With the very good prospect of having a 100cc MX class in 2008, who would build/race a 100 cc Penton or other Sachs engined bike and what events would you ride? If your decision is based on allowing a 6-speed, please indicate such so we can let rule makers know.
I would like to build a CMF Berkshire, 5A and/or 6B if 6 speed approved. For me, using a 6B is easy as I have a fresh 100 engine ready to go. Events: Casey, Mid-O & Barber for sure. Hardrock, Diamond Dons, Devils Ridge maybe. Rider: Kid Christopher at 150lbs.
Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN
Ernie,
I am currently rebuilding a Berkshire 100, with the option of a CMF or Frame breather frame. I am leaning towards the CMF frame cause it has to be lighter, with the frame breather swingarm (because of the side stand).
I don't have any "A" motors, so this would leave me out, and I'm not sure if I would go buy one just to race motocross (which I've never cared for).
Seems awful silly to allow reed valves, but no 6 speed motors. Were these rules writtten by some Hodaka fanatics?
Sure would like to see a legitimate 100 class for cross country......
Clark Gristina
Honestly the Hodaka guys were not questioned about the requirements for the class. They were however intrumental in stirring enough commentary to make this class happen. I know of no Hodaka rider that would mind a piston port 6 speed being in the class. In fact my Hodaka is a 1972 Super Rat with piston port engine. Same with my Dirt Squirt. I also have several G5 / KE100 Kawasaki, a 1972 SL100 Honda, and a 1970 Penton Steel Tank Berkshire. All are 5 speeds and no reed valves.
Unfortunuatly my Hercules K100GS is a 6 speed.
I will not be riding the ISDTR next year due to other commitments but I hope to ride one or two AHRMA event in the 100cc class.
Dwight
ive got my berkie all ready to go. and i raced it last year in a 100cc class. Now it isnt eligible because it has a 5 speed engine. That is just plain crazy. They say all bikes up to 75 but with 5 speeds. the only bike that affects are sachs based engines. i just a month ago did a compilation of the entrants in the program for the 100cc class at the 1973 hopetown GP. 50% of the bikes were sachs based engines about 30% hodaka based and there were a surprising number of hondas. The 1972 Kawasaki centurion was the fastest 100 engine until 1990 and it is eligible because its a 5 speed. Crazy. thats all i can say crazy. Who pissed off Dick Mann and jeff Smith.
Bill Cappel
my berkie all ready to run http://www.pelicanguanomotorsports.com/
Bill Cappel:
I just gotta tell you what a cool website/museum/operation your crew has going at Pelican Guano. I have looked at these photos before, but the "album" I viewed previously didn't have the editorial. Great, great stuff - thanks.
Good luck with your 100cc racing effort in 2008. Which really means "have a blast!" ;)
Ernie, Clark , Bill
Looking at what we have to work with I think you can block out 6th gear with out splitting the cases, changing any stock components and if 6th gear is approved later remove the lock in about 5 mins. We could bounce this off Doug , Dane , Kip and Ron C. and see what they think of the idea. They have a lot more engines rebuilds and experience with the Sachs engine than i do. But It looks to me like it would work with a little effort.
Would you folks like that as an option? Any support that can be given to a 100cc class i think with help everyone that likes vintage events.
John D.
Another idea would be to block out 1st gear. The ratios between 2-3-4-5-6 are closer. Easier to keep on power band. Just a thought. Ted
Ted,
Thats a good idea ,another way to do the same job. I think it will require a lot more work. Could you live with a box with neutral all the way down for MX? If you can its a better solution.
If you have an old 6 speed selector boss ,welding up the 1st gear notch might be all it would take. Its a lot more work to install or change back though . The boss would not be easy to put back stock. It would probably be a non-reversible change in that part.
An adjustable stop limiting the selector lever would be another way to do that with out changing things so much that the mod is per.
1/2 of 1st is the kick start gear so it has to stay in the gear box.
John D.
