AHRMA post 74 like design rule going away?

[Mike Lenz]

AHRMA is discussing doing away with the post 74 like design rule. What seems strange is apperently just for the sportsman class.It seems Premier,classic and post vintage classes[all other classes] will still allow newer "like design" bikes and comonents, but not sportsman?? I dont understand and have written AHRMA for more info. I think this is a good, commen sense rule that keeps our supply of bikes, frames and engines in better supply , keeps racing costs down, and makes a class where you can competively race a 1975 Penton. Forcing that bike into PV Historic class with mc-5's will just make it obsolete. If you would like my detailed responce letter to AHRMA please email me at [email protected]. You better hurry if you care. They are talking about putting this up for a vote at their Flordia meeting. The blurb about this is on page 15 of the feb issue of Vintage Views.

 

[Dwight Rudder]

It wouldn't be so bad if they had a 1975-77 class with limited travel. That was the "Historic" class machines with say 7" inches or less travel be in one class and if more than 7" in another. Or something like that. Maybe less travel allowed on rear. I think my 1975 Hercules GS175/6a has 7" front and 5.5" rear. I think the common mounting for the Pentons then was 6" rear.
Cher'o,
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
7 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[rob w]

Bad idea.
The only difference between a 74 and a 75 is the swingarm and one frame member. They are mistaken if they think there's any radical differences that give the 75 a unfair advantage. Not only is this is true for the Pentons but also CZ's, Bultaco's and Maico's. It looks like there's time to fight this Mike, they're talking the change would go into affect in 2008, right?. Thanks

Dwight, I'm not racing a 75 against the 76's and 77's, the differences in the forks and the frame design is too radically different. Not fair!

 

[Mike Lenz]

Dwight, There has been no mention of any new classes only that those bikes could be ridden in the existing PV classes.

 

[Mike Lenz]

There is time to fight this, however if it is voted on as final in the florida meetings it will be much harder to undo than it would have to stop before final voting on the issue. Plus we need more info. Are we missing something here? It just doesnt make much sense to do. WE need clarification from AHRMA. I suggest you all write AHRMA, Vintage veiws and all the board members respectfully asking for more information and time to discuss this rule before they all leave for the flordia meeting. For Penton riders this is not a good thing. No swapping engines around that have a newer than 74 date on them,even though they are the same. Ever try and find an actual 74 400 motor? There arnt many left out there! This remindes me of the government, lets make things harder to do for no good reason!! I see this as only hurting AHRMA.

 

[tomale]

I agree that a 74'or a 75' Penton should not compete with a 76 or new bike, but isn't a 75 alot closer in performance with a 76' than a 75' is to a 74'? I personally feel like my 76' is out gunned by the 78'-80' bikes. not sure though because I have not yet raced it, but I hope to soon. As I understand the existing rule it seems to be as fair as is possible considering the large differences in the bikes in question. Like they say if i ain't broke don't fix it.
I wonder if the change has something to do with low numbers in the sportsman class and their desire to eliminate poorly attended classes. I don't know that this is true but I could see how they might think this way. Not that I agree or anything. It makes me think that I maybe should not race that 76' of mine and find a newer bike to beat up. I am with you, I want to keep costs as low as possble.

Thom Green,I own and ride a 76 250 MC5 MX which I bought new.

[lobo6y]

POGers,
I'm the AHRMA West MX Tech Chief and  a newly elected West Region Trustee (my first  official meeting will be at Daytona).
You all bring up some great points - let me try to offer some clarification, and ask for your help.

I agree with several of you here in that I do not think the proposal was properly clarified in either V-V (Jan, Feb) or on the website.

What WAS presented properly (I think) was that AHRMA does want feedback on the proposal. What was NOT written well were any specifics of the proposal to enable members to comment better.  

The main portion of the discussion was around the 75-77 bikes (like the KX 400/250 - not like truly like design bikes such as the 75 125 Elsinore or 125 Kawasaki ) which were originally deemed "like design" to 1974,  before AHRMA had Post Vintage classes and was trying to build numbers to get away from running our races as a part of other programs (Old Timers, etc).  My Penton experience was primarily in the 71-74 time frame so I'm particularly interested in your specific comments on the ~75 models "like design" issues.  The other board members are looking for your specific comments, as well.

