United we stand, divided we fall.
Pre-entries: Cross Country / Hare Scrambles
2009 VMD 116
2009 Windham 53
2008 VMD/Ahrma 185 (first year)
2007 VMD/Ahrma no CC
Pre-entries: Vintage MX
2009 VMD 173
2009 Medina 130
2008 VMD/Ahrma 447
2007 VMD/Ahrma 489
In a heads-up comparison of racer numbers for 2009, AMA beats AHRMA. However, compared to 2008 & 2007, VMD at Mid-O is pretty weak this year. Comparing some of the VMD VMX classes 2007 vs 2008 vs 2009 below:
Class: 2007, 2008, 2009
100: n/a, 26 (first year), 12
125: 62, 51, 20 (all 125s, AMA does not offer Classic)
+50: 93, 70, 26
(2007 life was good)
(2008 gasoline was 4 bucks a gallon)
(2009 Obama stimulus package, Rob AMA & Rob Iannucci, AHRMA exec committee)
Just for grins, let's compare VMX at Diamond Don vs VMD (AMA) vs Median (AHRMA)this year (pre-entry):
Diamond Don, 264
VMD, 173
Medina 130
A good promoter generates more interest and racer participation than either of the Ohio AMA or AHRMA events. And when you consider the vintage rider population centers; Ohio vs. Jefferson TX, just goes to show who knows what they are doing.
Looking to the future, the AMA does not give a hoot about Vintage Racing long term. If the AMA continues to run VMD without AHRMA participation, then as a National racing venue VMD will become more and more a side-show. Even with the promise of an AMA Grand National Championship award, less than half of 2008 pre-entries bothered to participate. SAD. Change at AMA and AHRMA is needed, and it is needed now! (Of course, if somebody could find out what Rob I. really wants ... oh wait, Rob AMA already did and it did not include Vintage Racers)
Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN
Stay on the soapbox Ernie, You're doing a good job!
This is the first time in 14 years that I am not already at VMD on a Thursday afternoon. I just couldn't bring myself to do it :(
Dennis Jones
Road Race entries are 40% of last year (or down 60%)
VMX is 38% of last year (or down 62%)
PVMX is 25% of last year (or down 75%)
But on the up side, you get an AMA #1 plate for a race that is smaller than some regionals I've been too so thats nice.
Brian
'72 Berkshire
i'm a little disappointed to see that the numbers of the CC entrants are that much higher for the vmd race than the windham race. jim kuhns, my layout partner, looked at the course at mid-ohio this evening. he thinks that it is about a mile shorter than last year. which would make it about 2.6 miles. after the effort we put in to the inaugaral race last year, its a bitter pill to swallow to watch someone else put the course together following our main pathways. one of the things that i pride myself in, when laying out a course for the ahrma races, is that i consider the skill level of both the riders and the equipment of bygone years and i try make sure that the novices can have as much fun as the experts.i'm not sure that that same logic applies to someone unfamiliar with the vintage/post-vintage nuances. i hope that all the riders have a good time tommorow and hopefully that more of them will come out for some more ahrma CC's as well. i think that i'm done laying out courses for this year unless i can find a way to get the time to get down to barber to help lamberth out there. between windham and smith road, it was a great weekend. i'll try to look up a lot of you guys up at the POG tent at vmd. chi jer
i was at mid ohio to go to the swap meet, did not ride. the riders i talk to did not like the course much, i was hopeing the numbers would be down,the c.c. at windham was great.but it was on a friday.the numbers are always down for friday races. i know it had to be that way this year. kelly owner of jeep skool would like a 2 day next year in sure the numbers will be a lot higher.is there any one out there that knows of a nice greeves for sale?thanks
dennis l.brown
The races were great and it will be cool for many like myself to get an AMA number one plate in Vegas at the AMA banquet. Those that chose not to race in protest only hurt themselves in my opinion. I went to the AHRMA National the week before and the AMA VMD event and enjoyed both. Both parties have some good things and a blend would be even better. I am reminded of Ray Kroc the founder of McDonalds saying-No one of us is as smart as all of us. VMD was as fun as always and enjoyed seeing all the POG people. The one observation from racing this event is that AMA has upped the profile of Vintage with the number one plates awarded at the AMA banquet and with the crowning of a Grand National Champion. I also think it is a plus that some youth racers got to experience Vintage racing. Just my spin after attending.
Larry P
Jerry,
From the starting line back to the scoring barrels - one lap - 2.5 miles on my trip odometer.
Easily shorter than last year, and thank goodness the rain waited until Saturday. The course was borderline in a few spots for the vintage classes, and the rain would have made it extremely difficult.