John: I was thinking of sliding a spacer over selector rod behind the fork piece to keep it from going all the way out. Don't know if people would be hitting neutral all the time but if geared correctly 2nd wouldn't be used that much anyway?? Ted
Ted ,
Thats another way to lock out 6th. It would have to be small enough to allow the oil to lube the bearing and made of something like heavy brass tubing because it would be spinning on the selector shaft. Only way I can think of to install it is to remove the selector rod and put it on. That would be splitting the cases unless you can change a shift key with out doing that chuckle chuckle. I have heard of it done and know of one man that did it just before the 2007 RR. He was a lot braver than me * grin *.
I think if you go the lock out 6th route you can do it with a brass or plastic dowel inserted in the main shaft from the counter shaft sprocket side. Add a steel slug ( to keep wear to a min on the primary case) inside the primary case where the speedo drive gears would normally go. Put the tranny in 5th with the lever all the way to the stop on the up shift. Trim the brass or plastic dowel to the right length . Put the steel slug inside the the hole the speedo drive gears ride in normally and bolt the case on. You would have to play with the dowel length or shim the steel slug out so they just stop the selector shaft in 5th up shifting with a little over shift.
We did this years back with silicon seal trying to keep water from entering the tranny. Used too much not thinking and ended up with no 6th gear chuckle chuckle. Took us a while to figure out what we had done. If this will work it can be removed at any time quickly and no harm done to any parts.
John D.
John,
You are right on with you blocking out 6th gear. While I think a wait and see stand on how the 6 speed ruling goes would be in order, it is fun to look at what one could do to modify the 6 speed to be legal under the current rule. My suggestion is to use a plastic or teflon round piece of stock glued (epoxy) or a screw to a plastic end cap over the countershaft end. I normally had a small ignition cover cut back to where the countershaft was totally exposed with a plastic cap on the shaft. This also served the purpose of shedding the mud away from the point of where the chain makes the sharpest curve and normally helped clean the countershaft sprocket area.
I for one would say I normally always used 6th gear in racing a 100. I think a lot to the secret to racing and winning on a 100 is the proper sprockets(gearing). Just to prove John's theroy you might look at a old post where one POG Member had a 3 speed 100.
Happy New Year.
http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3721&SearchTerms=mud
Ron Carbaugh
AHRMA has tried to sell Vintage as trying to represent the past yet they actually try to rewrite history.
In 1974 the KTM motored Penton motorcycles had more travel than any other production motorcycle yet in Sportsman class the travel the KTM motored Penton had can not be used because it is considered Post Vintage. It had that advantage then but now can not have its true Historical significance.
According to AHRMA history in 1974 the Sachs powered 6 speed 125 was outdated and gets to race with 1971 and older bikes where it did not in real history even exist yet. The same 1974 six speed Sachs as a 100 is, acording to AHRMA, then at advantage over 5 speed 1974 100s. Not logical, not historical, and not fair from one direction or the other.:(
If you do not see there is some other agenda going on here you do not have your eyes open. Strangely enough on another note there seems to be alot of defending of the Hodaka bunch than is necessary and those bikes stand to gain the most from this rule. "Be patient we are trying to work it out." Hmmm[?] Who is in charge and how hard is it to just let history be the way it was? Why in all things do the few influence how it is going to be for the many? Patience hell, change it or piss on AHRMA.
Later I will tell you how I really feel.[}:)]
Larry, I am one of the "HODAKA GUYS" . As well as a Sachs,DKW,Penton fan. I believe that the piston port 6 speed 100 should be allowed. I have a nice 1972 Hercules K100GS that I can't race in the 100cc MX class. All the Hodaka guys I know feel the same. In fact it is Paul Stannard and other Hodaka guys who are going to bat for the Penton guys.