While the proposal will be discussed more at Daytona, no rule change can take place mid-year (my understanding).  The rule change proposals are published (in V-V) after the Colorado meeting in September for membership comment, then voted upon at the final November meeting, taking membership feedback into account.  As owners, builders and racers of these bikes I/we are intereseted in your specific comments on this proposal.

If any of you are going to Daytona/Waldo please come talk to me and the other board member attending- I'll be working Post Vintage, Vintage, and Cross Country tech.  

When I return from the board meeting I hope to have have more info and clarification (and hope to see it published - clearly).

Fun on Old Wheels,
Dave Janiec
AHRMA 6y
AHRMA West MX Tech Chief
AHRMA West Trustee (Elect)

 

[Mike Lenz]

Thanks Dave! To clear things up about penton 250 and 400's; in 74 and a half penton came out with a new rear frame tail section and swingarm [a little before Maico did the same thing]. However the penton had changed things so you could still run the shocks in the same position as the 73's and early 74's giving the bike 4 or 5 inches of rear wheel travel. However, you could also move them up on the on the swingarm, similer to maico, giving you about 6 inches of travel. You could also lay the shocks down at a 45 degree angle, giving you about 7 inches. In 1975 the frames and engines were unchanged with the exception of some minor gusseting on the frame. They also went with 8 inch travel in line forks. In 1976 KTM came out with the mc-5 models with leading axle forks, a new frame and 9 inches of travel ft and back. However the enduro model sold that year again had exactly the same frame as the 75 models but now also had the 9 inch leading axle forks. Other than the forks, still almost an exact like design of the 74 and a halfs and exactly the same as the 75's. Again the only differences being minor gusseting. Same steering head angle and frame design, same engine. Performance wise really no different than the 73's. The like design of the engines went on, with the lower ends being the same all the way through 79 on the 400 and 80 on the 250. Post 74 porting changes started on both bikes in 77 but were really fairly minor throughout the 70's. I find no real atvantage with the later cylinders. Exhaust pipe tecnoligy got better thru the 70's. But pipes for Pentons are so very hard to locate that if you have anything to run your doing good. I hope this gives you the information you were looking for on Pentons and I hope as you mention that real like kind post 74 bikes will continue to be allowed in sportsman so we can all keep having fun!
Thanks!
Mike Lenz
Sportsman expert rider.

 

[Dwight Rudder]

I agree that most 1975 bikes can't compete with the longer travel 1976 or worst yet the 1977 bikes. I have a 1975 Hercules 6 speed with a whole 5.5" of rear wheel travel and 7" front. Not much more than a 1975 Honda MR175. That is why I said a limited travel class for 1975-76 bikes. I believe the 1975 Pentons can easily compete against such machines and even 1976-77 Hercules 7 speeders. There is a big difference that I see in the transition bikes to the Historic early long travel machines. Husqvarna had everyone beat in 1976 I think.
Cher'o,
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
7 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[Dwight Rudder]

I hope we are not arguing about whether the bikes have 8" of travel VS 9" in the forks. Not that much difference. I say have a class with about 7" of travel in front ( Maybe up to 8") but restrict rear to 6". This would be much better concept. Or have an Enduro class with these specs.


cher'o,
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
7 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[Larry Perkins]

1975 Penton has about 7"-7.5" and 1977 Penton MC5 has 9".  I have won first in Historic Post Vintage MX Nationals with both.  The 77 is better but just as it was in 74 and today in 03 most of it is in the right wrist. Two years ago Kevin Brown rode a 74 Penton and was third overall just seconds from first at the ISDTR against Burleson and Fredette on modern bikes.  It was the right wrist.  Kevin has a good one.

The majority of the Post Vintage tracks are the same as vintage so the extra travel is not an absolute necessity.  The technology of the motor from 74 to 77 in KTM's changed very little and that is the main thing. I don't think the 75 Penton would be obsolete as a Post Vintage bike.  I am not agreeing with AHRMA just making a point.

Part of what is bringing this potential rule change about is people useing it to cheat.  In Pentons for example there are numerous national riders including some in this forum that run a Post Vintage 75 in Vintage but have illegal forks.  AHRMA threatened to check this closer but hasn't.  It is just an extra inch but it is a rule.