Americans VS the euros

[dirtbike]

Please, no misaimed reactions to this. It's a discussion (question) with a smile behind. :-)

I often run into something that feels real odd. I can hardly read my Dirtbike Mag or anything without the story turning into how heroic the american rider/team or whatever where facing those cheating europeans.
Well, the question. Who are they?

Let me put it this way. If all of you living in america always read something like how (this or that) you pacific riders where. Meaning of course americans, japanese and chilenian riders grouped together.
Wouldn't you feel disconnected?

This grouping of euro riders (or teams or events) would at least in some way assume that there where a single rider that considered himself "european" in some way or at least where aware that he/she could be grouped together in some context.
The news, I think is, there isn't!

Yelling "hey you", addressing a group seems a bit redicoulus since there is no group. At least no individuals considering themselves as part of a group or even remotely able to assume that they ever could be bunched together with complete strangers by someone.

I mean, like a finnish person would cheer an Italian rider in favour of an american. Completely nonsense!

It disturbs me a bit reading about it all the time. Where does it come from?

[metalkfab]

And I thought the forum on race gas gave me a headache.

[LynnCamp]

Dirt Bike,
In understand completely what you are saying.  It is an age old clash of cultures.  I lived overseas most of my life and some of my family chooses to live abroad and tell me that Americans don't have a clue...  Having said that, I will also say that I was the typical "ugly american" when I lived overseas... only choosing to learn enough to cuss in any given language.  My only excuse is that I was too young and too cocky.

The fact of the matter is that we Americans don't have a very rounded view of the world. I would just hope that you take whatever you read with a grain of salt..... that is the unfortunate nature of the press.  Just please know (and I think you do know from the POG group of riders)is that Americans, for the most part, have a big hearts and mean no harm.  Again.... don't believe everything you read!

[tomale]

Dirt bike, Thankyou for bringing this up. Americans for what ever reason often times do not have a very good reputation in other parts of the world. I think that part of it is because an american perspcective is different than almost anywhere else. We have compared to the rest of the world pretty easy and we tend to get cock about it. As if we are responsible for the good fortune we have enjoyed. Boy are we arrogant!
On the other side I can remember when the "Europeans came to America. The first time I saw what became my heros was at a Motocross race in the 1970 I was amazed at how fast they were and that they could even ride on what I could not even walk on. Those off camber corners must have been 30% off camber and it was muddy and I slipped with ever step. Then america start competing in the Motocross De Nations and we could hardly keep up.
I think that part of it maybe that competition thing that was set up way back in the sixties. Us against them... them being anyone not american but especially the "europeans"  Not fair I know and hard to break...especially when the bike mags will not let go of it.
I think it is unfair to have some americans go to europe to compete for a few days and then because we bring home a win though not overall is an unfair assesment. Have we forgot where Motocross came from.
BY the way I for one am sick of what we as americans have done to Motocross. It is no longer a race it is a show. Just anothe circus that has come to town. I would much rather watch the euopean races the what we call motocross here in the states...
Joel Smets was right... they are messing with our beloved Motocross.
I do not accept the idea that supercross is good for the sport. It is only good to make men rich and it dillutes and destroyes all that is best about racing. What has happen to the Iron men of motocross?
Progress is not always health or valuble.
I hope you know that there are some americans that still prefer the drama of racing rather than the glitz of hollywood's attempt at racing.

Thom Green,I own and ride a 76 250 MC5 MX which I bought new.

[TGTech]

dirtbike et.al.:

   First off, one of the most compelling reasons that we Americans don't embrace or in many cases, even understand other countries' cultures, is very simple: we don't have to deal with them on a regular basis. Our county goes from one shore to the other and the only country that is markedly different from the U.S. that touches our borders, is a long way away from most of us. So, we don't exerience exposure to other cultures on a regular basis, like most Europeans.

