Hi ,
I have a friend who is having trouble with his 6B motor. The bike will run for a minute , then foul a plug over and over again. Any help for him would be appreciated .
Thanks !
Matthew Quinlan
Dump the fuel tank & clean the carb. Mix up a batch of fresh gas/oil. (I use Yamahalube 32:1) Install correct new plug (NGK B8HS is one). Clean the air filter and properly service it. Check timing. Got good compression?
Go to open riding area, crank it up, and nail it. Run it wide open, if Ok then it may just be a carb jetting issue. If not it may be ignition related - bad motoplats act strange. Good luck!
Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN
I have had this symptom/problem from time to time, most recently at the ISDTRR. I believe my issue was excess fuel in the crankcase. My bike had been sitting for a couple of months without draining the fuel or any other fuel system maintenance. The bike would start but anytime a load was put on it, it would load up and stall. After pulling the carb and checking the ignition (and changing several spark plugs) I got the Jackpiner's engine to get good and warm, actually pull a gear and "clean the gunk out of the crankcase". After that; no more problems. I have yet prove or disprove that fuel floods the crankcase, it's just my theory. Might be a float hieght or float needle issue. For all I know, the carb maybe letting excess fuel in from boucing up and down just traveling down the road on a trailer.
Pete Petrick
Penton Jackpiner
Slow but Good
As always thanks for all the great info and friendly advise!
Matthew Quinlan
i had similar problems with a 250 the weekend of the evansville C-C. it turned out that the needle jet was worn on one side. not that easy to spot without taking it out of the carb. put in a good one and viola, bike starts runing good. good luck. chi jer
I noticed a lot of folks run Yamalube in their vintage bikes . Is that a good non synthetic oil that is good for vintage bikes?
Matthew Quinlan
I'm running Maxima 927 Castrol for that "vintage" fragrance that stays with you mile after mile.
Splash a little on; you'll love it!
Pete Petrick
Penton Jackpiner
Slow but Good
'01 KTM EXC 520, '74 YZ 250, '86 Honda XR 250, '71 Hodaka 100, '74 SUZUKI TM 400, '73 Penton Jackpiner
Quotequote:Originally posted by MattyQ
Hi ,
I have a friend who is having trouble with his 6B motor. The bike will run for a minute , then foul a plug over and over again. Any help for him would be appreciated .
Thanks !
Matthew Quinlan
For all you EXHAUST smokers.
Get some OPTI oil,..mix it 100-1 and you will never have a problem with your sparkplugs anymore.
//www.opti2-4.com
Ask Opti for a dealer near you and do it.:)
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
Quotequote:Originally posted by Speedy
Quotequote:Originally posted by MattyQ
Hi ,
I have a friend who is having trouble with his 6B motor. The bike will run for a minute , then foul a plug over and over again. Any help for him would be appreciated .
Thanks !
Matthew Quinlan
For all you EXHAUST smokers.
Get some OPTI oil,..mix it 100-1 and you will never have a problem with your sparkplugs anymore.
//www.opti2-4.com
Ask Opti for a dealer near you and do it.:)
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
(http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6162/optimolcuq3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
Excess fuel or "flooding" into the crankcase, as WFOPete points out, will cause this symptom. Usually, it will start and blubber at closed throttle, but die as soon as you open it up at all. Sometimes it won't start at all, with plug showing nice blue spark and coming out wet w/ fuel. A 250 Harescrambler I had did this if I left the fuel taps on while parked for an hour+, as the floats weren't closing the needle valve off all the way and carb was overflowing a tiny bit down through the intake. Didn't cause the plug to foul, but plugs will wet-foul at times.
If you're not aware, the KTM motors (like CZ motors) have an allen head screw up between the fins, right below the crank, just for the purpose of draining excess fuel. Just a teaspoon-full of excess will cause it--once drained, my 250 would start first kick, run perfect. Not sure if the Sachs have a drain screw...if not, turning off fuel and laying it over on the side will sometimes clean it out sufficiently. I'd try this easy fix first.
