OK, I know better, or so I am told. Does anyone else still wash out their foam filters with fuel? In doing so my twinair filter has partially come apart. In the old days, when there was lead in the fuel this never happened, and back then I actually did regular weekly maintaince.
Is todays glue not as good? Or are all filters designed for the new filter fluid systems? Any advise on glues, possibly contact cement?
Thanks guys for your advise.
Paul
PS. I went to the Twin Air website and they say their filters will hold up to cleaning with harsh solvents or gasoline. Does anyone have the correct Twin Air filter number for the CMF Pentons with the fiberglass airbox, 72-73-74.
Thanks again.
I bought a TwinAir filter for my 1980 MC 250 and while trial installing it without oiling it, it came apart. Maybe it's just me, but I now run Uni air filters on most of my bikes. I like the cage that comes with most of them better anyway. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Mike,
OK, I feel better now, I am not the only one to have a Twin Air come apart. My buddy Augie used to tell a story about a kid named Bill that hung around his shop and was really good at breaking stuff, Augie used to say he wouldn't even let Bill roll a tire across the shop as he would probably break it, I thought I might have a case of the Bills..
A number for the correct Uni filter for the CMF Penton would be appreciated.
Thanks
Paul
............in my stable I have always used pump gas or #1 kerosene to wash my filters, other methods (parts cleaner solvent in a washer tank) seemed to break down the foam. I have had some real durable Twin Air filters and some that came from the bag and failed, I don't really care for the Uni cages but the foams are good, so are the Vintage Iron filter foams.......................Penton oval filter from UNI=NU 1401 ST
Same as the Yamaha Blaster ATV.
Dwight
I have a bucket which I use to catch and store fuel from my diesel tractor. I keep this 1/2 gallon or so of fuel to clean filters and wipe down tools.
Using diesel fuel, I have never had a problem with the Twinair filters I use on my bikes. Of course, I follow the standard foam filter cleaning proceedure of not twisting them and only squeezing the fuel out. Twisting a foam filter will typically destroy it.
I also use very little filter oil, especially when I use NoToil, PJ1 or similar sticky treatments. One time I bought a new/used dirt bike less than a year old. It ran but very poorly. Believing that I can fix anything, I bought it and disassembled the carb, checked and adjusted valves, replaced fuel etc. etc. I finally discovered that the previous owner had OVER oiled the filter with one of the sticky oils. I cleaned it in diesel and it runs perfectly! Now, when I'm working on a poorly running bike, it's the first thing I check. :)
Just my two cents.
Jerry
Jerry: Your comment about using very little sticky treatments brings up memories. Had a Honda CR125 customer that went thru 3 bore sizes, one at a time, within 1 season of racing. Each time he brought a cylinder in fro boring we quized him about oiling his filter. He assured us he did. Back then he was using 60w engine oil. Same thing I used to use in the late 60's early 70's. Anyhow, fast forward to final bore size 4th over. I asked him to bring his air cleaner in and service it in front of me. He agreed and went to our solvent tank, washed filter nicely, squeezed solvent out, wrapped it in a rag and squeezed it again and twisted it slightly. Then without saying anything he went over to one of the work benches, picked up a squirt oil can and shot 3 or 4 squirts of oil on filter in a zig zag pattern, squeezed it gently a few times and said he was done. I then instructed him that he only oiled about 1/10th of the total filter media. I showed him that to oil a filter properly it should be completely submersed into the oil (anytype of filter oil) squeezed to get air out and then removed from oil and squeezed, wrapped in a dry cloth, squeezed again and again to remove as much as possible. Morale of the story he continued to race that CR125 for almost 3 more seasons with only a piston and 2 ring changes. Still was on 4th over when he traded for a CR250 in 1978 or 1979. I don't mean to lecture but in my opinion and Honda's only a filter that was completely saturated with oil before squeezing out all that you can will filter correctly. Of course you should jet to the oil you use and stay with that oil. If your pistons come out looking dull grey, your eating dirt. Food for thought. Ted
Uni Filter makes a nice combination pack of spray cleaner (water rinse) and filter oil. I use this system on the Uni filter in the Penton and on the Twin Air in my Yamaha WR250F with no problems.
