I stumbled across this photo and many more of this bike a few nights back looking at European enduro sites. Any ideas what components it uses? Looks like a custom frame, conical ft hub, but standard MC style gas tank, seat & swingarm. Way Cool!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b60/chakka141/random%20Penton%20Pics/isny07021.jpg
KTM made some 50cc Sachs powered bikes. I believe it is production. There were no Pentons made like this as the Americans didn't go for the ultra small bore bikes.
Dwight
Quotequote:Originally posted by Chakka
I stumbled across this photo and many more of this bike a few nights back looking at European enduro sites. Any ideas what components it uses? Looks like a custom frame, conical ft hub, but standard MC style gas tank, seat & swingarm. Way Cool!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b60/chakka141/random%20Penton%20Pics/isny07021.jpg
This is a KTM 50 GS ,build by Heinz Brinkmann (sitting on the left).The same Heinz B. who won the ISDT in Italy OVERALL on a 50cc.
His Son Thomas is now riding this bike in the German Classics.
Picture taken in ISNY 07
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/3825/isny20087aaf2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Helmut"Speedy"Clasen
Ontario Canada
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy
2 x Sachs MC-GS 250-7A
1 x Hercules 350-7A 77
2 x Hercules 250-7A 76
2 x Hercules 250-7A 77
Zuendapp 125 GS 72-73
Ktm built only two prototypes of 50 cc but never ktm 50 was sold.
These are the only original ktm 50 bikes (they never were sold):
This bike is in the court of the factory in Mattighofen, I think it was aboout 1971/1972
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6655/197250gsmattighodensxca7.jpg)
(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2553/197250gsmattighofendxboy9.jpg)
In the motorcycles fair of Milan (Italy) in 1973:
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7055/197350gsmotosalonemilanoc2.jpg)
Bernhard Brinkmann built some ktm 50 special bikes, but Brinkmann's ktm 50 bikes aren't original ktm. The ktm are built in Austria and not in Germany!
The Brinkmann's ktm 50 bikes:
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8366/k503co2.jpg)
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3284/k504cl8.jpg)
Penton six days 125 1970
Maurizio,
It is good to hear from you again. You say that only two 50cc machines were built and you have posted a picture of one, this may possibly be the other.
http://gallery.pentonusa.org/gallery/album06/DSC09499
The picture was taken at a display the POG assembled for the KTM dealers annual meeting in the USA.
Can you possibly get the frame and engine serial number from the one you have a picture of? Is the 50cc machine you have pictured still at KTM?
Also, have you ever seen the proto-model Penton or do you know where it is today?
Thank you.
Paul Danik
Back during the Penton era, as the Japanese companies began to build "mini" bikes, (I don't actually know who) somebody from Penton Imports tried to get KTM to build a "mini Penton". KTM did build two different versions of "smaller", but not actually "mini" sized Pentons. The bike in the picture that Paul posted, was one version and is still over here, but the other version, the first one that Maurizio showed, was here too but went back to KTM at some point, though I don't remember when.
The 50 that is still here, is more of a version of the steel tank frame machines and the one that went back to Austria, was a CMF version.
Dane
Hi Paul,
thank you for the kind words, I'm very happy to talk to you again.
I don't know the frame number, I think it's improbable that proto-models have the frame number.
The proto model- Penton or Ktm I think was lost.
Perhaps it's possible that there is still some ktm 50 of
the official Ktm Team. Infact the italian rider Arnaldo Farioli raced on a ktm 50 in the 1965.
In the pics you can see the ktm 50 from the ktm official team (I think 1970):
(http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4125/502iu2.jpg)
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6463/501pq4.jpg)
Penton six days 125 1970
I phoned to Franzkappa, the best italian Ktm expert, he told me that an original ktm 50 is in Italy in the city of Padua.
The bike has regular italian title.
The lucky owner should not ever sell his rare ktm.
Penton six days 125 1970
I'd kill to get my hands on one of those 50's with the MC5 style frame....such a neat bike! Thanks for all the great photos Maurizio. If I ever get proficient at welding maybe I will try and build my own.
Chris
Can anyone tell us what is "wrong" with that last KTM 50 that Maurizio posted? I definitely know that there is something wrong with it.
Dane
Missing exhaust shield?
Doug
No, that's not it.
Dane
Too early for Motoplat ignition?
Ron Carbaugh
Quotequote:Originally posted by dandk
Can anyone tell us what is "wrong" with that last KTM 50 that Maurizio posted? I definitely know that there is something wrong with it.
Dane
The countershaft is exposed which will allow dirt and water to enter the tranmission.
Dwight
Dane ,
The cylinder and head are different. Is it an 80 cc? Dwight it
looks like they plugged the tranny shaft with a brass freeze type plug
John D.
What's wrong with it? It's not sitting in MY garage!
Rocket
The one thing that I was mentioning, is exactly what firstturn pointed out. The Motoplat ignitions that would fit this engine, were not created until the very late 1960's There were Motoplat ignitions made at that time, but they would only fit the larger engines, like the Bultaco's and Ossa's.
The coil that is mounted to this machine, wasn't made until the early 1980's, when Motoplat reversed the polarity of the ignitions, and went back from the "red wire" coils to the black wire again.
This machine is very interesting to me, because actually, this type of machine, (a 100cc not a 50cc) was what showed John Penton that KTM could actually build a true race bike.
In 1969, I spend two months in Mattighofen, "working" (it's in parentheses, because I didn't HAVE to work, but I did) at KTM and lived at Mr. Trunkenpolz' house. I worked in the R&D department doing many different small jobs, but during that time, I got to meet and observe the people who built this bike.