Jon McLean
Lake Grove, OR
Thanks for all the info ! I guess I shouldn't be running Morris 2 stroke oil at 20 :1 ! I read that on the following repair site , that said to be safe run at 20:1 because you never really know the proper ratio to run for all these oils out there !
Here is what was written by Dan's Motor Cycle Repair
http://www.dansmc.com/indexindex.htm
I'll condense hours and hours of study and research to one statement. "You can run the manufactures oil at whatever ratio the manufacture says and feel safe. ANY other oil run at 20 to 1."(20 parts gas to 1 part oil) .In other words run Honda oil in Honda 2/strokes at Honda ratios. But if you run Honda oil in a Yamaha, run it at 20/1. Yamaha oil in a Honda? Same thing 20/1. They all say "Ours is the finest oil available." Trouble is they will not really tell you why.
FOLLOW THE ABOVE RULE
If You Don't.... It's OK.... I Don't Care.... It's Not My Engine!!!!
Now, I know a lot of you out there who feel you can run things much leaner. Like 32 to 1 or 40 to 1 or even leaner. No less an expert than Bob Greene recommended a 32 to 1 mix and no less an expert than Gordon Jennings recommended a 20 to 1 mix. A lot of people run lean and a lot of them get away with it... and a lot of them don't. So what gives ? I feel the problem is this. No one really knows at what dilution the 2-stroke oils are mixed at or exactly what additives are added. At least I don't, and I've tried to find out a number of times. They send you a bunch of specs but will only say "Ours is the finest available." They never say why their $3.00 a quart oil is better then the $5.00 a quart stuff. Here are a few ideas to consider.
Let's look at dilution. At least that's my word for it, and I don't really mean the weight of the oil either. Most say they are a 30w. I mean the ratio of the stuff that counts to the stuff they put in to make it look and mix good. That make sense ? Probably not ! Well, think of it this way. If oil "A" is twice as thick as oil "B" and you mix both at 40 to 1, oil "A" will really be 20 to 1, right ? Now think about the reverse. If "A" is half as thick as oil "B" and you mix both at 40 to 1. "A" would now be 80 to 1. A bit lean right ? I don't think the real dilution ratios, between different oils, are that big. I do think there is enough of a difference between 2-stroke oils to cause a problem. Especially when you consider the additive package.
Gas to Oil Pre-Mix Ratios
for Two Stroke Engines
USA Mixtures
Ounces of Oil to Gallons of Gas
Ratio
Gas to Oil 1 Gallon
Gas 2 Gallons
Gas 3 Gallons
Gas 4 Gallons
Gas 5 Gallons
Gas
16 to 1 8 Oz
Oil 16 Oz
Oil 24 Oz
Oil 32 Oz
Oil 40 Oz
Oil
20 to 1
BEST 6.4 Oz
Oil 12.8 Oz
Oil 19.2 Oz
Oil 25.6 Oz
Oil 32 Oz
Oil
32 to 1
OK 4 Oz
Oil 8 Oz
Oil 12 Oz
Oil 16 Oz
Oil 20 Oz
Oil
40 to 1
NOT SO GOOD 3.2 Oz
Oil 6.4 Oz
Oil 9.6 Oz
Oil 12.8 Oz
Oil 16 Oz
Oil
50 to 1
DO NOT USE 2.56 Oz
Oil 5.12 Oz
Oil 7.68 Oz
Oil 10.24 Oz
Oil 12.8 Oz
Oil
100 to 1
NEVER USE ! 1.28 Oz
Oil 2.56 Oz
Oil 3.84 Oz
Oil 5.12 Oz
Oil 6.4 Oz
Oil
Matthew Quinlan
Matty,
Just about everything Dan believes about 2-stroke oil mixture goes against what all dirt bike manufacturers recommend for the gas to oil ratio. This also applies to smaller industrial 2-stroke engines.