Paul,
I have been using the Twin Air Liquid Dirt Remover for over 10 years, and it's never damaged any of my filters. Although it's not cheap, it does a great job. Kevin Brown sold me on the stuff when I saw how clean it got his filters. I took a gallon of it home, and my Dad took one look at the can and said, "Your wasting your money. Gasoline works just fine". It took one of our filters that had already cleaned in gasoline and rewashed it in the Twin Air cleaner and rinsed it off. The filter actually came out white like it was when it was new. Needless to say, my Dad was totally convinced how good it worked and we never went back to using gasoline again.
http://www.twinairusa.com/products/cleaner.html
I also use the plastic tub that they sell. It has a wire tray that allows the dirt to settle to the bottom.
http://www.twinairusa.com/products/tubs.html
Ted,
I've got a good air filter story too.
A local rider bought a new '89 KTM 125 from our local dealer. For some unknown reason, he allowed his buddy to convince him that when put oil on the air filter, it cuts down the air flow, and that hurts the power. Even though he had been racing 2 strokes for over 10 years, no one could convince him otherwise, and he raced and trail rode the bike without any filter oil. So, instead of wasting his time on oiling an air filter, he spent his time putting a new set a rings in the bike at least once a month. And guess what...his buddy did nothing but run his mouth off to everybody about how much those KTM's were nothing but a piece of junk because you had to constantly put new rings in them. Go figure!
Lots of great advise. Can any one give me the Twin Air part number for the filter that fits the fiberglass CMF airboxes?
Thanks
Paul
Hmmm... I remember since 80s. when I started using foam filters in all maintanance books was said "DON NOT USE GAS FOR air filter cleaning. That will destroy your filter!"
Andrew
^^^^^^^^^^^
1976 MC5 175
1978 GS6 400
1986 KLR 250
2006 Husky TE/SM 510
2004 Zuki V-Strom 1000
What's the general opinion of the No-Toil Product and process....you know out here on the "left coast" you even have to filter your #$%^&& after eating your beans and rice tortilla.
Victor
Paul,
The Twin Air part number is 154200.
http://www.enduroklassiker.at/shoppics/148-P7270007.JPG?PHPSESSID=7d6cc64e2ad4974f19a8cce543a67dd1
Gary
Gary,
Thanks for the part number, and I will be ordering the cleaning system products that you use.
Victor,
I don't even want to know how those filters are cleaned:D I hope your recovery is coming along well.
Thanks again to all for the advice.
Paul
This has been a great discussion. I have been using the No-Toil filters, oil, grease, and cleaner powder with water for the last few years and haven't had to rebuild anything yet. The filters look like new after you clean them and the oil really catches the dirt. I feel the inside of the CMF airbox for grit after removing the filter and it is clean. Rosemary appreciates the fact I don't smell like gasoilne or kerosine after I clean them and I do it after every race weekend. Chicago Jerry doesn't like No Toil oil because if you let the filter sit for a long time (6 months or longer), the element can get stuck to the cage. Solution, clean your filter after every race weekend and don't oil it until you are ready to use the bike again.
Teddy
Can anybody post UNI filter number (oval) for 1978 KTM 400.
... and if possible who sell it.
Andrew
^^^^^^^^^^^
1976 MC5 175
1978 GS6 400
1986 KLR 250
2006 Husky TE/SM 510
2004 Zuki V-Strom 1000
Quotequote:Originally posted by motogon
Can anybody post UNI filter number (oval) for 1978 KTM 400.
... and if possible who sell it.
Andrew
^^^^^^^^^^^
1976 MC5 175
1978 GS6 400
1986 KLR 250
2006 Husky TE/SM 510
2004 Zuki V-Strom 1000
NU-1401 S
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
Quotequote:Originally posted by tlanders
This has been a great discussion. I have been using the No-Toil filters, oil, grease, and cleaner powder with water for the last few years and haven't had to rebuild anything yet. The filters look like new after you clean them and the oil really catches the dirt. I feel the inside of the CMF airbox for grit after removing the filter and it is clean. Rosemary appreciates the fact I don't smell like gasoilne or kerosine after I clean them and I do it after every race weekend. Chicago Jerry doesn't like No Toil oil because if you let the filter sit for a long time (6 months or longer), the element can get stuck to the cage. Solution, clean your filter after every race weekend and don't oil it until you are ready to use the bike again.
Teddy
Since day one when NO-TOIL came to the market,and after I testet the function of it in my Vintage and KTMs,I have never used anything else.