Sigfried (Sigi) Stuhlberger was the chief engine and frame builder guy, and there were other men who built the rest of the bike. The one fellow that I was ablsolutely amazed in watching, was a sheet metal worker, who would take flat sheets of aluminim, and make gas tanks, air boxes and side panels. I don't know if he actually built the original prototype steel tank for the Pentons, but I do have a picture of one of Sigi's 175 motocross machines, that has a very similar tank on it, and I saw that guy built the tank from a flat sheet.
Sigi had the capability of doing aluminum casting as well, and I'll bet that is where the head and cylinder of this machine came from. I know that when I was there, I saw him build heads and cylinders for his 50cc motocross machines. And by the way, I think that year, Sigi won the Austrian Motocross Championship in both the 50 and 175cc classes.
Dane
Dane, Can you tell from the engine bottom end what size it is? We seldom see the 50 to 80 cc motors. Maurizio, I hope you can post things like this for us more offten. I would like very much to learn more about KTm's history and the small bikes we seldom see in this country. Thank you.
John D.
John,
Back then, they didn't have 80cc engines, but they did have 73cc engines, which was the 75 class. I'm pretty sure that this would be either the 50 or 75, but otherwise, I can't tell for sure.
Dane
(http://web.telia.com/~u24808540/th1172.jpg)
When I looked trough my old Swedish motorcyklemagazine's I found this picture of Torsten Hallman and a 50cc KTM at IFMA Show Germany in 1972 [8D]
Hallman said that he was very happy about the new 50cc KTM, because he wanted to sell them for the Swedish junior MX class wich was 50cc at that time.
I don't know if this was a KTM factory bike but I will try to ask Torsten if he remember anything about it and if he sold any 50cc bikes in Sweden.
Mats from Sweden
Hi Dandk,
the ktm 50 in the pics is the official bike of Arnaldo Farioli.
The owner Arnaldo Farioli (very famous italian rider and ktm importer for Italy) replaced the ignition afterwards.
The bike is in the Arnaldo Farioli's garage now.
Maurizio
I found another pic:
(http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8430/914bigrc6.jpg)
Maurizio from Italy
Quotequote:Originally posted by Chakka
I stumbled across this photo and many more of this bike a few nights back looking at European enduro sites. Any ideas what components it uses? Looks like a custom frame, conical ft hub, but standard MC style gas tank, seat & swingarm. Way Cool!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b60/chakka141/random%20Penton%20Pics/isny07021.jpg
Fritz Hagleitner
I have also a picture of a 50 MC on my homepage -
http://members.aon.at/fhaglei1/page_4_17.html
//www.ktm-comet.at
Fritz Hagleitner
I talked to Torsten Hallman about the 50cc bikes that the KTM factory made. And he referred to Sigfried Stuhlberger who would know everything about those bikes.
According to Torsten these bikes were very expensive so only a few bikes were sold in Sweden for the junior MX class.
Mats from Sweden
Mats,
What is Mr. Hallman doing these days? I read his book as a youngster, Mr. Moto-Cross, it made quite an impression on me. I was later able to have him autograph it and I still treasure it very much.
Do you know Sigfried Stuhlberger, or ever visit with him?
Thanks
Paul
I am afraid i don't know what sort of business Mr Hallman runs. I have only met him once or twice on motorcycle meetings. But he's a nice guy and still have an interest for the old bikes and times so you can always ask him about the Penton/KTM's.
I do not know Mr Stuhlberger at all, but Torsten Hallman seemed to know him and the others from the Penton factory very well.
Mr Hallman also told me that he knew about the Penton 40 year anniversary coming up, and was well informed about it.
Mats from Sweden
Mats,
Initially, Torsten was distributing the Penton motorcycles in Sweden and when KTM began to put their own "name" on the motorcycles, he did not want the KTM name on them. He wanted to keep the Penton name on them.
I don't remember where I heard this, but I think it came out of KTM.
Torsten knows Mr. Penton well because he met him when Torsten first came to the US to race motocross over here. At that time, Mr. Penton was the Eastern distributor of the Husqvarna motorcycles.
Dane
Other pics:
(http://www.soloenduro.it/photopost1/data//500/653KTM_50.jpg)
(http://www.soloenduro.it/photopost1/data//500/653dettaglio.jpg)
(http://www.six-days.org/media/ph_ktm/ph_ktm_72_05.jpg)
(http://www.six-days.org/media/ph_ktm/ph_ktm_72_06.jpg)
(http://www.six-days.org/media/ph_ktm/ph_ktm_72_07.jpg)
Gino Perego (Farioli Team rider):
(http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/989/197350gsginoperegopontefu9.jpg)
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5569/197350gsginoperegopossacb4.jpg)
(http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1228/197350gsisdtcekotl0.jpg)
Maurizio from Italy
Ktm 50 factory team, Two Days Exxon race (in Italy, near Bologna), year 1972:
(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8817/ktm502ggesso1972fv8.jpg)
Maurizio from Italy
Just bringing this one up made me think about how much I miss reading Dane's posts/replies.From this one thread alone he imparts a lot of good info.Ride in Peace Dane,Mr.100 you are missed...
Thanks Sixdazed and ditto.
We all miss Dane, Al Born and all of our friends that can no longer share their memories with us. As time passes the memories that make up the motorcycling history continue to become more precious.
Fortunately Todd Huffman has captured hundreds of hours of the offroad history while filming interviews for the John Penton movie. Sigi was one of those interviews and it was so good to see him last fall. After all of these years he is still very special to the history of KTM and to Dad and me.
Have a great evening!
Jack Penton
Thanks Jack-you have a great evening as well.Dane,especially on tech stuff(and the rest of you guys)have a wealth of knowledge so when you guys speak I listen.On another note-if there's any way I can get out to Anaheim 2 i'll bring my cmf 125 mx'er and contact you for some possible bench racing.Later,
Ric