Something to think about

[Kip Kern]

First Off, Happy Holidays to all!  My something to think about refers to the shortage of kickstarter shafts and clutch plates for the KTM and Sachs engines.  I rebuild quite a few engines each year and recently have run into a situation where there are no stock friction clutch plates available for just about any KTM engine.  I have seen similar in the Sachs arena.  I also see no 14mm and 17 mm kickstart shafts available for the KTM's and the Sachs market too is about zip.  I hope to research the shaft shortage here locally but have had no real luck available in the clutch plate area.  EMGO will make anything we want but you have to order a ton to keep the price down, Barnett really wasn't interested as was a few others.  I am not sure what to do as the Penton community is going to be in a pickle pretty soon.  Al B. has gone the extra mile several times to get things reproduced for us but a person can only do so much and it is very easy to exhaust your funds in a hurry.  I am open for suggestions especially from anyone who knows companies who can reproduce these products at a reasonable cost to us.  I am sure we can come up with something but not sure as of yet!  Just my 2 cents worth.  Anyone want to take the ball and run with it will be greatly appreciated to all, especially if you want any parts to keep these old bikes alive!  I don't want to cause panic or make Ebay prices go up, just reporting what I am seeing.  Happy Holidays!

[t20sl]

Kip:  Along that same line how's the Ceriani fork boots coming along?  I know I inquired almost 2 years ago and you have a mold but haven't gotten your person to supply any yet.  Any hope?  Ted

[[email protected]]

Kip please give me a call or send me an email I think I can help you out or at least point you in the right direction to get what you need and what Ted suggested also. 401-364-3427
Thank you and Happy Holidays !
Paul

[Kip Kern]

Ted

Saw my plastics guy at Mid Ohio and asked again but non yet.  Still waiting though!  Paul, will call!  Thanks

[454MRW]

Kip,
I didn't really want to say anything before it became fact, but I have been working on having clutch plates reproduced, and will be sending samples off after the 1st of the year. I have asked for any NOS single pieces to use for samples, but not been able to locate any NOS pieces to use, and will have to rely on the best used pieces that I can send. If things work out, I plan on sending the early (73-76) sintered 250 discs and the later (76-78) MC5 organic discs. Hopefully 175 and 250 discs will be available in the near future at very reasonable prices. Mike

Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 250'S

[john durrill]

Kip,
 A company in Italy still makes the Sachs clutch plates. Friction discs that is. You could still buy the plates in Germany and the Netherlands last spring. Leo or Gunther could help with supplier names I think.
 This is the address for the outfit that still makes the friction disc.
Surflex S.r.l. 21049 Tradate (VA) IT B1 / 606
I was told Surflex was hard to buy from unless you were a know customer and bought in big lots.
Hope this is some help.
John D.

[454MRW]

I initially spoke to Al Buehner about why he didn't have the clutch discs made, and he said that he wasn't interested since it was so costly, so I actually approached a large Surflex importer with the request to have Surflex contacted about remaining stock for KTM cluthes since they originally made the MC5 organic clutches, or to even remake a  quantity if possible. After several hopeful emails, they just stopped responding. It seemed that it was too much trouble even for one of their largest importers. My employer that sells wholesales Corvette products has offered to have these produced and offer them at better than affordable prices. If there is any of the Sachs clutches in high demand, I will see if they can also be produced if a sample disc can be provided. Mike

Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 250'S

[Kip Kern]

Mike,  Talked to Paul at Strictly Hodaka and he was a fantastic help in this direction.  Keep us posted on your outcome and I will also do some checking.  Got some other info pertaining to original handlebar manufacturing as well as other items.  Paul S. has laid quite a bit of the ground work, he is to be commended!  My thoughts were to make a standard 2.5mm copper friction disc that would work on all machines, 125-400,  and use the standard steel disc with these.  If you stack the organic plates with steel, and the copper with steel, you will find that the stacks are the same height.  The number of discs determined actual surface area.  The more friction plates used the more surface area, however the thinner the plate. I.E, 5 organic friction plates (125-175) at 3.5mm thick = 7 copper friction plates (250-400) at 2.5mm thick. I think a 125 and 175 can pull copper plates as I have found them in a few engines and working OK.  Vice versa, I have found organic plates in the 250/400's and they were "smoked" so I would lean more towards the longer lasting copper.  Thanks for the help, we need to keep these machines rolling!  John, thanks for the info on the Sachs friction plates, looks like they may still be available so will focus on the KTM stuff for right now. Now, if I could only win the lottery so I can pay for this stuff!  Merry Christmas to all!  CIAO

[454MRW]

Kip,
I figure that by having both the sintered and the organic discs made, we could cover more of what is needed.
According to Bobby Lucas in the Fall 1999 Issue #4 of Keeping track the newer organic angled plates that spin the oil away from the inner hub are the hot ticket for the best holding clutches, but some test articles on the MC5 mention that clutch drag is slightly more noticeable than the sintered discs.
If I understand the application correctly, the sintered discs use a different pressure plate than the organics, and I am not sure they come up with the same stack height without the correct version, including the matching release rod.  
Since my employer is offering to have these done on his dime, it would be nice to get everyones preference, so if anyone has recommendations, please feel to email me at [email protected] or speak up. Thanks, Mike


Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 250'S

[Kip Kern]

Mike,  The pressure plates are the same for organic or steel 73-78, only the thickness is different, there is however, a slight difference between the dual rod and ball VS the later single rod set up but the pressure plate itself is the same.  The various thicknesses of pressure plates allowed you to get the proper measurement of the clutch actuator on the right side of tha engine, roughly 40-45mm throw.  This allowed for the differences of stacks on the various clutches.  If you check out some of the shop manuals, it will indicate that various clutch configurations were used in KTM, all were acceptable.

[454MRW]

Kip,
The pressure plates on my MC5 250 engines all have the thick pressure plate and is matched up with the dissengagement rod with the large circle of ball bearings in the tip assembly and the receiving bearing race pressed in to the pressure plate. Is that interchangeable with the bolt/nut arrangement used in the earlier rod only clutches? Mike

Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 250'S

[desmond197]

May be we could all chip in for the development costs or POG could help out. The British bike and car clubs do this kind of thing all the time. If we all donate $25 for development that would help out.

[Kip Kern]

Mike  The later single piece rod wit the bearings replaced the early two piece rods with 6mm ball.  If you wish, you can swap units as long as you swap it as a package.  The old style rods are 108mm long each and a 6mm ball goes between them for a total of 222mm.  Once that is correct, you change the pressure plate thickness to allow for the actuator throw of 40-45mm.  You can use different stacks of plates as KTM varied and noted in the shop manuals.  Once you built the clutch pack up, you then had to get the throw corrected to match it so that is where the different thickness pressure plate came into play.  I have about 5 different thicknesses for building clutches.  The funny thing is, the shop manual and the part have the same P/N but doesn't specify thickness!  Ted, I see what you are indicating but I was averaging/guessing that there weren't that many KTM 125's out there being used.  The little engine that couldn't can't get out of it's own way unless you do some major changes to it so most don't race it.  There are a few later 175's but the majority is 250 and 400's that I see.  In about 100 engine rebuilds, I have seen 2 125's and possible 3 later 175's.