It is the best thing to dirtbiking ever done.
I can wash the filters in my wifes laundry top without getting shot.
I dont need rubbergloves and it is totally biodegradable.
:D:D:D
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
The reason you do not use gas on a foam filter is for the same reason you do not leave gas in a fiberglas tank. It eats them... Lead is not the only thing that has changed in the fuels of today.... I have been using No Toil for the last four years and it has worked really well... but there is a problem... it is only to be used if you are planning to ride the bike... they tend to gum up and harden if they are left of the filter for a long time.... so if I am going to put a bike up, I will clean the filter and put it in dry.. then when I am ready to ride it again, I will clean the filter a fresh and oil it....
Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)74'
250 hare scrambler (project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)
Andrew,
I don't think UNI makes a filter to fit the 78 filter cage. Al Buehner may sell the No-Toil. I will work on sending you pics comparing the stock 78 filter housing and cage and the updated Hi-Point replacement that I converted to the K & N filter today. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Thank you Mike!
Andrew
^^^^^^^^^^^
1976 MC5 175
1978 GS6 400
1986 KLR 250
2006 Husky TE/SM 510
2004 Zuki V-Strom 1000
.............never had a problem leaving gas in a fiberglass tank, even real live race gas [:0] is there anything else??? 'Cause the rest pings in the can!.........
I always cleaned the old filter oil, mud and goo out of my filters with gas, and then used hot soapy (laundry detergent) water to clean and rinse the rest of the stuff out. Then I leave them in the sun to dry before oiling, greasing and reinstalling.
With todys KTM air boxes, these filters get so full of mud and water and crap so quick. I have a spare filter for all 4 of my vintage and modern race bikes.
I also duct tape the air box up with matching black duct tape to help keep the polywogs and milfoil out [8D]
I've washed my filters 30 times since early spring this way.
BTW grease the airbox and filter seals too.
I havent a clue on the part numbers Paul, I pay the parts man to look it up for me
Raymond
Down East Pentons
Quotequote:Originally posted by motogon
Hmmm... I remember since 80s. when I started using foam filters in all maintanance books was said "DON NOT USE GAS FOR air filter cleaning. That will destroy your filter!"
Andrew
^^^^^^^^^^^
1976 MC5 175
1978 GS6 400
1986 KLR 250
2006 Husky TE/SM 510
2004 Zuki V-Strom 1000
...........if that is the case as stated above then we are all in trouble, non reed valve engines produce good deal of spit back and you can bet it makes it to the air filter..........
I just got off the phone with the Twin Air folks,
http://www.twinairusa.com/contact/
They said if you have a failure with their product to contact them as they stand behind their products. The filters for the CMF airbox units is # 154200, as Gary stated. The reason I asked for the part number is that the local dealers who handle Twin Air products have not been able to get that number from their systems, even the ordering system on the Twin Air site could not find that filter, but their customer help person was able to find it.
If you need help with a Twin Air filter, call 1-800-749-2890 and ask for Jerry. I asked him if I could post this information and he said to please DO post it as they want to help anyone with a Twin Air problem. The new 154200 filters on their shelves are older, he said if I have any problem with the new product they are shipping that they will have new filters made at the factory. They are replacing my filter at no charge and would like to have the old one shipped back to see why it failed.
He asked if I had washed it in gas, I said I did, he said that was not good, I told him it said on their homepage that you could use gas. I mentioned that if gas is bad for them that they need to take that info off their homepage, he said gas must be OK if the factory folks posted that on their homepage, I will be curious to see if that information is changed. Below is their homepage filter info. These folks treated me like I was their best customer, they are A-OK in my book. Hope this helps.
Paul
TWIN AIR DUAL STAGE FILTERS
From everyday riding to the most adverse conditions nature can dish out, you want engine protection you can count on. The Twin Air line of air filtration products will provide your motorcycle with maximum intake protection... day in and day out.
1. Coarse open-pore outer foam catches airborne dirt, grime and sand.
2. Fine open-pore inner foam acts as a second filter to trap the smallest particles while ensuring maximum air passage.
3. Exclusively formulated adhesive withstands repeated cleanings, even with harsh solvents or gasoline.
4. Thick, flat foam, greaseless sealing ring ensures maximum contact with your airbox, while acting as a breathable gasket for increased air passage.