Bob McCullough
Sorry, but a Nat'l Championship earned in one race is a Nat'l Championship in name only. Congrats on your race win as you deserve it, but the AMA is a bit of a joke at this point. Who are they trying to fool ?
IMO,
Dwight,
Thanks for the Congrats and you are kind even in disagreement as always. However, many sports have one day National and World Championships and though they are a different format they are just as valuable and cherished. My World Championship in bicycling was a 30 second race and though it may not seem like a big deal to you I have in my livingroom a Sterling Silver Cup that says I was the first Cruiser World BMX Champion and in the UCI books it says the same. The Superbowl is one day and it still seems to be a big deal. None the less of opinions on how much a championship these were it earned a AMA number one plate just like Bubba and others will get in Vegas and it will have our names on them and we will be the first AMA Vintage National Champions. It has taken this sport to a new level and there were a handful of Factory riders and a couple of Supercross riders there trying to win which is another level of participant also. I am glad for the changes and sure do dig the cool hat the AMA gave me Saturday that says National Champion on it. I did not have to wait over a year to get it like my last AHRMA Championship jacket either. As I said before, though, AMA and AHRMA both have good ideas and a blending of them would be great. AHRMA did have an emicery there perhaps looking for healing middle ground. They both are representing the vintage sport now and we should do all we can do to look for its advancement.
Larry P
So does that mean when I won a National Enduro Championship for a class,it is in name only? That is only a one day event. I enjoy racing dosen't matter who puts it on. I did notice that pre-enter price was 45.00, post-entery 50.00. If you race Friday or Saturday you could race a second class for 35.00. If you pre-entered for a second day and did not want to race, you received your money back, you wouldn't get it back from AHRMA. I will support both,so I can ride more. Just my two cents Later Gary
We attended the flat track racing Friday night. One of the features was a restored racer of Dick Mann's which lapped the track a couple of times. The person responsible for the showing and restoration was Robert Iannucci of Team Oboslete who also had displays in a couple of other areas. He came up to the stage to talk and I was amused when he discussed how he wanted to help grow the sport of vintage racing. This from the person who has done his best to tear a portion of the sport apart. I would hope the AMA is not resting it's success on the shoulders of this individual.
Quotequote:Originally posted by Dale Fisher
We attended the flat track racing Friday night. One of the features was a restored racer of Dick Mann's which lapped the track a couple of times. The person responsible for the showing and restoration was Robert Iannucci of Team Oboslete who also had displays in a couple of other areas. He came up to the stage to talk and I was amused when he discussed how he wanted to help grow the sport of vintage racing. This from the person who has done his best to tear a portion of the sport apart. I would hope the AMA is not resting it's success on the shoulders of this individual.
You know they are. Sad but true.
Quotequote:Originally posted by G Ellis
So does that mean when I won a National Enduro Championship for a class,it is in name only? That is only a one day event.
Later Gary
Gary, If you won a Nat'l Enduro Class Championship you had to race more than one event. Nobody said anything against one day events. But a true nat'l championship is a series of events. I am proud for Larry as he is a good friend and a great competitor. BUT, it is the AMA who cheapens the # 1 plate by putting it all on one event and calls it THE Nat'l Championship. Sort of how the AMA selects the ISDE team these days too. One or two events and they send these riders to the Olympics of Motorcycling. I remember when the ISDT Qualifier series was 8 events and was more important than the Nat'l Enduros and it was a true championship that actually trained riders for the ISDT. Do you know of any Nat'l Champions that only have 1 event to attend ? I am bitching about the AMA and nobody else.
ANYWAY, Congrats again to Larry.
Dale,
Great post and I hope a lot of people reading it understand the background of this guy.
"We attended the flat track racing Friday night. One of the features was a restored racer of Dick Mann's which lapped the track a couple of times. The person responsible for the showing and restoration was Robert Iannucci of Team Oboslete who also had displays in a couple of other areas. He came up to the stage to talk and I was amused when he discussed how he wanted to help grow the sport of vintage racing. This from the person who has done his best to tear a portion of the sport apart. I would hope the AMA is not resting it's success on the shoulders of this individual."
Ron Carbaugh
Congratulations Larry! A win is a win. Wins don't just happen. It takes skill, determination, strategy, perseverance, preparation and sometimes luck. In addition to your award, I hope AMA gives you some travel money and treats you like a Champion in Las Vegas. They should.
Larry wrote:
"Those that chose not to race in protest only hurt themselves in my opinion."