   Secondly, the settlers of our country, came here for specific reasons. The first, to escape persecution of their original homeland. Later on, people came here, because it was the land of opportunity, and consequently, it was sort of like a utopia to many. A place where you dream of going and if you finally get there, you espouse the culture.

   Regarding the motocross issue, because we are a people of excess, after we got our butts kicked a few times, and because we found out that we liked the sport, we took to it, like a fish to water. And we did it to excess. And anything that is done to excess, is usually done better than anybody else that only does it part of the time. Hence, after a few years of doing it at such levels, our riders got really good at it, and now, we can, as a whole, pretty much dominate motocross at most levels. Sure, there are some fast guys at any given race, but in a numbers game, the American riders, have pretty much kicked ass and taken names.

   On that excess thing, where else in the world, do they start their children riding motocross at the age of four years? In this country, we have THREE National Championship classes for kids riding machines of 50cc! You can't help but dominate the sport, when you start from that point.

   To address the manner in which the Americans treat motocross. Again, our culture is much different than the rest of the world, and in this case, it has spawned a totally new type of "motocross": Supercross. We are (on the negative side of things) a lazy culture. We like to sit down with our hot dogs and our beers, and be entertained. In the case of motocross, promoters found a way to bring motocross to those who wanted to watch it, without having to be bothered by the elements of sun, wind, rain, cold, etc. In the beginning, the tracks weren't very challenging, and it still brought in the crowds. Over time, as the riders got better and better at doing things, the tracks got more and more challenging, finally arriving at what we see today.

   Personally, I believe that the Supercross tracks are far too dangerous, but in a numbers game, we have lots of riders, so if we lose a few to injury, there are still enough to go around. And those who do survive, are very, very, very good. Take Ricky Carmichael, Chad Reed, James Stewart, Mike LaRocco, etc. Once the riders figured out how to take care of the challenges of the Supercross tracks, the outdoors events became pretty mundane. Soooooo, the promoters began to take some of the elements from Supercross, outdoors. For this reason, we now have outdoor motocross, that is pretty darn challenging.

   As to the American's screwing up motocross, look at what has happened to the World Championship series. Money and greed, completely screwed it up while Dorna was running it, and in that time, many of the top riders in the Grand Prix series, decided that since the money and faster riders were in the U.S., they made it their goal, to come here. Now that Guiseppe Luongo and Youthstream is back in charge, they recognize the problems inherent with the Grand Prix series, and are trying to turn it around. Whether or not they will be successful, remains to be seen.

   Oh and one other thing about the U.S. and their fanaticism about motorcycle racing: we've been very flush monitarily, and thus we've bought the best of everything to get the task accomplised. Granted, most of it is paid for with our "giant credit card", but still, we spent the money.

   As for the "cheating" accusations, I think that comes from the "old boys network" in Europe, of the Euros against the Americans. From my perspective, motorsports in Europe, is governed largely by committee, rather than by rules. In cases where there is a rule infraction that is not clear cut, there is a jury meeting to discuss the matter, and the issue is dealt with, from all the different perspectives of the different countries. Add to that method, the political and business ties between countries, and you have a complete muddy mess. I've seen it in motocross and I've seen it in the ISDT/E.

   Perhaps the most blatant example that I am familiar with, was at the 1982 ISDE in Czechoslovakia. The event was a very difficult one, and when the 5th day arrived, the Americans and the Czechs were at the top of the heap. During day 5, one of the American riders was injured, but not badly enough to exclude him from the event. But rather than treating him in a very quick and effecient manner, the Czech medical personnel, kept the rider off his bike for much longer than it should have taken them, thus penalizing the rider on time, and hurting the American Team. A protest was filed, but at the jury meeting, safety concerns were sited, and nothing else could be done.