5. Fused outer and inner elements prevent dirt and grime from being lodged between layers, unlike Twin Air, this can be a problem with inferior two piece designs. Trapped particles can restrict airflow. And if dirt works its way into your engine, a pinhead sized granule will gouge your cylinder, piston and rings like a bullet.
Paul,
Excellent follow up. Sounds like to me that they may have had old stock, but want to know any problems and will stand behind their products. I have had good luck over the years with their product and use gas sometimes to clean their filters. Having worked for a major company at one time I always tried to follow up on product quality and yes Honda has had some major problems believe it or not, but I feel most of the time (past tense) those problems were address. Thanks again great post.
Ron Carbaugh
I always thought that "Twin Air" got their name from the dual stage air filters that they produce, but John Penton informed me otherwise.
A few years ago, Toni and I were talking to John at a GNCC, and we got on the subject of air filters. He told us the first time he ever saw a foam air filter was on a desert racer's bike, and the rider had made it himself. John said that he thought it was a great idea, so he called a friend of his to see if he could make some. His friend was Bob Twin.
...........Twin-Air is originally from Netherlands, sorry...........
Paul,
I am sure you have used 3M weathersrip adhesive before. Buy a tube to refurbish the Twin Air to better than new condition. Next best thing to duct tape.
By the way, what does 3M stand for (trivia)?
Tom (nearly shutdown for winter) Benolkin
.........vintage page from Twin-Air site-Netherlands..........
Vintage Filters Cages
BULTACO
Model Year Part No
Frontere thru '79 156001
Pursang thru '79 156001
Sherpa (trials) thru '82 158050*~
CZ
Model Year Part No
all MX '65/'89 158200
HUSQVARNA
Model Year Part No
Husky MX '64/'70 155003~
Husky MX '71/'78 154502
KTM
Model Year Part No
250 '71/'75 154200~
250 '76/'77 154502
250 '78/'81 154200~
MAICO
Model Year Part No
MX '70/'79 156001
METISSE
Model Year Part No
Metisse MX (set of 2) all 158204~
MONTESA
Model Year Part No
250 Cappra thru '78 158001~
414 Cappra thru '78 158001~
OSSA
Model Year Part No
250 MX thru '78 158210~
SWM
Model Year Part No
all all 158060~
"~" = Special order filters; please allow 4-6 weeks delivery and $20 special order fee.
Vintage Filter Cages
BULTACO
Model Year Part No
Frontere thru '79 156002~
Pursang thru '79 156002~
CZ
Model Year Part No
MX '65/'89 158201~
HUSABERG
Model Year Part No
Side all 158191~
Top all 158195~
G.P. MX '97/'99 158198~
FE/FEE/FC '00/'02 158189~
HUSQVARNA
Model Year Part No
MX '64/'70 155003A~
MX '71/'78 154503~
MX '79/'82 155002~
4-STROKE
'85/'88 155006~
4-STROKE
'89/'91 155502~
4-STROKE
'92/'99 155504~
4-STROKE
'00/'01 155507~
410 TE/WRE '97/'02 157101~
610 TE/WRE '97/'02 157101~
KTM
Model Year Part No
80 all 154002~
125 '82/'97 154105~
250 '71/'75 154503~
250 '76/'81 154201~
500 '82/'97 154105~
4-stroke '84/'86 154503~
4-stroke '87/'92 154505~
MAICO
Model Year Part No
MX '70/'79 156002~
MX '80/'81 156002~
METISSE
Model Year Part No
MX all 158205~
"~" = Special order filters; please allow 4-6 weeks delivery and $20 special order fee.
Hey Paul, to answer your other question I do stock the oval uni you are looking for. They work on the penton's you mentioned and hercules. Let me know offlist if you still need one. I have sold tons of them. No problems with Uni ever.
Thanks!
Keith Taylor
KTR Moto - autorized Mikuni dealer
Midwest SWM - USA's only remaining SWM dealer
Tom,
If I remember correctly, "Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing". Am I even close?
Patrick Houston
Cosby, tennessee
Paul,
The only thing about a cage for the 1978 MC5-79 MX-6 is that it requires the additional clamping stud arrangement that separates it from the other years, and I have never seen it offered. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Keith, Mike and everyone else.
Thanks for the information. The new Twin Air filters will be here tomorrow and I will just use those.
I really appreciate everyones input and suggestions, both on this site and by email.