For over 40 years on numerous brands of 2-stroke MC's and under varying elevations, temperature, rider ability and event (MX, CC, Enduro, Hare Scramble, dirt track, road race, etc.) I never ran more than 32-1 ratio and NEVER did I seize an engine due to the fuel ratio. I have seized a few because of improper jetting on long high speed events, but never at MX, Enduro, CC, etc.
I will continue to run at 32 or 40 to 1. I am even going to experiment with Speedy's recommendation on an Enduro bike, Penton SD.
We all have our bias when it comes to many things about MC's, timing, oil, spark plug, chain, filter, etc. and we usually go with what has worked successfully for us over the years.
I do agree with the following statement -
If You Don't.... It's OK.... I Don't Care.... It's Not My Engine!!!!
Just my take, no offense meant to anyone's own experience.
Tony
Tony ,
Appreciate your thoughts, I figured 20:1 was too rich. I like to hear everyones point of view and passion! Having a two stroke enduro , I worry about not varying my speed enough on the road and causing seizure!
Matty
MattyQ,
Too much oil can cause plug fouling, but there is one other thing, that you ought to pay very close attention to.
First off, we used the Hi Point concentrate oil for the entire age of the Penton era, and while that product is no longer branded, Hi Point, it is still out there on the market. It's called Golden Spectro and it is exactly the same product. You mix it at 52:1 (12 oz. in 5 gallons) and if the jetting is proper and the air is clean (properly cleaned and serviced air filter), then the oil will not be an issue.
The other thing that you need to to make sure is, that the ignition is working properly. All of the mounting of the ignition components need to be sure that there is no rust or corrosion between the parts. AND there can't be rust or corrosion between the engine and frame.
Make sure that the spark plug cap, is mounted cleanly to the spark plug wire. If the cap has been installed for a long time, it is a good thing, to remove it, trim back the wire a little bit, and reinstall it. That way you know, that there is no corrosion between the wire and the cap.
Make sure that the stator terminals connecting to the coil, are clean and free of corrosion. Over time, they can develop some corrosion, and that can cause issues with the ignition system.
Lastly, if the ignition spark is not bright blue or "whitish blue", then you may have issues with the ignition itself. If the magnetism of the flywheel has weakened, that can cause a lower voltage output to the coil. We can remagnetize them at the shop.
If you want to send the system to us, we can do the whole dynamic test of the system, including the remagnetizing of the flywheel. The cost is $34 plus shipping charges.
Dane
WHAT DANE SAID :D Been there, Done all the above, A new PVL made every thing good.
Golden Spectro 52:1 is all that I've used for 30 years in all my 2 strokes. Bikes, Lawn Mowers, Chain Saw, Weed Eater, Leaf Blower, Ect
Dennis Jones
Quotequote:Originally posted by Dennis Jones
WHAT DANE SAID :D Been there, Done all the above, A new PVL made every thing good.
Golden Spectro 52:1 is all that I've used for 30 years in all my 2 strokes. Bikes, Lawn Mowers, Chain Saw, Weed Eater, Leaf Blower, Ect
Dennis Jones
Yes,what DAN said is correct.
You go bei the expirience of people who have used,raced and ridden
a product,and always "DO WHAT THE BOTTLE "says.
If the manufactory tells you to mix 20-1 with there oil,"DO IT"
If you use a oil where it says "MIX 100-1" + the long time expirience,...DO IT.
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
Here's my 2 cents.
The way you ride is the determing factor of how much oil you should use.
If your normal riding is putting around the park and oil is drooling out the end of the exhaust, your using to much oil.
If on the other hand, your screaming your 125cc at 10,000 rpm, holding the throttle wide open and only using the clutch to slow down and your still drooling oil, your using to much.
The balance is to protect and lubricate the engine for the extreme conditions.
Personally, I like to see it drool.