   It seems to me, that at that point in the event, both teams had lost a man from their Trophy squads, so they were down to 5 man teams. On either the 5th or 6th day, a Czech rider was caught getting outside assistance of one type or another, and photos were even taken of the incident. At the jury meeting, when the evidence was presented and a vote taken as to whether or not to exclude the Czech rider, the vote came down to the British juryman's vote. If he voted to exclude the Czech rider, that would put their team at 4 riders, leaving the Americans with 5 and the World Trophy in the most prestigious enduro in the world. If, on the other hand, the British juryman voted not to exclude the Czech rider, then the Czech's would have a better aggregate score, thus beating the Americans.

   When it got down to the voting, you would think that the British, being an English speaking nation, would have sided with the underdogs, the Americans in this case. But because the British juryman had a business importing Jawa speedway bikes and equipment from Czechoslovaki back to the U.K., he voted not to exclude the Czech rider, thus sealing the deal against the Americans. The American ISDE Trophy team, who actually got to the end of the event in a position to win, and in the face of evidence of cheating by the Czech team, got beaten, because of politics.

   While I don't know the exact details of the situation, I understand that at the Motocross Des Nations in the U.K. some years back, there were incidents where riders from the European teams, were assisted in getting up very muddy, nearly impassable hills, were the Americans, were actually hampered in their progress. As I mentioned, I don't know all the details, but the media had it pretty much pegged, in saying that the Europeans were sick of the Americans beating the hell out of them at the MX Des Nations, and here was a way to "even the playing field".

    I hope I have been able to shed some light on dirtbike's questions, and I apologize if this has gotten way to long for anyone to follow, but once I get on a roll, I'll take it all the way home. For those of you who have stuck with me to the end, thank you.

Dane Leimbach

[rob w]

Dane, Oh I kept with you til the end, and I could have kept reading you though the entire night. !!Applause!!
Bob

[Dwight Rudder]

Dane, you missed the part about in 1982 that one of the Czechoslovakian team members houred out on day 5 and this was noted by seveal teams. He didn't even arrive at the finish check. BUT the next morning his bike was in impound and his score card was stamped at every check.  Hummmmmm. If he had been DNFed as would have be proper we would have won the World Trophy. Sad.
Cher'o,
Dwight Rudder
one of the 8 Americans out of 36 that finished that tough event.

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[OUCWBOY]

Very interesting topic and follow up posts. One thing I miss on motocross is when you went out and found some land. Tooks some stakes and ribbon, put the stakes in the ground, ran the bibbon between the stakes and...........................presto a great motocross track. Better that all the supercross tracks ever built. I attended the 1st stadium cross in LA and after it was over, I told my wife that was the end of motocross as we knew it. And I was right. Look at what they've done to the class C racing too.

Donny Smith

[atk114]

I too have enjoyed following this topic. This may be off the orginal subject, but I miss the days of the Inter-Am and Trans-Am. It was great to "all the best" (american & european) riders on the track at the same time.

I know this may be un-popular, but I would like to see the supercross series go away. It seems to me, most of the racing (for the lead) is over after the 1st turn. I would like to see a 16 race National Champion Series(March - July), with two 30 minute + 2 lap moto's for each class. Then, have a 10-12 race Tran-Am Series in the Fall. Have the Europeans come to race here as in the past. I'm sure it would result in some great racing!

I know that this will never come to pass, way to much money in supercross, plus, it does have a very large following, but it's fun to think about.

Thank for listening.


Keith R. Larson

[OhioTed]

I consider myself very fortunate to have become involved with POG, primarily because of all you fine folks.  Having kicked around for some time, trying to locate a motorcycling group that I am "in tune" with, I know now that I have definitely found it.  As has been aptly demonstrated by the insightful replies to this post, POG members are as a whole, intelligent, considerate, knowledgable, and well spoken, especially Dane.  Can we convince you to run for public office, Mr. L?  All kidding aside, kudos to you all.  Proud to amo:)ng you.
TED

[Mick Milakovic]

I would hate to see supercross go away, which it won't.  I agree that most events are very cookie cutter, ie. over after the first turn, but two weekends ago I saw Mike Larocco win at Indy, and it was a great experience for me and my kids:  hometown racer wins the big one against all odds, takes his son for a parade lap and then gives all the credit to the fans for supporting him.  Made me feel good to be a part of it.

