2-stroke revival?

[Mick Milakovic]

Hi All, I recently read about a potential rule change by the AMA that said both 2 and 4 stroke bikes could compete against each other based on size and not the "cheater" rule.  That means 250 2-strokes would compete against 250 4-stokes, and bigger 2-strokes like a 360 Husky or 300 KTM would compete against the 450 4-strokes.  I went back to the AMA website and now I can't find it.  Has anybody else heard about this proposed rule change?

[Paul Danik]

Mick,
  At last nights POG meeting we had the pleasure of having a long time KTM employee and former Penton rider stop by. He discussed with us a number of interesting issues that he has to deal with, he too made mention that the 4 stroke cc advantage was being eliminated.
Paul

[TGTech]

Mick:

   This issue has created a hurricane of discussions on the big motoforums around the country. Basically, what they're going back to is parity, where the four strokes no longer have the displacement advantage. Of course, those who have purchased the four strokes because they had the performance advantage are really pissing and moaning about it, but the older riders, are seeming to be happy about it.

   The issue wasn't just related to the big bikes, but also to the minis because Honda produced a CRF150R, even though the AMA rules limits the four strokes for the 85 class, to 125cc.  

   If you're interested in reading some of the "battles" on the subject, below are a few links that will get you to some of the forum threads. As you'll see, there was LOTS of discussion.

Dane

This one is HUGE: over 21,000 hits and 410 replies.
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=423999&highlight=Fair

http://motodrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26111&highlight=four+stroke

http://motodrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26280&highlight=four+stroke

http://motodrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26720&highlight=four+stroke

http://motodrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26647&highlight=four+stroke

http://motodrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26291&highlight=four+stroke

http://motodrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26038&highlight=four+stroke

http://motodrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25804&highlight=four+stroke

http://motodrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25214&highlight=four+stroke

http://motodrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25278&highlight=four+stroke

http://motodrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25011&highlight=four+stroke

This is probably the second biggest thread relating to the four strokes.
http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=189611&hl=

http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=191802&hl=

Here's a thread that was started yesterday, and it already has four pages.
http://www.motodrive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27488&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Mick Milakovic]

Paul and Dane, thanks for the replies.  A few personal thoughts all along of mine have been that I love the apparent performance of the new 4-strokes, but miss the smell and sound of the 2-stroke.  Also, the expense of rebuilding a 4-stroke had already helped me make up my mind to have my kids ride 2-strokes as they grow up.  I have 3 kids and a wife that all ride, and keeping everyone running can be a challenge!  Besides, we all know that how fast you go is way more dependant on the rider than the bike.  2-stroke or 4-stroke, Charmichael can whip us all!

[Rain Man]

This issue is already obvious up here in the Northeast. There are already many more late model 4 strokes for sale than 2 strokes.
  My buddies and I all agree, I can put a new top end on my Katooms for 250 bucks and a days work. (if needed of course [])
  a friend of mine just spent 2 grand on his Honda 250 that his 14 y/o son wore out in a summer of daily riding.  I betcha i can get that 4 stroke smoking again this Sunday, just the kid following my 200  Katoom around  all afternoon.
  Mista, those 4 strokes "rising suns" are a maintenace and financial nightmare

Raymond
 Down East Pentons

[rob w]

 Did you happen to read in American Motorcyclist that 2007 will be the last chance to get a new Honda two-stroke.
 They are discontinuing their two-stroke models in 2008.

[Larry Perkins]

"It's the end of the world as we know it."
                            REM


Larry P

[TGTech]

Rob,

   The fact that Honda is going to quit making two strokes is not strange at all. In the late 1960's, Sochiro Honda stated that Honda would never make two strokes. But as the decade changed, the two strokes were dominating racing in all diciplines, and if Honda wanted a piece of the pie, they had to build two strokes. And that's where the Elsinores came from.

   With the dominance of the four strokes in the past 5 or 6 years, they  "saw" that the four strokes were taking back racing, and they made the decision to get back to their legacy. Now if the rules change as many of the people in racing are hoping, then Honda will certainly be getting a smaller piece of the pie.

Larry:

   Hopefully if the rules get adopted, the world that
WE know, will return.

Dane

[socalmx]

Honda did try to compete on four strokes. I remember in 1972 when Bob Hosford was winning the 250 class at Ascot, Lions, and other tracks on a Bill Bell Long Beach Honda prepared SL250. For a while, Bruce Baron raced in the 125 class on a special framed SL125. Of interest is that even back then there were allowances for four strokes. Even though it was cheating, Sig Erkson's (of cam fame) son raced the 100 class on a SL100 that was really displacing around 150cc.

[454MRW]

What is the current thinking on the newest KTM 250 2-stroke that has enough weight reduction to actually make it illegal in PRO classes, at least for the time being, according to the article I read? Just curious what the popular consensus on this developement is. Mike

Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 250'S

[Mick Milakovic]

Mike, I'd like to see the weight reduction on the 2 strokes combined with equal desplacement sizes.  I think a lighter stroke of about 360-400cc could compete with a heavier 450 4 stroke.  If they put as much development dollars in the 2 strokes as the 4 strokes, who knows>

[Rain Man]

A couple of things I do like about 4 strokes is they do longer wheelies better, and their unstoppable climbing hills.  Just dont drown them in a mudhole, the tadpoles are helacious on exhaust valves.

Raymond
 Down East Pentons

[OhioTed]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  "I never met a motorcycle I didn't like".  However, personally I'll always be a 2-stroke guy.  And, true to my nature as a major cheapskate, the "smokers" are my choice - for cost-of-operation.  You guys have been talking about the expense involved should a 4-stroke take "the big drink".  Lordy, over the years we dunked our 2-strokes so many times, then re-fired 'em after merely pumping the top end dry, wringin' out the air filter, and threadin' in a new plug.  Ding, ding, ding.