Lets turn back the clock and head to "The Factory"

[Paul Danik]

Greetings,

   When Andreas posted his question about fitting his assembled engine back into his chassis, my mind instantly went back to an evening many, many years ago.

    I was helping to put back together a customers Sachs powered CMF Penton at the local dealership. The bike was brand spanking new as the new owner had wanted some porting work done before he took possession of the bike. The engine work was finished and we were taking great pains to reassemble the bike without scratching any paint.

     All was going well till it was time to put the pipe back on the bike, the owner of the dealership picked up the pipe and started to very carefully put the exhaust pipe back on the bike, then he uttered those words that have stuck in my mind ever since...

     " If I ever get to the factory, I want to watch THEM put these pipes on the bikes and see just how THEY do it! "

     OK, how about you, if you could turn back the clock and go to the KTM factory what would you want to see or do? You do have the "KTM Factory Hopper Pass" that allows access to all areas and the ability to ask any questions you wish.....

     At the upcoming POG meeting, I plan to bring up the question of the KTM engine installation during the "ask the experts" segment. The question being, "were the top-ends on the KTM engines before they were installed in the chassis on the assembly line?"

     So, how about you folks, any questions for the folks at the factory, or things you would loved to have seen, or seen how they were done...the sky is the limit, remember, you do have that very special "KTM Factory Hopper Pass!"

     I need to read the fine print, but I do think that pass entitles you to an adult beverage with JP and Eric later in the afternoon in Eric's garden!

Paul

[skiracer]

Paul,

I have owned my mc5 250 since it was new.  I have always been able to put the motor in the frame completely assembled.  It is done from the right side, with the bottom facing away from you.  Once the top of the head clears the back bone of the frame, you stand the motor up, and slide it into it's mounts.  Is it easy? No.  Does it work better with someone on each side of the bike? Yes.  Is it a pain in the butt? Yep!  But it does work!

quote:Originally posted by Paul Danik

Greetings,

   When Andreas posted his question about fitting his assembled engine back into his chassis, my mind instantly went back to an evening many, many years ago.

    I was helping to put back together a customers Sachs powered CMF Penton at the local dealership. The bike was brand spanking new as the new owner had wanted some porting work done before he took possession of the bike. The engine work was finished and we were taking great pains to reassemble the bike without scratching any paint.

     All was going well till it was time to put the pipe back on the bike, the owner of the dealership picked up the pipe and started to very carefully put the exhaust pipe back on the bike, then he uttered those words that have stuck in my mind ever since...

     " If I ever get to the factory, I want to watch THEM put these pipes on the bikes and see just how THEY do it! "

     OK, how about you, if you could turn back the clock and go to the KTM factory what would you want to see or do? You do have the "KTM Factory Hopper Pass" that allows access to all areas and the ability to ask any questions you wish.....

     At the upcoming POG meeting, I plan to bring up the question of the KTM engine installation during the "ask the experts" segment. The question being, "were the top-ends on the KTM engines before they were installed in the chassis on the assembly line?"

     So, how about you folks, any questions for the folks at the factory, or things you would loved to have seen, or seen how they were done...the sky is the limit, remember, you do have that very special "KTM Factory Hopper Pass!"

     I need to read the fine print, but I do think that pass entitles you to an adult beverage with JP and Eric later in the afternoon in Eric's garden!

Paul

1976 MC 5 Original Owner
1982 Suzuki PE 175
1976 Penton 175 XC
1979 KTM 175 GS

[Mike Rosso]

You reminded me of a funny story and how we tend to think of how things are done from the other end. We or at least I learned how to take things apart and then put them back together by retracing the disassembly steps. Factories figure out the best, quickest and most efficient method of assembling something more than taking it apart. Cars and trucks for instance have the entire engine, transmission, suspension, driveline, etc., installed from underneath as one complete assembly in a matter of minutes where you and I labor for hours to change a set of brake pads or change the spark plugs.

Here's the story of a visit to the KTM factory a few years ago with Sean M the service manager and Larry a young service tech that Sean hired and neither of them had ever been to the factory. Larry the young tech was always in awe of Sean and his technical abilities (I was too) and as I was taking them to the beginning of the KTM motorcycle assembly line where they were assembling the 4-stroke Racing Four Strokes (RFS) Larry starts to brag about how no one can put a RFS engine into a frame as quickly and efficiently as his boss Sean. The entire way to the beginning of the assembly area Larry kept touting and wanting to take wagers on how long it would take the person who puts the engine into the frame would do in comparison to Sean's two to three minutes tops! Once again this is how we think things are done because it's the reverse of how we took it apart....I'm attaching this link to the KTM factory assembly line and if you wait or skip to about the 1:10 minute mark you'll see how the person installs the engine or should I say the engine and frame are "married" (that's the assembly line term ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CAfUWslP5I&feature=player_embedded

Pretty easy to get the fully assembled engine "into" the frame without scratching or damaging the paint or finish on either component. As for the exhaust pipe on the older Penton I too want to find out how they did it and I'm sure I'll probably say "I would have never imagined they did it like that".

Good thread Paul.

Mike

[Dale Fisher]

Slightly off topic this video shows engine assembly from parts to running in fifteen minutes.  Longevity, warranty not included....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J6ofktz5HY&list=RD3J6ofktz5HY#t=23

Dale Fisher
Penton Owners Group - President/Memberships
POG Merchandise
Mudlark Registry
Facebook - Penton Owners Group - Administrator
Facebook - Cheney Racing Group - Administrator

'70 Six-Day 125 - V2017
'72 Mudlark - W257
'73 Jackpiner - 175 21159727
'74 Berkshire 100 - 40171056
'98 HP-14 Hi-Point
And some silly other bikes...