[atk114]

I was thinking after I posted in this topic earlier, maybe instead of supercross going away (I agree, it won't), include a few supercross races as part of the National Champion Series. This could be the best of both worlds.

The Mike Larocco win was great, and I'm sure it was a great time. I've been to a few supercrosses, and had a blast, but have always enjoyed the outdoor races more. Thanks for the input, as I mentioned before, it's fun to think about.

Keith R. Larson

[tmte123]

We had arenacross here (Pac. NW), last weekend (Tacoma Dome).  I felt a slight pull to go watch, but I had to ask myself why.  I don't like the bikes, the course, the glitz, the "be there, be there, be there" marketing, etc.  I guess bikes on dirt was the attraction but it ended there.  
We are really lucky to have the Vintage Dirt Racing NW Series.  9 races from Sept. to April.  (#8 coming up tomorrow)  At these, I see, the real soul of motocross.  People racing without sponsors, on bikes they love, for the sheer pleasure of doing so.  Tommorrow will be my first race ever, on my trusty '75 XL-250.  A rookie at 52.  Next year, I hope to be racing on a Penton.  Hopefully on a 250 Hare Scrambler that will be ready by the ISDT-RR. YeeeHaaa!

Not a Penton owner, but soon to be one (fingers crossed) I have ridden one..Tomale's MC-5.  Currently ride a '75 XL-250, '78 TT500

[tomale]

I agree that supercross may never go away. It is a drug we can not shake. I would and this I think must absolutly happen, is that we put some kind of limits on the heights and lenghts of the jumps. I am sure that there are other things that could and should be considered but thoses come to mind. What would have happened if NASCAR did not do what it did do and continues to do. Men were dying...good men, men with families....
I love to see Men like Mike Larocco out there, still competive after all these years. Continuing to race knowing that He will not win as often as he use to. The Man has character.
It is sad that races are won or lost not by the best teams or individuals but because of politics and business intanglements.
Why are infractions of the rules even taken to a commitee, If there is some doubt then fine but when it is clear and it still goes to a commitee anyway?, It sounds fishy to me. If someone needs to cheat to win, what have they really Won?

Thom Green,I own and ride a 76 250 MC5 MX which I bought new.

[Speedy]

quote:Originally posted by dirtbike

Please, no misaimed reactions to this. It's a discussion (question) with a smile behind. :-)

I often run into something that feels real odd. I can hardly read my Dirtbike Mag or anything without the story turning into how heroic the american rider/team or whatever where facing those cheating europeans.
Well, the question. Who are they?

Let me put it this way. If all of you living in america always read something like how (this or that) you pacific riders where. Meaning of course americans, japanese and chilenian riders grouped together.
Wouldn't you feel disconnected?

This grouping of euro riders (or teams or events) would at least in some way assume that there where a single rider that considered himself "european" in some way or at least where aware that he/she could be grouped together in some context.
The news, I think is, there isn't!

Yelling "hey you", addressing a group seems a bit redicoulus since there is no group. At least no individuals considering themselves as part of a group or even remotely able to assume that they ever could be bunched together with complete strangers by someone.

I mean, like a finnish person would cheer an Italian rider in favour of an american. Completely nonsense!

It disturbs me a bit reading about it all the time. Where does it come from?

AS LONG AS YOU LOVE DIRTBIKING AT ANY FORM YOU ARE MY BUDDY.
Does not matter where you from.
Cheers,Speedy---->>>>>>>>

Helmut Clasen KTM
162 Hillcrest Ave
L9H 4Y3
Dundas Ontario Canada
Ph.905-627-5349
[email protected]
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
Sachs GP-GS 250-7A reeds
Zuendapp 125 GS ISDT repl.73
KTM 450 EXC Auto.03
Duke spec.Edit,1996
Adventurer 02