Don't think this was a rule just for Hodaka. I believe that the Penton / DKW / Hercules / Sachs bikes were about the only 6 speed 100s out there before 1975. That probably has a bearing on the issue but I don't think it was a great advantage. Why do you think the rule was written just for Hodaka guys ? The Hodaka guys are fussing because they can't use 250 forks anymore and are stuck with the 30mm forks and can't use aluminum aftermarket swingarms anymore either. The other brands out there that had 100s were Kawasaki , Suzuki , Yamaha, Honda, Bridgestone, Harley Davidson, Zündapp and Beta all had 5 speed transmissions. That probably had a lot to do with the decision. Hodaka guys were yelling the loudest about forming a 100cc class and are yelling the loudest about allowing 6 speed Piston port Sachs engines in also .
Dwight Rudder
Penton Owners Group
Hodaka Owners Group
Vinduro
Dwight,
You are not what I would define as a Hodaka Guy. You are an enthusiast as your love is for the sport and you are not focused on one certain brand.
In my opinion the current rule helps the Modified Super Rat more than any other bike and hurts the Six Speed Sachs motored bikes, which are mostly Pentons, the most. It was the Hodaka Guys including Paul's influence that caused the sudden turn around when a poll of the vast majority of the membership had shown a want for the 100cc Class for sometime. It is a conclusion that the Board should have come to on their own and no one group or person should have enough influence to change their minds for the good or the bad. It is the Good Ol Buddy Inside Guy that is wrong. The continual defense of the Hodaka bunch may only be coincidence but usually in life when there is a lot of "not us" squawking there is a chicken. Perhaps not.
My bigger point is for some reason there is an agenda at AHRMA and there is a pattern of trying to write history the way they think fair is. All the while they call it the American HISTORICAL blah blah blah. It is just time to call a duck a duck.
Some will say AHRMAs rules in suspension, attempt to ban the D motor, and 6 speed 100 were not meant to hurt Pentons or Penton riders. I would remind them of one of Lord Byron's sayings:"Though the boys throw stones at the frogs in sport, the frogs do not die in sport, but in earnest."
I predict that in the future if Vintage survives AHRMA will not. Something bigger and better will rule. That is if AHRMA does not kill any possible Vintage future by also not listening to the majority that also would like to see youth participating. Otherwise our days are numbered anyway.
The Big Question in all this debate boils down to a question that gets asked again and again-Who runs AHRMA? The few or the majority? To this point it is not the majority.
Larry P
Dwight,
There is nothing in the rule that says the Hodaka guys cant use 250 forks. They cant use 125 forks, but they can use 250 forks, as the rule is currently written.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
Brian, Actually the 250 forks are already illegal being that they were not manufactured until 1976 and have 7.25" of travel.
That is how I understand the rule.
But I could be wrong. But if I am wrong then why were some of the Hodaka guys upset ?
Larry, I don't care for the Modified Super Rat engine. Ususally very pipey with absolutely no low end. I think the original idea for this class was to try and keep the bikes as close to OE as possible and feasable.
Dwight
Dwight, I dont know why the Hodaka guys think they would have to stop using 250 forks, its not illegal. The idea for the class might have been a "trail bike" class, but AS WRITTEN the only parts prohibited are from 125s, it does not prohibit parts from any other kind of bike. If I build a Yamaha 100 I have every intention of putting a 175 or 250 front end on it until they change the rule to specifically prohibit it.
f) Engine/frame combinations must be as manufactured; no mixing-and-matching of engine and chassis into "specials."
and at the end
Ineligible are:
Any machine or major component manufactured as/for a 125cc motorcycle.
Six-speed gearboxes of any type.
Rickman frames originally manufactured for Zundapp engines.
Monarch frames.
There is no way that a 250 fork on a Hodaka could be protested with the rule as it is now. It is neither mixing/matching engine and chassis nor is it using a part from a 125, which are the only things prohibited. You might not think its in the spirit of the rules, but it would not be in any way illegal as the rule is now. If they want a trail bike class with only parts as OEM then they need to say that.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
It is the too much travel that prohibits it as Vintage suspension rules apply.
Larry P
Correct, but they are using them now in Vintage with spacers to limit travel I guess.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
Would changing wheels from 17" and 19" to 18" and 21" on a Honda SL100 be illegal under current rules? Also what does
AHRMA think about lengthening wheel bases on any bikes? Ted
Since the hubs are the same, I would guess it a legal switch.