Paul
I received the new filters already today from Twin Air. Along with the filters was a letter explaining that gas is NOT recommended for cleaning, and explaining that they have changed their website to reflect that fact, along with giving much more detailed information, along with pictures showing how to care for and maintain your Twin Air filter. Here is the link to the new page http://www.twinairusa.com/tips/
Obviously I was wrong to use the gas, but in the end I think some good has come from my goof.
Paul
I personally prefer the paper filters over the foam filters. That's why I've stuck with the original paper unit that came with my Six Day.
As TLANDERS said:
TLANDERS-"I feel the inside of the CMF airbox for grit after removing the filter and it is clean."
I also feel around inside the airbox occasionally, sometimes there is some fluff in there but I haven't felt any grit.
Here are some pictures.
FILTER
http://my.photodump.com/truchaos/Filter.jpg
AIRBOX
http://my.photodump.com/truchaos/AirBox.jpg
Jerry
1972 125 Six Day
CRF150
CRF230
CRF450X
Jerry,
Great photos, however you might want to check the filter more frequently. LOL
Tony
My two bobs worth on the filter debate. Like most in the good ole days I just washed my filters out in petrol and hot saopy water. I didnt have any problems except maybe a few parts of the glue coming unstuck. This I just glued up with contact glue that lasted for awhile. Fast track to modern times. I have both Twin Air and Aussie made Uni Filters that I have washed out in mineral turpentine and then the hot water. I find that turpentine gets rid of the filter oil but not the grease that I use to seal the filter so for the last clean i thought I would go back to the petrol. This was on one of my Uni Filters and I managed to melt about half of the glue with the filter basically coming to pieces in my hand as I washed it in the hot soapy water. The filter started to shrink in some places. I managed to right about 80% of this by heating the filter with a hot air gun. This might be a little too hot and maybe a hair dryer might be better. I used the trusty contact glue to piece it together let it dry and reoiled it. Will find out tomorrow if everthing is ok. Cheers
Bill
Unifilter also makes fine products, and has filters specifically for Pentons .. http://www.unifilter.com/online%20catalog/vintage.html
Larry Seale
I choose to ride
Quotequote:Originally posted by Paul Danik
I received the new filters already today from Twin Air. Along with the filters was a letter explaining that gas is NOT recommended for cleaning, and explaining that they have changed their website to reflect that fact, along with giving much more detailed information, along with pictures showing how to care for and maintain your Twin Air filter. Here is the link to the new page http://www.twinairusa.com/tips/
Obviously I was wrong to use the gas, but in the end I think some good has come from my goof.
Paul
Doing a lot of Filter cleanings for many years in my shop,..
I realised very early that gasoline did damage to the foam filters,
and I begun to use parts cleaner fluid,..Until NO-TOIL came onto the market and so far this is the best System.
From anybody who is still using Gasoline I would like honestly answered my question,..Are you guys use rubber gloves(Scin cancer),a mask(Gasfumes are VERY dangerous to inhale)and finaly,what are you doing with the messy-dirty leftover gasoline???
Are you really collecting it and bring it to a gas station or do you still pure it onto your naighbor lawn???
(or in that back yard hole in the ground=1 litre gas-oil will ruin 1 million liter ground water)
Yeaaaa,..I know,..you are all soooo good people,..you would NEVER do that,..[}:)][}:)][}:)]
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
I haven't seen anything about Filter Skins here. I've been using them for 4 years now and doing fine. They are like a nylon sock you oil the same as your filter and slip it over the air filter. When it gets dirty, just put on another Filter Skin that is already oiled. In due time I'll clean the main filter and several skins.
Speedy - I use dirty gas to set anything on fire that will burn. The water heater converted to a stove warms the garage in cold weather. You don't want to ask what I burn.
Young Ted
Quotequote:Originally posted by Young Ted
I haven't seen anything about Filter Skins here. I've been using them for 4 years now and doing fine. They are like a nylon sock you oil the same as your filter and slip it over the air filter. When it gets dirty, just put on another Filter Skin that is already oiled. In due time I'll clean the main filter and several skins.
Speedy - I use dirty gas to set anything on fire that will burn. The water heater converted to a stove warms the garage in cold weather. You don't want to ask what I burn.
Young Ted
Hmmm,..lets see....are there any cats and dogs leftover in your area??????[}:)]:D[}:)]
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73