tanker talk

[amherstscott]

in the winter issue of the news letter there is an article by paul concerning engine markings, my bike has the m.Sp on the oil filler, it has a number on the case right front below cylinder head of 19, in pauls article he had a picture of this stamp it was 39 which indicated close ratio 5 speed transmission, anyone know what 19 is. my frame # isv5015 engine is 7962277 122 just trying to learn as much as I can searched threads didn't see anything

[Paul Danik]

Scott,

   Thanks for your input.

  It is interesting how the subject of the stamping of the cases and filler caps is evolving. Another concept being pursued is that the engines with those stampings were ones that were rebuilt by Penton Imports " back in the day". I have gotten some emails from a couple of guys who are very much into the Sachs engines after they read that info in the Still Keeping Track, ideas and thoughts are flowing....

  I remember Doug Wilford stating that they had a situation one time where someone sent an engine to Penton Imports and stated that Penton Imports had recently rebuilt the engine and that there was a problem with it. They did not think it was an engine that they had rebuilt, but they really could not prove it, Doug said that from then on they marked the engines that they rebuilt.

    Somewhere in the back of my mind I keep thinking that someone told of putting ID markings under the ignition so that they could ID their engines, but I can not remember if it was Penton Imports or someone else. There is one person who might have a few of these answers and I am trying to get ahold of him. If you pull the ignition off of an engine look closely for some stamped markings, I seem to remember someone stating that they used a punch and just made a few punch marks to prove if they had rebuilt the engine.

   What does not add up to me is how low these numbers are, 19 and 39, Penton Imports did LOTS of engines, they even had special boxes made up for shipping them. I also do not think that Penton Imports would stamp m.sp on engines that were rebuilt for dealers/customers.

  If you are reading this and have a Sachs engine in your Penton or stored away somewhere, how about taking a look at it sometime and see if you find any interesting markings. The first place to look is on top of the oil filler cap, look for and X or m.SP or any other interesting stamped markings, if you find one that is the first clue that your engine has some sort of history....keep cleaning and looking closely on the cases for more "clues"...happy hunting and please let us know what you find.

Thanks,
Paul

[Gary Roach]

The Sachs "A" motor in my '69 Saracen has the m.Sp. marking on the filler cap, but no numbers stamped on the cases and no other markings behind the ignition.

[Paul Danik]

Gary,

   Have you pulled the top end, or totally disassembled the engine?  If so, did you find anything unusual that would have given the engine builder reason to mark the engine?  

  The stamping on that plug is similar to the others.

  Paul

[Gary Roach]

Paul,

I pulled the top end off and didn't see anything. I have not split the center cases.

[t20sl]

Could the m.Sp refer to type of oil Sachs was wanting us to use?  I have 2 used plugs in a box and both are marked like that.  Neither engine they came from had any other markings that I can see.
Ted

[derek martin]

Could be the plug supplier's markings denoting style and size or part number. Sachs probably sourced this plug from a supplier instead of making in-house.

[Oldebonz]

My '74 Berkshire has a small DOUG W stamped on the left engine case close to the rear mount under carburetor.

[Larry Perkins]

Doug stamped that on the motors he overhauled.  It was done by the best!  Be happy!

Larry P

[Oldebonz]

I am very happy!It really works very well!

[ALB]

I checked all the used Sachs engine cases that I have + I also checked my inventory of the screw caps. There are no stampings on any of these.
The stamping as shown in the photo looks like something that the Sachs factory did. It is a 1 piece die stamp vs individual dies that Penton and Doug used to mark the engines.
This leads me to believe that the Sachs factory marked certain engines that something was done to them.
Doug told me many years ago, that when he visited the Sachs factory, that they would have a line of engines off to the side of the production line. These were special engines that Sachs would make up (most likely on special orders) for the ISDT bikes and probably other type of race bikes.
I think that Ted is correct that the m.sp stamping refers to the special Sachs oil, since this stamping is only on the oil fill cap.


Alan Buehner

[firstturn]

I have seen marking on some Military Sachs engines filler caps, but I never thought to take a picture.

Ron Carbaugh

[Paul Danik]

Greetings,

   This evening I took time to closely examine an engine that has the m.Sp. stamped into the top of the oil filler cap. My observations are as follows.

    The engine has the aluminum rod and is an "A" engine.

     The engine looks to be a low time engine.

    It has the cast iron cylinder with the Sachs hi-compression head.

    Instead of having the head bolts threading into the top of the cylinder, there are studs installed into those threads that stick up, and the head slides down over them with a washer and nut going onto each of the studs.

     The piston is of a one ring design and the ring is a dykes ring.

     The piston has .080 stamped into the top of it.

     In looking at the intake on the cylinder, it appeared to be thinner and smoother than what I am used to seeing. I took another cylinder and compared them and the intake on the m.SP. engine has been opened up a bit and is smoother.

     The counter shaft sprocket has 13 teeth.

So, what does the above add up to

Could Penton have taken some standard bore 125cc engines and bore them out and work them over for a little bit of an advantage over a standard 54mm two ring job ?

The fact that this engine has a 13 tooth countershaft sprocket could lead one to believe that it was indeed intended to be used in MX.

Do other engines with the m.Sp. stamped oil cap have these same features? If not, possibly when the .080 single ring piston wore out a standard bore cylinder with a two ring piston was installed as the motorcycle still had a lot of life left in it. There would be none of the modifications left except the stamped oil filler cap.

I could be wrong, but so far it seems like these stamped oil filler caps have been only on engines with the cast iron cylinder.

Anyhow, just wanted to provide what I found and hope others will keep an eye out for any of these engines with the stamped oil filler caps.

If you have any information, thoughts or comments, please feel free to post them.

Paul





     

[Bill Campbell]

I have just begun to restore the engine for V1675. This is my first Sachs motor I have dismantled so I know very little about them from a practical side. I checked my engine #5762252 and it has the m.Sp. on the oil filler cap but no other indications as per Paul's last post. It has the number 93 stamped on both engine cases below the bottom rear engine mount hole. Piston is a Wiseco P27 with a bore of 54.93mm and comes with an aluminium rod. Looking forward to getting this engine back together.
Bill