Your right, it did HURT me and many others like me who chose to skip Mid-O this year. I didn't mind missing the racing because I've had success (and failure) there before. But it did HURT to miss visiting with POG members, some of whom I've never met in person. It HURT not to be able to stroll through the swap meet. It HURT to miss wishing Happy Birthday to Mr. Penton and Jack. By choice, I set out this year just like 60% of the other AHRMA racers who disapprove of Mr. Iannucci and Mr. Dingman's actions. Racing during VMD at Mid-Ohio has always been a side-show. By comparison, the 2009 AMA Grand National Championship was a small side-show. Mr. Iannucci's AMA has acted like the eight grade bully on the kindergarten playground. I'll not be part of it.
Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN
Ernie,
You are a good guy in my book and a man of principles. As my Grandpa used to say, "You have a place at my campfire anytime." I respect your sticking to your guns for principle even if I don't totally agree with the outlook. I am glad you are in the POG and sorry you did not come. Hopefully we will see a blend of ideas in the future and things will grow.
Larry P
I actually agree with Larry and Dwight. Personally, I dont think a one day event should be a National Champion, but it is not Larry's fault that the AMA gives #1 plates for a one day event, the AMA set the rules. Larry won and deserves the win, end of story.
There are other weekend/single day National Championships too, so this is not the only one. For example Loretta Lynn's for MX and the Jet Ski National Champions for everything except Pros are a one weekend event at Lake Havasu. Now, both of those you have to qualify out of your home region to be allowed to go, but still, they are one day/weekend events that name a National Champion.
Brian
'72 Berkshire
Does anybody know how many signed up but didn't actually race at VMD. I know there were quite a few like that. Personally, I went for the swap meet and to see people I don't get to see too often. Unfortunately, Windham placed right before Mid-Ohio was not exactly good timing. I couldn't afford to go to both although I'm sure Jerry did a fine job on the course,as usual, at Windham. The Mid-Ohio course finished the year for Jim Foster since he broke his tibia in three places. He finally made it home today and probably will need a new knee because of it.
Lew Mayer
Since this is only my second race outing in 34 years I certainly don't know all the details of the AMA/AHRMA dispute. But as a newbee to the Vintage Days I must say I had a great time. It was an honor to attend Mr. Penton's birthday party and meet the POG members that I had only read about.
My winning the #1 plate was quite a challenge, to put in 6 laps in one hour at 62 years of age is something I can be proud of. Even if the Championship is in name only (in some opinions) it will still be a cherished award.
Hopefully, these two sanctions can come together and make this event even better in the future. If not, I will just go race and have a good time at both AMA and AHRMA events.
Jerry C.
Jerry,
Great attitude! It was nice to meet you and Congratulations on your number one plate. Regardless of what others think you are an AMA National Champion as it is in the books and like I was told in the Astrodome many years ago it is FOREVER. Way to go.
Larry P
I believe the AMA has created a GNC before by a one race format, in the early 1950's, Bill Tuman won the Springfield, IL. mile and became the grand national champion in dirt track events. What goes around comes around. He was riding an Indian in case anyone was wondering.
Rocket
It might be time we look at this fiasco, quit blaming either AMA or AHRMA, and look for some resolution based on what is going to be the best for the sport. That will require putting away (please) all our claims to national championships from whenever against whomever in whatever class, because at this point our personal wins (huge as they might have been ) are not long to be remembered except in our own minds. After awhile, a person has to really start living in the here and now and start looking at the future.
For the record, I am a slug, was a slug, and have no claims to any sort of win. Anything to the contrary is confusion with my brother of a similar name.
The question that kept popping up on the drive back from Windham (in the rain) was pretty simple: Who do you think has the best interests of vintage bikes and vintage enthusiasts in mind? Who or what organization has vintage people and bikes as its priority? And once we're in the motor home or whatever we're going to do post bikes, post laying out enduros or cross countries or dual sports or rebuliding bikes until the late hours... when we move on with the rest of our lives... who or what is going to give the young Cory Buttricks a chance to ride these stinkin' smokin' noisy old wrecks? (okay, Kent's bikes are the polar opposite of that description but never mind...)
Do you want to trust the fun (and maybe even the "legacy" of this sport if it rates that word) of the silliness we did and do with old bikes to an organization of people who actually own and ride old bikes; or do you want to go with the spit and shine career people who work a nine to five and celebrate with a once year trip to six days on member's money???
Heinz wrote:
Quotequote:Do you want to trust the fun (and maybe even the "legacy" of this sport if it rates that word) of the silliness we did and do with old bikes to an organization of people who actually own and ride old bikes; or do you want to go with the spit and shine career people who work a nine to five and celebrate with a once year trip to six days on member's money???