RonW
I have been running Golden Spectro mixed at 47-1 in my 1979 MX6 250 with no problems until recently. The exhaust pipe tip and front exhaust flange was always very oily and I thought that it may be a little too much and considered either changing oil or reducing the mix to 52-1 as recommended. I recently had the engine freshened up by Gary Ellis and found that the pin hole in the front of the piston to cool the exhaust bridge had gummed over and created a slight hot spot/seizure. Based on that information, I would disagree that too much oil is good. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Hi Poggers, there is some very interesting reading on the "Spectro" website, FAQ's and an Oil Seminar link as well.
http://www.spectro-oils.com/
Enjoy.....
Tom Brosius
Yamalube R works great in my bikes and is easy to obtain.
Quotequote:Originally posted by MattyQ
I noticed a lot of folks run Yamalube in their vintage bikes . Is that a good non synthetic oil that is good for vintage bikes?
Matthew Quinlan
Quotequote:Originally posted by 454MRW
I have been running Golden Spectro mixed at 47-1 in my 1979 MX6 250 with no problems until recently. The exhaust pipe tip and front exhaust flange was always very oily and I thought that it may be a little too much and considered either changing oil or reducing the mix to 52-1 as recommended. I recently had the engine freshened up by Gary Ellis and found that the pin hole in the front of the piston to cool the exhaust bridge had gummed over and created a slight hot spot/seizure. Based on that information, I would disagree that too much oil is good. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Please read your story carefully again.
As you wrote it,you did not use MORE oil with 52-1 but less oil then before when you used 47-1.
Fact:
47-1 is 47 liters gas to 1 liter oil.
52-1 is 52 liter gas to 1 liter oil.
Your gummed up piston cooling and lubing hole has nothing to do with your MIX change.
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
Speedy,
I was running 47-1 and had CONSIDERED reducing the amount of oil to 52-1. If I had done so, I may have avoided the situation that occurred. You miss-interepreted what I said. That small of a change may not have changed the outcome, but as I said, I thought that there was too much oil around the exhaust tip and the front exhaust flange. The bike always ran good, regardless. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Quotequote:Originally posted by 454MRW
Speedy,
I was running 47-1 and had CONSIDERED reducing the amount of oil to 52-1. If I had done so, I may have avoided the situation that occurred. You miss-interepreted what I said. That small of a change may not have changed the outcome, but as I said, I thought that there was too much oil around the exhaust tip and the front exhaust flange. The bike always ran good, regardless. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Why is Inglish so hard to understand??:D[B)]:D:(
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
Speedy, last time I checked, Mike's Inglish was just fine.
How's your Jerman?
NGAWA BWANNA!
Of course, this is all in jest....right?[8D]
Tom Brosius
Mile High Pentons
Now be nice. If I could ride like Speedy, I woudn't worry about my English either. By the way, Tom, did you sell that 79 swingarm? Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
so this thread must be the reason all the young bucks run 4 strokes [8D]
Raymond
Down East Pentons
Oils do not encompass the whole story.
Consider this: We are very fortunate to have modern technology at our disposal. Each and every decision comes from both experience and trust.
What works for others, may not work for you!
Seek what you trust, piston coatings are a part of the =.
My only recent failure was not about oil, or the ratio. I should have coated the damm thing!
Still Friends eh?[:p]
Tom Brosius
Okay, let us consider this. If we accept the fact that a specific volume of fuel (gas plus oil) is metered as it goes through the carb by the jetting, it mixes with air and goes into the engine. A very simplified version of what happens. If we have a certain mixture, lets say 20:1, and we reduce the oil concentration to lets say 32:1, we have decreased the amount of oil that enters the engine per the same metered volume. If the total volume of fluid enters, then we have incleased amount of gas that mixes with the air and decreased the amount of oil. Because the jetting hasn't change, the total volume (gas plus oil) remains unchanged. If this is correct, by putting less oil in the pre-mix, you untimately increase the gas and therefore the gas to air ratio mixture increase, it becomes richer. If you change your gas to oil ratio, you may have to change your jetting (you may have to lean it out slightly). I was given this lecture many years ago. It seems logical to me but it is counter-intuitive. I previously thought that if you put in less oil you leaned the bike out, but if my logic above is correct, you actually make the bike richer with less oil (because of more gas enters the engine).
