Hi Guy's,
If I put a 100cc top-end on my 72/73 Six Days and showed up with a 125cc Six Day decal on my green gas tank, what kind of trouble should I expect? I do have a 100cc side cover I could use.
I was planning to build a 1972 100cc Sachs to race, but with the new 6-speed rule change, I'd be ready to go pretty quickly (no pun intended).
Finishing 2 moto's might be my biggest challenge.
Thanks, RonW
Well, you wont know until you try, but this is a gray area in my opinion. The rule prohibits any parts from or for a 125, but since the CMF Penton 100 is identical to the 125 other than fiberglass color, the cylinder and the label on the engine cover I dont know how anybody but you would really know. How would they know it wasnt always a Berkshire you happen to have green bodywork on?
Another point that folks are missing is, they DO NOT check that your bike is legal for the class you are going to enter at Tech. They only check rear suspension travel and basic safety items, and sometimes they dont even do all of that as Larry Perkins has noted. The Tech inspectors WILL NOT look at your bike for legality of some specific item or part until one of your competitors protests you.
In the strictest reading of the rule, 125 fiberglass is illegal since it was originally not for the 100 even though other than color its identical. I think you would have to be obviously cheating with something that gave you a performance advantage before you would get a protest, but you never know.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
Ron,
I am not familiar with how ARHMA operates other than what Brian just stated. I know I wouldn't worry about showing up with fiberglass or stickers that do not indicate that my bike is anything, but a 100. Of course the easiest way to prevent this is to just take the 125 part of the sticker and that would be that since anyone can paint a cover or tank any color they want. Also, replacement covers are white does that mean it is a Mint 400.
As far as making sure the engine is a legal 100 it is just 4 head bolts and one can measure the bore and stroke. I hope the above is a fair statement since I do not build bikes for this organization.
Ron Carbaugh
Ron C. is right. As long as your bike truly is a 100cc that is what is really important. It would take a really petty person to protest you on bodywork, so I say slap that 100cc top end on your bike and go for it.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
From my interpretation of the posts on the Yahoo Hodaka group, they have agreed that placing a 100cc motor in 125 model 97 Super Combat is allowed. This was based on the fact that the 125 model 97 Super Combat is basically the same as the 100 model 98 Super Rat except for the top end. With this known we would all have to agree that the same exchange is allowed on a Penton.
John J Slivka
It might be a good idea to take a spare head gasket and torque wrench with you folks.
It's cheap insurance in case you do have to remove the head.
That will make it a quick and painless thing to do.
John D.
Anyone that protests a bike must file the protest in writing and for an internal engine two stroke protest, give a $100 protest fee. If the protest is upheld the person gets his/her $100 back, if the protest is denied the tech inspector disperses the fee at his/her discretion. I would assume (not always a good idea) that the person that got protested and won would receive some of the protest funds to offset gasket/parts costs.
But, I think Ron C. and John are right, its only 4 head bolts and a head gasket to measure bore and stroke so it would be smart to have a spare just in case.
Brian
'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)
Hi Guy's,
Thanks for all the input.
I won't be able to make Arizona, but I'm hoping to make Barona, CA FEB 16. I'll be sure to let everyone know what happens.
I'm to proud of my paint job to repaint it. I'll put some masking tape over the 125cc part.
Fortunately I have Circle F pipe that comes off pretty easy if somebody protest, the stock Penton pipe is a bear to remove.
Why would anyone protest a sweep rider anyway? LOL You desert guys know what I'm talking about.
Thanks again, RonW
I don't wrench on those bikes as much as I used to, but wouldn't the head come off without taking off the pipe?
Paul
Paul,
It HAS been too long.:D I don't think much of anything can be done with the stock pipe on. It takes an act of congress, rotating the carb, and most of the time, removing the right shock to get the pipe off. Now with the down pipe you are right.
Larry P
Getting the stock pipe off of a Sachs powered Penton is not that bad in my opinion.
Remove ALL of the rubber pipe mounts from the pipe AND frame. Once you have worked the pipe past the exhaust flange on the cylinder, you will need to rotate the pipe almost 180 degrees and slowly work the pipe forward as you continue to do a bit of rotating as needed to get the pipe out past the airbox.
I remember one time at the sixdays, in a matter of minutes while hiding behind an old chicken coup, we had the pipe, cylinder and head off, oops, maybe I shouldn't tell that story...[8D]
Hope this helps,
Paul
Mine is going to be Jackpiner Blue [^]
You can see it at the bottom left of page 6 of the 2007 6th annual meeting at the AMA museum. From the Home page look in the photo gallery.
Dennis Jones
Go ahead and tell it Paul. It would be interesting and the Statute of Limitations is up by now.:D
Larry P
Paul,
I've fought it a couple times and had to loosen the pipe so I could get to the head bolts, then remove the head to get the pipe off.
I questioned this on the board awhile back and I believe someone suggested I may be trying to use a 72 pipe on a 73 bike?
I'm not a Penton purist, I built it to ride, so I'll keep the Circle F pipe on it and keep what's left of my hair a little longer.