Thank you for you well thought out and concise statement of vintage racing's present dilemma. For me, the choice is clear.
Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN
Heinz,
Your comments are very leaned to one direction even though you say to not blame AMA or AHRMA. I totally respect your opinion but disagree a bit. In my opinion the REAL truth is that both groups have done things to HELP our sport and to HURT our sport.
On the positive side the AMA has done a lot over the years to back AHRMA and that has produced a lot of growth. The AMA has in particular let AHRMA run the races at VMD in years past and that money has greatly funded AHRMA. Without it AHRMA would have struggled as it is now. Another positive the AMA has brought to the table is 100cc PV and youth as young as 12 being able to race. The AMA has brought a User Friendly atmosphere to registration and added a new level of rider recognition with the GNC idea.
AHRMA positively has done a lot to think out the preservation of eras. They have also worked hard at coming up with a National program and expanded it from Vintage to Post-Vintage and Cross Country and ISDT events. They have spurred growth to expand large events like Diamond Don's and others. Another AHRMA positive is that their ranks are filled with TRUE enthusiasts like Ted Landers. That spirit alone carries a long ways through other deficits in my book.
On the Negative the AMA has made a big rift in making a decision to wash their hands of the pissing match between AHRMA and Ianucci. This move has obviously split the racers in particular as some chose the AHRMA events the week before and some chose VMD. The AMA's biggest negative is the financial loss AHRMA will suffer from this split.
AHRMA has done some negative things for the sport too. They have for one been their own worst enemy on several occasions and the Ianucci deal is a major one. They have also fought changes that would help the future like the youth issue. Youth is our only hope of a future as we all will pass and will need someone to carry on the love of these old bikes. AHRMA has also become a bit anal and Nazi-like in registration and Tech inspection where user friendly would be better.
Part of why we are divided is that our sport is divided. We are a group of two distinct types. Some people are in Vintage to relive, preserve, and ride for enjoyment. Another part is there for the thrill of racing the old bikes again in a safer format than modern racing. This makes each a different vision of what is best.
Now the real truth is that NEITHER organization has the best mousetrap. They are just different mousetraps. I personally like things from both organizations and like Tom Flores no matter who puts it on at the end of a day am just happy I got to race. That is the point of view of a true racer that races to race. That is why I chose to race the AHRMA MX the week before and then drove all the way back to race at VMD. I totally realize there are other points of view and once again am reminded of Ray Kroc's saying, "No one of us is as smart as all of us."
I would love to see a blend of all the good ideas and see an elimination of some of the lame ones. That is what is BEST for the sport. Not having to choose one or the other but for all the good ideas to be rolled into one so that all the good this sport deserves comes to pass. For that to happen egos will have to be set aside by members and leaders alike. The real question will be are we and our leaders on both sides capable of being big enough to do that for this great sport.
One last personal thing is that I think Championships whether they are one day ones or season long ones are important. To the racer they are the Holy Grail and they are never forgotten. To win is what drives a racer. To be the best whether for the moment or a season is the goal. There is a picture in my livingroom of me crossing the finishline at the 1982 World Cup of BMX. My fist is raised and there is a string of riders behind me. I can see the expression of "Yes" in my eyes. I can look at that picture and and the Silver Cup that came from that effort these many years later and know that for one moment in time there was no one better than me in the whole World. I think it is that feeling that all the true racers hope to feel no matter where they race and I hope all those that race will continue to pursue that end regardless of what organization they choose to do it with.
Larry P
In case I missed the oppurtunity, congratulations on that big BMX win Larry.
And, thanks for making several of my points more clear by example.
Heinz,
I am not sure if you are sincere or sarcastic but I sure did not mean to irk you if that is what I did. Regardless I will always be proud of the things I worked hard for and also got lucky at. I am not trying to say I am anybody special just that it is good to strive to a goal.
My main point is we need to stick together and support all of the sport and not pick sides which just further divides it. I have just tried to show the good and the bad of both parties.
I totally respect your opinion and think you are a good guy even if we disagree a bit.
Larry P
So the AMA will have a vintage race once a year. It's not like this is some sort of a full blown competition to decide which org. will rule vintage racing. AHRMA and it's members can proceed as usual 51 weeks a year without feeling threatened.
ps...and as long as keep building one-day-only tracks in a flat field - I'll keep staying away.
Quotequote:Originally posted by rob w
ps...and as long as keep building one-day-only tracks in a flat field - I'll keep staying away.
Same here.
Brian
'72 Berkshire