Tom Penton was in Amherst for the 10/2/08 POG meeting. While there, he described his all-time favorite Penton motorcycle. Bet you can't guess what it is. Hint: They were hand assembled, and Tom says only between two and four were ever put together. For a video, click on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgT5qLiKfAc
Can you help Tom to locate one of these bikes? He would like to own one. By his recollection, one went to Jim Hollander, and one to Marcia McDonald.
Ted,
You made my day with this post.
We did something like this in 2002. Well we made a poor attempt at it chuckle chuckle! We had to use slightly different parts because of pistons that were available at the time.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1134/1371263838_65f00f6d3c_o.jpg)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1057/1371263788_70fb1ee3b6_o.jpg)
6 years later with 2 added engine mod's and converting the 73 frame to 75 Sachs 6-Day specs we think we are finaly finished.
I hope Tom can find one of the bikes. They are a real treat to ride in the woods.
John D.
Priceless Ted. John beautiful job on the Sachs 175.
Ron Carbaugh
What is it, can't get the photos!
Kip, be sure to log on to your internet access using Microsoft Explorer. I was pulling my hair out, trying to figure why photos would not come up, and it turned out they were being blocked by the server.
Ron,
You , Martjin , Doug , Larry Perkins , Leo , Speedy ,Bob W. , Phil Schloss ,Several of the POG guys that gave me parts to modify like the rear brake stay, Al B. , Jake Fisher , Barry Higgins ,Falicon , a local welder and a guy from Australia ( can't remember his name ) , All helped me do this over time. Here are 2 pictures from last years RR with the Lay down rear shocks.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/2947814130_00cf6d0d22_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3224/2947813972_73f03e35d1_o.jpg)
The pictures are big sorry but its the only way you can get a good look at the frame and engine.
This fall we added the longer 35 mm forks ( 200 mm travel ) to help with the handling. Tested it at Rick G's 2 day ride ( several miles of one track with 8 to 18 inch whoops ,lined by handle bar width trees) in Sept and the bike handles great.
I Hope someone can find one of the few that were built. It would nice to see Tom P on it at one of the RR's. I would very much like to get a close look at one. I know they did a much better job than i did.
Thanks again to every one that helped me out with it. Guys please beat the bushes and see if one can be found.
John D.
I don't know if John has mentioned it before, but he has been freaking out the Dual-Sport event riders down in Florida with the performance of his Penton. Through a mutual friend, who lives in FLA and is big into the D-S events, I kept hearing about "this guy on an old Penton, who goes really, really well". Apparently, they can't believe that someone can keep pace with their modern, big-bore, D-S bikes, with a 35 year-old, small displacement, 2-stroker. Way to go, John! Love the bike.
John,
You are the one to be congratulated as you have stuck with this project. Great pictures and I love the swingarm [8D].
Ron Carbaugh
It would appear that while the nature these bikes is known, their present locations are not. For a start, does anyone know how to contact Marcia McDonald or Jim Hollander?
I think Jeff DeBell will know how to get in touch with Marcia.
Larry P
Here is what the engine looked like. Its not a good photo but it is the only one i have of one. The engine worked well enough that Monark used it in European enduro's and ISDT/E till the early 80's?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3176/2958488358_c0bb3b583f_o.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3249/2957646661_674b6e832a_o.jpg)
The 7 cylinder fins and the exhaust head pipe size are the give a ways.
John D.
Thanks for the info, Larry and John. Larry, do you know how to get in touch with Jeff?
Jeff posts as a member here as Jeff D. If you can not reach him through here let me know and I can dig up my contact info. He is a Fireman up KC MO way, a great guy, and has an eye turning spouse. No insult only major compliment Jeff!:D
Larry P
[email protected] to find Jeff Debell. Ask him about Rokon riding.
Larry-someday I have to get that Petty headlight from you.
Murph
Marcia should be at the Reunion Ride so I'll have to try to remember to ask her about the 175/125. Don Cutler recently rebuilt a Penton for her, so perhaps this is the bike? I'll see what they have to say.
And I have to agree with Larry about my bride...she sure caught my eye! I tell folks even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then. I got lucky!
Jeff DeBell
Thanks very much for jumping in, Jeff and Joe. It would be so great to have Tom Penton re-involved with Penton motorcycles, and locating one of these bikes would be a great start. Please keep us posted on anything you may find out.
Here's another great shot of John and his Sachs 175 hybrid. John, do you care to make any comments on the shot, and where the bike was at in its developement at the time the picture was taken?
(//)http://www.pentonusa.org/photos/2003/ISDT/riders/regviews/dsc04935v.jpg
Ted,
Thanks for posting the video interview of Tom Penton while he was in Amherst and attended his very first POG meeting.