Anyone else heard of this?
Lloyd Boland
Sorry for the circle logic.
Yes, that is correct. In fact this was a topic of conversation some time ago on this message board in regards to varying the oil to gas ratio to adjust the fuel/air ratio for different elevations and climate changes. It was mentioned that it was far simpler a way to rejet for conditions than actually having to change jetting for different races based on temperatue and weather conditions. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Tom,
I have had piston skirt AND piston top coatings fail.[B)]:(
Lew Mayer
Quotequote:Originally posted by Lloyd Boland
Okay, let us consider this. If we accept the fact that a specific volume of fuel (gas plus oil) is metered as it goes through the carb by the jetting, it mixes with air and goes into the engine. A very simplified version of what happens. If we have a certain mixture, lets say 20:1, and we reduce the oil concentration to lets say 32:1, we have decreased the amount of oil that enters the engine per the same metered volume. If the total volume of fluid enters, then we have incleased amount of gas that mixes with the air and decreased the amount of oil. Because the jetting hasn't change, the total volume (gas plus oil) remains unchanged. If this is correct, by putting less oil in the pre-mix, you untimately increase the gas and therefore the gas to air ratio mixture increase, it becomes richer. If you change your gas to oil ratio, you may have to change your jetting (you may have to lean it out slightly). I was given this lecture many years ago. It seems logical to me but it is counter-intuitive. I previously thought that if you put in less oil you leaned the bike out, but if my logic above is correct, you actually make the bike richer with less oil (because of more gas enters the engine).
Anyone else heard of this?
Lloyd Boland
Sorry for the circle logic.
Yes you are right.
Gas reacher-Oil leaner,and often you have to rejet accordingly to the change.
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
Quotequote:Originally posted by Big Mac
Excess fuel or "flooding" into the crankcase, as WFOPete points out, will cause this symptom. Usually, it will start and blubber at closed throttle, but die as soon as you open it up at all. Sometimes it won't start at all, with plug showing nice blue spark and coming out wet w/ fuel. A 250 Harescrambler I had did this if I left the fuel taps on while parked for an hour+, as the floats weren't closing the needle valve off all the way and carb was overflowing a tiny bit down through the intake. Didn't cause the plug to foul, but plugs will wet-foul at times.
If you're not aware, the KTM motors (like CZ motors) have an allen head screw up between the fins, right below the crank, just for the purpose of draining excess fuel. Just a teaspoon-full of excess will cause it--once drained, my 250 would start first kick, run perfect. Not sure if the Sachs have a drain screw...if not, turning off fuel and laying it over on the side will sometimes clean it out sufficiently. I'd try this easy fix first.
Jon McLean
Lake Grove, OR
Not the KTM engines but the CAN-AM engines have that drain (and crankshaft locking)screw under the engine.
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
Speedy, my 73 175 JackPiners have the drain screw on them. You got to make sure all the glass beads outta the hole when rebuilding the motor also.
Raymond
Down East Pentons
All of my KTM 175-250-400 engines have that drain screw beneath the crankcase. I always leave the plug in when glass beading the cases, just to make sure not to weaken or eat away at the threads. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
Quotequote:Originally posted by 454MRW
All of my KTM 175-250-400 engines have that drain screw beneath the crankcase. I always leave the plug in when glass beading the cases, just to make sure not to weaken or eat away at the threads. Mike
Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
I stand errected....:D[8D][B)]:(
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
Dane,
Appreciate your thoughts about the ignition. I was told my motoplat was damaged due to it freezing one winter by the previous owner , so I am not sure if it is even worth testing . I would love a PVL unit however , low on funds right now.
Matthew Quinlan