[Steve Minor]

Impressive....but I think I'll keep my Doug Wilford motor.

Steve Minor

[Andreas Piepke]

Yes the exhaust. I always scratch it up when inserting. Attaching the rubber piece to the air filter box is a challenge too. When I did it last week it almost drove me through the roof...

Andreas

[Mike Rosso]

Paul if you've had a chance to view the video then you've seen what I mean about how sometimes what we find difficult to do in our workshop is pretty easy to do on the assembly line. The factory doesn't install the engine "into" the frame they put the frame "onto" the engine in about 10"-seconds. Sean and Larry's jaws about hit the factory floor when they saw that being done that way. Pretty sure if we ever find out how they put the exhaust pipe on we'd probably have the same reaction, there has to be some kind of trick to it we just have to find out what it was.

[Mike Rosso]

quote:Originally posted by Dale Fisher

Slightly off topic this video shows engine assembly from parts to running in fifteen minutes.  Longevity, warranty not included....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J6ofktz5HY&list=RD3J6ofktz5HY#t=23

Dale Fisher
Penton Owners Group - President/Memberships
POG Merchandise
Mudlark Registry
Facebook - Penton Owners Group - Administrator
Facebook - Cheney Racing Group - Administrator

'70 Six-Day 125 - V2017
'72 Mudlark - W257
'73 Jackpiner - 175 21159727
'74 Berkshire 100 - 40171056
'98 HP-14 Hi-Point
And some silly other bikes...

Dale that's a cool video but I have to ask 1. where the heck did you find it and 2. who the heck makes a (TV?) show about assembling a Sachs engine in record time? LOL.

There were a few short cuts on that video, the main shaft was already assembled and I didn't see a base gasket on there or checking and setting the deck height, ignition timing, or torqueing ANYTHING ;)

He also got away with using the wrong length screws on the center cases but got himself in trouble on the clutch cover with the screw length. Here's a tip on choosing the correct screw length I learned from an old KTM engineer and the reason you can spot the mistake he made on the engine case screws.

To make it as short as possible the engineer gave me a challenge when he scooped up all of the engine case screws that I had neatly arranged and laid out in the correct position on a shop rag as he was watching me reassemble an engine. I put them into the cases and he asked if I was finished and then he swapped two of them. Then he told me that was good but not perfect and then told me how to know the next time. He said there is a standard engineering practice of knowing the position by following the rule of minimum thread engagement when putting a steel screw (or bolt) into a steel thread (steel frame, steel case, etc.,) that you must have a minimum thread engagement of the diameter of the screw or bolt. In other words a 6mm steel screw must engage 6mm of the case or threaded hole, so when you put the screw in you will have 6mm between the head of the screw and the case/hole. If it's an 8mm bolt then there will be 8mm between the head of the bolt and so forth as Mr. John Penton would say.

If you're putting a 6mm steel screw into an aluminum thread as in this case (pun intended) then you need to have two times (2 X) the thread engagement or 12mm and you will see all of the case screws will have 12mm between the heads of the screws even at the dowel pin locations. You can pretty much grab a 12mm wrench and put it at every screw once you place them into the case holes and see the distance the screws stick out. If you watch the video again you'll see one of the screws sticking up about 18mm meaning it is in the wrong position but he still got away with it. This means he put another screw also in the wrong place and then when he got to the clutch cover it came back to bite him as he had one or two screws that were too short.

And for magnesium threads like the KTM magnesium engine cases with steel screws, thread engagement is THREE to ONE or a 6mm screw will need a minimum of 18mm of thread engagement and stick out a minimum of 18mm.

Follow this rule and you won't strip or damage a thread:

Steel screw to steel thread = 1 to 1 engagement

Steel screw to aluminum thread = 2 to 1 engagement

Steel screw to magnesium thread = 3 to 1 engagement

If you keep that in mind (even on non-metric applications) you'll spot when you have the correct or incorrect screw in the right or wrong place or at least know that you screwed up (pun again:)) somewhere. Also helps if you're trying to figure out what length fastener to use if it is missing.

Sorry for the slight thread (I have to stop with the puns) hi-jack but the assembly line workers know this rule too so it helps them know they are installing the parts with the correct length fasteners.  

[Paul Danik]

Mike, I did watch the video from the Factory and was amazed at how they did the assembly. Thanks for providing it.

I have suggested to President Dale that at VMD he could possibly put timed Sachs engine building demonstrations on, don't let the Hodaka guys know this or they might want to challenge him to an engine building contest Paul Stannard don't read this...

A few things I would have liked to have seen at the Factory "back in the day".

A. What the serial number was on the last Steel Tanker to run down the assembly line. We may possibly still be able to find that out if we get a hold of the hand written production info that Leo is working on getting.

B. What the serial number was on the first CMF Penton, from what we have gathered it was either 50,000 or 50,001.

C. I would have loved to have seen the "left over inventory" from the Steel Tanker production when it ended and seen just where it all went. Was most of it shipped to Penton Imports? Sold off in Europe? OR, is it all stored away and forgotten about in a dusty old barn in a corner of the KTM property...might have to ask POG Secretary Heather to possibly do a little "snooping" on her next trip to KTM.

I also want to give Heather a copy of the photo of the Penton proto model sitting outside the KTM factory in a winter time setting and see if she can find that location, there is some signage for a road or rail crossing in the picture, plus some mountains in the background, she will figure it out, or possibly you will know where it is.

Many more questions,...but will stop here for now.

Paul

[[email protected]]

Still jet lagged. Did not see a thing :-)