For those of you who have never been to the POG's club house (KTM's meeting room), the video was taken at the entrance to the meeting room. If you pay attention during the video you will see different people coming and going in the background (Ed Youngblood, John Penton, Donna Penton, Paul Danik, etc). The POG is so blessed to have use of this excellent facility to use for our meetings. It is equipped with the latest state of the art equipment (computer, DVD, projector, etc) which enables us to show DVD's, Power Point presentations, and even access the internet. Plus what is really cool is having 4 of KTM's bikes on display in the room for us to look at before and after our meetings.
Does anyone know of any other club that gets use the facilities of their "brand" and call it "home"? Think about it!
Alan Buehner
Great to hear from you, Al. Nice of you to share some additional, background info in support of the video.
For you POG'ers who may not be aware, Al Buehner one of the handful of individuals who is responsible for much of the current "Penton Structure".
Besides investing heavily in support of Penton parts, Al is a founder of the Penton Owners Group, a past POG president, current POG treasurer, continual proponent and advocate of all things Penton, editor of the POG newsletter - Still Keeping Track, and a tireless supporter of the Penton Future Project.
From his humble background of a Penton motorcycle owner, rider, and racer, Al has done as much as anyone in our organization to develop and maintain the tremendous support and following of Penton motorcycles. Thanks, Al, for all that you have done and continue to do.
I have it on very good authority (Don Cutler) that Marcia's 175/125 will be at the Reunion Ride next week.
Jeff DeBell
Jeff , Ted ,
Could some one maybe take a few pictures of the bike. With some close ups of the engine and frame?
I am sorry we wont be their. The Doc says 3 to 4 more weeks before i can ride and i am the worlds worst spectator.[B)]
John D.
John,
I will take a bunch of pictures. Any part of the bike in particular you want close up shots of?
Brian
'73 Berkshire Team d-Con
//www.d-conproducts.com America's #1 Rodent Control Brand
Brian ,
Thank you. Yes . Think of it as a one off custom. Carb mounting and clearances , exhaust mounts and directional changes. The block where the cylinder touches (the base gasket area) . I played with a worn out cylinder once ,to see how it might fit the B cases. I bet they had to deck the cases where the base gasket fits. The rear shock setup..
You get the idea. Think , you are going to build one and you will know where to do a close up.
You are a blessing!
John D.
John,
OK, that is what I figured, but I wanted to ask. I am still kicking the idea around of building one of these someday so I will take lots of pictures.
Brian
'73 Berkshire Team d-Con
//www.d-conproducts.com America's #1 Rodent Control Brand
I have it from a very reliable source that the Tom Penton motorcycle of which we speak was a 1976 Penton with a 175 KTM silver motor.It was more than likley in a 1976 125 frame.
Thomas Carmichael
1970 125 Six Day
1976 250 Hare Scrambler
Thomas,
I have an NOS early 76 125 frame like that. Perhaps the beginning of a bike for Tom?
Larry P
Quotequote:Originally posted by tmc3c
I have it from a very reliable sorce that the Tom Penton motorcycle of which we speak was a 1976 Penton with a 175 KTM silver motor.It was more than likley in a 1976 125 frame.
In that video Tom is very clear that it is a Sachs bottom end so it would have to have been '75 right? Were there any Sachs bikes in '76?
Brian
'73 Berkshire Team d-Con
//www.d-conproducts.com America's #1 Rodent Control Brand
My sorce says it is a KTM motor and not a Sachs motor or does it have a iron barrel cylinder.Stock 175 KTM motor in 125 frame. Marcia has never owned a sach bottom end/iron barrel bike.This bike will be in Tulsa.
Thomas Carmichael
1970 125 Six Day
1976 250 Hare Scrambler
Brian ,
We have a friend ( Jimmy Thornton member of the old Polish Pathfinders) , an old dealer here in Lake City that knew Tom. He told me when he saw my bike that Tom had showed him one like it in the early 70's. He may have even gotten a test ride because he was cautioned about using discretion when shifting. I think there may have been more than one type of special that was tried and Tom Liked.
John D.
OK, she must not have had one of those bikes then. No telling what time frame he is talking about I guess.
Brian
'73 Berkshire Team d-Con
//www.d-conproducts.com America's #1 Rodent Control Brand
Tom Carmichael is correct. Just got word from Donald that this is a 76 175, however it is an ex-Tom bike that Marcia got from him and not a production piece....but it is not the 125/175 that Tom is seeking.
Sorry to burst the bubble of excitement. Hopefully one of the originals will turn up yet.
