine you.
Faithless love, where did I go wrong?
Well, I guess I'm standing in the hall of broken dreams;
that's the way it sometimes goes.
Never a new love never turns out like it seems;
It's the feeling comes and goes.
Faithless love like a river flows;
like raindrops falling on a broken rose
down in some valley where nobody goes.
Faithless love has found me,
thrown its chilly arms around me.
Faithless love like a river flows.
Hi Jerry, I have been trying, in earnest to interpret all of the emotional statements in the latest issue of VV...
You should know, that the Rocky Mtn. Region is now under the contol of Rob Stickler.
I have whitnessed some very arguementative emails within our region.
I think the arguement for youth racing is understood.
AHRMA has made a statement about the litigious implications.....
Members of our Region are very concerned about all of the issues, and I don't think we can continue without the support of AHRMA.......
But I am not a spokesperson for the Rocky Mnt. Region.
Somewhere, in the middle, is a racer who wants to go racing and to see new sucess avenues for both the promoter and the sanctioning body.
I am one of those racers.
These posts are a reflection of traditional values, and all are appreciated.
I thing the POG is well represented in historical values and the importance of establishing and bestowing value to the next generation...
Will balance be re-established?
Tom Brosius
I do not understand why the AHRMA thinks that minors will suffer injury racing vintage bikes and tracks. I have not ridden many vintage races but none of them have had doubles or points on the track that launch you into a possible landing on the flat front of a jump.. vintage racing has to be safer for young riders than a "modern mx track".
I think pit riders are a lot more dangerous than racing.
Joe Murphy
Pentons
Maicos
Rokons
I agree that youth and MX riding causes a lot more injury than a vintage ride. My 11 year old wants to race MX, and I would feel a lot better about him racing if he could be allowed to participate in a vintage ride on a modified-(lowered) 1976 MC5 Penton 175 that I am building for him. He previously had a 2002 Ho#%a XR100R that wasn't fast enough to satisfy him, and would like to have a KTM SX85. In my opinion, the vintage trail riding builds confidence, quick thinking, and balance skills, that would help him later with MX if I decide to support him in racing that type of competition. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Most of us were minors when we started racing on bikes and tracks that are refered to as vintage today. Sure there were crashes and injuries but the stakes back then were not as high as they are today if you crash. I think it is foolish for AHRMA to dis-allow the younger kids to race.
these are the type of open discussions that the "powers that be" of AHRMA need to hear. i have a letter published in the current issue of AHRMA's vintage views that discusses some of these very issues. in order for the organization to move forward and thrive, we need to be able to involve young riders and help to mentor them. i believe that the board of trustees has the authority to preclude youth racing, though i strongly disagree with that stance. but i resent the notion that they use the "unacceptable liability" as a convenient excuse. there is certainly adequate insurance available as is demonstrated coast to coast at any given racetrack every weekend. i hope that AHRMA can recover from the devisiveness of this ruling and i will continue to speak out on this issue. thanks to everyone for the input.:) chi jer
Being a father of five, four of whom have at least tried racing, allows me to make some choices for my kids and sometimes those choices are not what they want.
My youngest son just outgrew his RM65, and I told him I wasn't going to buy him a "modern" 85 bike, but would still get him a long-travel 80cc post-vintage bike. He can still jump, and the best part is he will travel where I go and race the regional and "outlaw" races that I race. If he gets good enough, he can beat kids at modern races with his vintage bike. After all, if Ricky Charmichael rode my 390 Husky and I was on his 450, we all know who would win!
I'm with you guys, let the kids ride vintage!