Not sure about swingarm. Personally I will leave mine alone. Makes for quicker turns.
IMO,
Dwight
Dwight is correct, wheels are free to change, and I dont see any reason why you would not be able to lengthen the swing arm.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
Quotequote:Originally posted by brian kirby
Dwight is correct, wheels are free to change, and I dont see any reason why you would not be able to lengthen the swing arm.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
BUT, you can't use an aluminum swing arm. Lengthen the stock swingarm.
Dwight
If I can find a 100cc cylinder and piston, I AM IN!
Andy
#14u MOVMX and AHRMA
1970 Steeltanker
83 YZ 100 and 250
82 RM 125
Suz T500 Titan
Andy,
There's a Sachs 100cc top-end on Ebay, just came on today.
Good Luck!
RonW
The stock swingarm on the SL100 is whimpy and prone to tweaking. The trick in the day was to switch out the entire rear end with one off a Yamaha AT1. Since I raced desert, I did lengthen my swingarm to give the bike a little more stability. Even with a cam, pipe, and carb the SL100 was still the dog in the class.
Quotequote:Originally posted by t20sl
Would changing wheels from 17" and 19" to 18" and 21" on a Honda SL100 be illegal under current rules? Also what does
AHRMA think about lengthening wheel bases on any bikes? Ted
New member here but not new to Pentons! (Born and raised in Lorain, OH)
I'm just about completed with putting together a basket case 72 Berkshire with a 6B. I'm certainly hoping for a rule change!
Tom Flores
72 Berksire
76 250 MC5
07 KTM 300XC
It's official - 6 speeds allowed! From AHRMA:
"After receiving feedback from the membership, the AHRMA Vintage Motocross Rules & Eligibility Committee is making a rules revision for the new-for-2008 100cc Motocross class. Effective immediately, six-speed like-design), which were factory-equipped as such. No conversions to six-speeds are allowed, either with aftermarket or OEM parts, to machines originally produced as four- or five-speeds. The R&E Committe had received numerous proposals for a 100cc class in Vintage motocross over the past few years. It seemed that members were not in agreement as to what kind of machinery they wanted to have in the class, as no two proposals were asking for the same things. Without solid input, and with the benefit of 24 years of hindsight watching other classes with relatively liberal mechanical requirements evolve, the Committee concluded that the five-speed-maximum rule would best serve the long-term health and diversity of this new class. However, the membership has spoken, and AHRMA will instead implement the 100cc Motocross class to include the pre-1975 six-speed bikes. An additional clarification: Hubs and forks from any 1974-and-earlier production motorcycle can be used in the 100cc Motocross class. This is consistent with every other class in the Vintage motocross program. Thank you to all who voiced his/her opinion, we look forward to a great '08!"
Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN
Whatever.[xx(] Sounds like the company line. Good it happened but naive if anyone thinks it really happened that way.
Larry P
When the 100cc class was first announced, this is what I sent to AHRMA:
Quotequote:"Who do I submit my views to on the new 100cc MX Class rules? Are the rules as published 12-5-07 final or are they still being developed? What is the deadline for submittal for changes? My specific interest is that we (my son & I) would like to race our Penton Berkshires with 6 speed gearboxes. They are presently not allowed. Also, I have a Monark MX bike and would like to put a 100cc 6B engine in it and race the hot 100 class. Again, present rules do not allow this.
As a general comment, I think the rules should reflect the bikes that were on the track through 1974. Make the rules a liberal as possible to encourage a large turn-out. If one brand dominates in 2008, adjust the rules for 2009.
Thank you for creating the 100cc MX class. I would like to submit formal rules recommendations. Please advise how to do this and to whom."
The above was forwarded to the rules folks. Although they chose to exclude me, I feel others involved in the discussions represented my views. I never heard anything else until yesterday when the 6-speed was allowed.