Jeff DeBell
Brian. Folks would look at 125/175 and not know unless they looked very close.
The 175 pipe would have a similar end piece as the 73 and up 125's. The D type cylinder used the 28 mm carb and it looks almost identical to a 30 mm Bing.
Rick G. has a Sachs 175/6 in a 74 Six-Day frame he found and after several calls was told it must have been one of the few special types that were built and evaluated. That one looks just like a D engine Sachs 125 Six-Day except for the exhaust header size.
The real advantages Tom went into , the frame is different on the 100/125's and a little lighter. There is a 20 + lb difference in engine weight though and thats a biggie. The crank on the 125 B engine is 2 1/2 lb lighter than a KTM 175 crank. Now that's one place you would really notice a difference when you got it in the woods.
John D.
Folks,
Having been involved with the Penton R&D/Imports machine shop since 1972, I have a lot of knowledge of engine projects. And I do not remember ever working or seeing a Sachs 175 being built after the KTM 175 came out in '72.
Dane
Maybe he was thinking about the 152cc iron cylinder mod? But he did say that the 125 frame was different than the bigger frame so that sounds like the CMF era not a Steel Tanker. The mystery deepens!
Brian
'73 Berkshire Team d-Con
//www.d-conproducts.com America's #1 Rodent Control Brand
Yes it does Brian chuckle chuckle!
Dane did you see one that may have been built before the 72 run of KTM's 175 engine bikes?
That would fit with what Jimmy told me. Late 71 time frame before the CMF was on dealers floors. I would think you folks had the CMF bikes and were riding them before we had them on the floor. His memory is not much better than mine though:)
John D.
Dane,
Per Tom Penton's recollection, several of these bikes were put together "right after he got out of the Air Force". Tom seemed to think it was "around '74 or '75". I don't have a reference handy for what years Tom served in the AF, but that is what he recalled right off the top of his head. Just to review what Tom said, "The bikes were CMF Six-Days, with forward-mounted shocks, the Sachs bottom end, and KTM 175 piston, jug, and head".
John,
Can you tell us who "Rick G." is? Is his bike possibly one of the originals? Is it complete, running, etc?
The Admiral, Rick Grant.
Brian
'73 Berkshire Team d-Con
//www.d-conproducts.com America's #1 Rodent Control Brand
Ted ,
It is complete , we didn't try and start it, I am not sure where he found it but it has from all indications a a true Sachs 175/6 engine with a modified 6 day 125 head. The pipe looked like a 72-75 type 175 Jackpiner pipe. the head pipe diameter was the give away. It was in the later lay down type frame I " think " ( its been a year }. Rick did some calling and like I said, was told it must have been one that was put together for evaluation. It looked like it rolled off the assembly line. Whoever did it did a first class job.
From listening to Tom in the vid. I don't think it was the bike he was talking about. The Sachs 175 was an A type crank with a 60 mm stroke and bore.
Again, I don't remember doing any 175's after the KTM 175 was in existence. I do remember that there were some Sach's 175's before the KTM engine came out because JP wanted a 175 before KTM got into the manufacturing. Now, before the summer of 72, I wasn't working full time for Uncle Ted in the machine shop, because I was still in college. Maybe there was something being done before I got home that summer.
Dane
Thanks Dane,
That fits what Jimmy told me. It would make sense to play with one. Good way to evaluate cylinder porting and pipes .
And you folks could probably get cylinders before you could get a complete bike.
John D.
Ted, You could follow up on a lead I heard Tom say in the video. He mentioned something about Jim Hollander receiving one of the bikes.
What does'nt match up though is, Tom said it might have been around '74 or '75 - and Jim Hollander was'nt riding a Penton in '74 or '75. Jim Hollander's POG forum user name is Hotgrips.
Just a thought.....
BobW
The 1972 175 KTM motor was ridden in the 1971 ISDT "Isle of Man" and Dick Burleson and Lars Larrson rode these bikes.Tom was in the Air Force in 71 and rode the ISDT.Then couldn't ride the 72 ISDT because it was in Czech.From all of the pic's with him on a 175 bike we don't see him on a 175 bike till after the 1973 ISDT.The Source which was at most of these events said none of these bikes were Sach's bottomed end bikes.Time lines must be crossing and we should get Jack in on this.Dane is spot on in this matter.The sorce says this is a 152 Sach's that we are talking of.Sach's never made a 175 for a Penton but Hercules did which was Sach's.
Thomas Carmichael
1970 125 Six Day
1976 250 Hare Scrambler
If someone has the book from the Mass ISDT it might be worth comparing the photos to the rider numbers and cc class entries. I will do so when I get it back (my copy is on loan). I think there could be a few unusual set-ups shown. Hope it isn't a bum steer.