RonW
Ron,
The main thing is that you will be out their riding and enjoying your Penton Sportcycle, my hat is off to all of you guys who ride and race you bikes just for the shear joy of it. I hope than many more follow your lead and help to fill the starting line of this exciting class at each event.
Good luck,
Paul
As far as getting the head off without taking the pipe off that is a yes no answer. I have had bikes that I had to loosen the pipe to get the head off and others I could get the head off without touching the pipe(litterally). In other words all of these bikes are different. If you want to be able to take the head off without moving the pipe just shave some of the head fins and it should come off.
I agree with Paul on removing the pipe. The 180 degree twist works, but you have to just not get upset. I also made some changes on my old 100 so that I didn't use springs on the front header so the pipe came off fast.....I know I will hear from Master Doug on this one. You know it is a Texas thing. We work on tractors and trucks...and a few Pentons.
Ron Carbaugh
Hello, In the spirit of vintage racing, it would be a good thing to proudly represent the Penton Berkshire as it was sold, that is in it's red color scheme. I have ALWAYS run legal with my Penton Berkshires, and have been repeatedly protested (by the same person). It would be unfair to race a Penton Berkshire (or any other motorcycle) in it's red color scheme with a 125 displacement or larger. So let's all have FUN and play fair. If you do not want to paint your green Six-Days tank red, you might consider purchasing a second tank and painting it red. I wonder how good a green tank could look if you just applied red adhesive side panels to your tank? At least it would not look green! joe
Another point that folks are missing is, they DO NOT check that your bike is legal for the class you are going to enter at Tech. They only check rear suspension travel and basic safety items, and sometimes they dont even do all of that as Larry Perkins has noted. The Tech inspectors WILL NOT look at your bike for legality of some specific item or part until one of your competitors protests you.
Brian.
Brian, while I have the greatest respect for your knowledgee of the various rules,I think you were a little off base here. The Tech Inspectors do in fact check suspension travel and safety items, but they aso look at other components also. While it is not applicable in the Sportsman 100 class, I would advise you to not show up with a reed cage on a classic class bike, or to show up with a hydulic assisted clutch on any vintage bike. They WILL catch these items. The tech inspectors, all volunteers, do miss a few items. They also depend on all of us to have a bit of honesty and integrity in preparing out bikes. As for measuring displacement,I have only seen it done once, but I don't hang around tech inspection too much.
Bill Ryburn
I've experienced that I received a fairly complete initial inspection. The following races the (same) inspectors know the machine and typically have just checked to make sure the front end was nice and tight. I wouldn't expect any further scrutiny unless my results drastically changed...100cc class and first tech inspection 2010 here I come!! [^]
(http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae59/CheneySachs/Penton2-2-10002.jpg)
Bill,
I phrased that poorly. The tech inspectors do indeed note problems with class legality when doing tech inspection, but they have no power within the rules to stop you from racing the class you have entered. Even if you have a bike with a reed cage in Classic, the competitors of that class must file an official protest in writing with the protest fee before you would be prevented from getting points in the class. The tech inspectors can not make any official ruling until a protest has been filed. A perfect illustration of this is when people race XR200s in PV Open. It is expressly forbidden to ride an under 250cc bike in PV Open by the rule book, but it happened 3-4 times last year. No competitor filed a protest so the scores were allowed to stand.
I'm not criticizing the tech inspectors, just commenting on the fact that as the rulebook is written it is not their responsibility to rule on class legality during tech inspection.
Brian
'72 Berkshire
Dale, Great looking Berkshire, and great example of what a 1974 Penton Berkshire should look like racing in the 100 class. Is this a new bike which you have built recently? Looking forward to seeing you and your bikes at the races. joe
Let's say the Berkshire project is now a mostly "personalized" work in progress. Those eagle eyes out there probably know it's origin. The 100cc stickers to go back onto tank yet. If I might chime in on the standard exhaust. I tried for about an hour to figure out how to mount the standard exhaust. The head and pipe was not on when I picked it up. Did a fine job of scratching up the newly painted frame until I discovered the exhaust flange needed to come off first and perfecting the corkscrew technique. A quick call and check to Kevin at Circle F resulted! With luck will see some of you at the POG meeting this weekend. Debut race is slated to be Diamond Don's.
Dale I have some 100cc tank stickers. Are you going to the meeting Saturday? Email me
[email protected] Later Gary
hey gary if he not going i am and he lives in brighton and i am in belleville only 30 minutes away if this helps dave when in doubt gas it
One of my most favorite Pentons was a 1972 Penton. I will describe the condition which it was in when I purchased it used (in about 1975). Broken rear hub, broken main engine mount, not running, green tank, Sachs 6A 100cc engine, and general really whipped out condition. Since I already had a really nice 1974 Penton Berkshire set up for MX, I decided to set this one up for Hare Scrambles. Cut handle bars to 30", modified rear suspention to layed down position with KONI shocks, new rod, replaced rear hub, replaced MOTOPLAT, and fixed everything else which was broken. The point is, I raced this old GREEN-tanked penton in the 100 class with no objections "back in the day". But then, it was GREEN and 100cc when I bought it!