I think the way the whole thing was handled was wrong. It had way too much back-room dealings. However, the end result is good. Personally, I am thankful for the large Hodaka lobby that supported the 6-speed. Without them, the hot 100 class would have been Hodaka Only.
One way to improve AHRMA is to support those with progressive views who also understand the historical significance of the period. Vote for the Trustee that best represents the way you want AHRMA to function. For me, transparency is important.
Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN
I have 3 125 Six Days....thinking about making #3 a 100cc to have yet another class choice.....anyone want to trade 125 top end, jug, head for 100cc set-up??
Terry Gates
AHRMA racer/Penton-Ossa lover
[email protected]Penton 125 Six Days (3)
Penton 175 Jackpiner
Penton 250 Harescambler (2 1/2) Love 'em!!
Mint 400 - sweet
Something for the Rats to chew on. Ocala or bust!
(http://s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/ernie7711/?action=view¤t=penton44u100cc062.jpg)
http://s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/ernie7711/?action=view¤t=penton44u100cc062.jpg
Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN
Very embarrassed not getting a 100 together in time.Thurs. nite after putting a new head gasket in my 250 i kicked it over with tennis shoes on and it bit me (ba Bap!),knee blew up like a balloon.So did not make it to even ride 250 race.Sorry guys,Showing very poor form,especially living right here in Tucson.Going to put extra effort into getting Berkie together for next race-for me either Diamond Don's or most likely Perris(though i'd love to hit Diamond Don's but it's a long way).Anyone know how many entries there were for 100's at Phoenix???
ric emmal
Ric,
From what I gather it was all Hodaka's except for 2 100cc Yamaha's.
I couldn't make it either, (we're visiting the grand kids in Austin, TX right now) and unfortunately, I don't have the time off work for Diamond Don's.
I'm riding the Adelanto Gran Prix weekend after next, and then I'm going to put the 100cc top end on my 6b and go after them Rats.
I hope to make the Calif AHRMA events though.
RonW
Please see next post and maybe I can learn how to use a computer
Quotequote:Originally posted by paul
Cmon you guys....the AHRMA site said 7 of 9 bikes were Hodakas. Dont know where the race was but I know we can do better than that. I should look for a 100cc cylinder huh. Maybe have to come watch at Ocala. Just by chance I may have the 6 day in the back. Planned on running the 250 class but everything is up in the air for awhile. Do us proud in the 100 class bros TTP
Hey, I did not see any Yamaha's but I'm sure they will be a handful. Like my buddy said..."not a whole lot has changed, everyone still goes like Hell"
Hodaka's dominate & get front page coverage:
http://www.ahrma.org/index.htm
But, their days are numbered - March 1 to be exact!
Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN
Hopefully Kid Christopher will but a beat down on the Rats at Ocala. If they group those classes with Classic 125 like they said, I will be in that race and I can take out some of those evil Hodakas if need be.
Just put out a pit board out for me, but instead of "Let Broc bye" have it say "set a trap for the Rats" ;)
Brian
Chris should give them a fit ,at least.
Lew Mayer
Lew, I have a feeling that Kid Christopher wont need any help from me, I think he will handle those Rats without too much trouble. He gets faster every time he rides.
Brian
I just spoke with Paul Stannard and congratulated him on his win. I made mention that their was a Penton Rat Patrol being formed, he got a real kick out of that. Paul stated that he hopes to see many Pentons as well as other brands on the line in the future to secure the success and continued running of the 100cc class.
Paul
Paul it was great to speak with you today as always. I and the rest of the 100cc class racers had really hoped for a better turnout in Arizona. We especially wanted to see some of our Penton brothers out there with us on the track. After reading some of the posts here it seems some are really taking this seriously but to me it all is in fun. It was really great being in the 1st national 100cc race and I hope the turnout for Florida will be better.
I will be at Diamond Don's and a few others and hope to see some of the Penton hot shoes out there and help us all put on a show to prove there was a need and want for this great new class. I hope to see you all on the track.
Thanks
Paul
Paul,
You are as gracious as always and far to modest.
Congratulations on your win!
Thumbs Up!
RonW