I am not that familiar with all the Penton models. I do know of a Steel-Tanker 175 Jackpiner, an example of which is owned by Paul Danik. It has a blue tank. Possibly that is the one which displaces 152cc. But, it is all-Sachs. Tom Penton is specifically referencing a mixing of Sachs bottom end and KTM top end. Regarding the 175 KTM jug and head used in the hand-assembled bikes he created, Tom describes them as black, in color. Is it not true that only the earliest 175 and 250 KTM motors were painted black? However, Tom also references the "first longer-travel rear suspension", which would have been 74/75.
Note that in the video, Tom also references a second test-bike, or set of bikes, which consisted of a full, 175 KTM motor, in a 125 frame.
Let's see what Jim Hollander may have to say, if he can be reached.
I tried sending an e-mail to Jim Hollander, using the e-mail address listed in his Member profile, but it is not valid. Does anyone know how to reach Jim?
Did any news of the whereabouts of these bikes come out of the ISDT RR?
Update: I did get in touch with Jim Hollander, but Jim says Tom must have him mixed up with someone else. Jim started riding Rokons in '73, and never had one of the bikes Tom describes. More detective work is needed!
Ted,
Marcia was riding a complete KTM engine Penton at the RR event in Tulsa. Now whether it was Tom's or not, I don't know. I forgot to ask her about it.
Dane
Thanks, Dane. However, if that was one of the originals, it has been altered. Too bad Tom never took pictures or recorded the serial numbers of, these Sachs bottom-end/KTM 175 top-end hybrids.
Ted ,
You could try talking to Jimmy Thornton , (
[email protected] ).
He told me he saw the bike ( at least one ) and may have ridden it.
John D.
The bike Marcia had at the Reunion was a '76 model, orange tank GS. Don Cutler had a hand in getting it back into running condition after several years of sitting idle, and it performed flawlessly for Marcia all weekend. She topped her class with a gold on it....typical Penton results! The bike is supposedly an ex-Tom bike, but it is certainly not the 125/175 of which he spoke of in the interview. Two seperate animals.
Jeff DeBell
Thanks for the confirmation, Jeff. At least that gives us one more idea of where NOT to look.
Thanks also to John for the tip about Jimmy Thornton. I've sent an e-mail to Jimmy, to see what he might know.
The bike Marcia had at the Reunion was a '76 model, orange tank GS. Don Cutler had a hand in getting it back into running condition after several years of sitting idle, and it performed flawlessly for Marcia all weekend. She topped her class with a gold on it....typical Penton results! The bike is supposedly an ex-Tom bike, but it is certainly not the 125/175 of which he spoke of in the interview. Two seperate animals.
Jeff DeBell
Thanks for the confirmation, Jeff. At least that gives us one more idea of where NOT to look.
Thanks also to John for the tip about Jimmy Thornton. I've sent an e-mail to Jimmy, to see what he might know.
Ted,
I was looking through old posts for some D cylinder info and found this
(http://www.pentonusa.org/images/homepage/homepage_031007_large.jpg)
It was from post titled Home Page Photo
I dont think this will help but it looks like the Bike Tom was talking about.
John D.
Neat bike John, looks pretty easy to reproduce!
Kip,
The big part is getting the cylinder to case height right and mating the cases and cylinder .
After that is pretty much bolt on stock parts. 72-75 cylinder and head, 72-73 pipe and carb.
12 spring clutch , add a roller bearing in place of the 6202 main and play with the air boot and intake manifold. If you use the A engine you would want the last version 6 A type cases because they have enough meat cast in the transfer area to be opened up with out a lot of welding. 6B cases would work and may have been what Tom had. The B crank would be 1& 1/2 lbs lighter than the A. That engine would find the pipe quick [:p].
Mine was a little more trouble because the cylinder base was a lot different from the 72-75 175 cylinder. The 72-73 pipe had to be modified to fit the newer cylinder. The Lectron needed a better angle and more clearance so we had to make an intake manifold up.
I'm not the sharpest tack in the box so it took me a lot of try's on some things to get the parts to play well together. When i roll the garage door open I still catch them fighting every now and then [:I]
It would have been a lot easier if we lived with in driving distance of Forest chuckle chuckle!
John D.
Thanks so much for providing the image, John. That thing is gorgeous! Sure wish we could get Tom to check out and comment on this info. Hey Jack - could you give Tom a buzz on this? I've tried e-mailing him, but got no response.
Back to that picture, wonder if someone would be willing to build some stands like the one holding that 125/175 hybrid up. What a beau-ti-ful setup.