ahrma in turmoil again

[DKWRACER]

SIEGE, your post is exemplary, well documented and well written.
Trying to sift thru all of the info, is a burden, and yet, there is a piece of information there.
AHRMA does have some tasks at hand...last year at Two Rivers, the National Trials was held after the PV on Sat. afternoon to accomodate the PV riders who wished to compete in the Trials, several Trials riders from outta state left, due to the lenghty journey home.
That very year, I tried to compete in the trials after going WFO in PV.
It would be fair to say, that I did not do so well, but it was a choice, an element of risk mgmnt.

In order to finish first, then first I must finish.......

Packing all these into one event for all is, with risks.

I would prefer fair events...at least give us a chance!
For someone to say PV's ruin the track for vintage is a silly excuse.

Regional coordinators should know what is happening in their region.

To hear stories, from track owners, that they will not deal with AHRMA....is not good....

Like you said, "we are AHRMA" and I do pay my dues, they do have feduciary responsiblities.......
If you should find the time, perhaps a very short dissertation on what happened in your Region, but that is up to you, and I will not press the issue.

? is, is this happening in other Regions?
I don't know, but there are masters out there, trying to bring all of us quality events.......

Thanks for your efforts!

Respectfully,

Tom Brosius

[Ernie Phillips]

I have a vested interested in AHRMA succeding.  I have these old bikes and I want to race.  I attended my first event at Combs this past weekend.  There was a lot of hard work involved by the organizers and my experience with AHRMA staff was good - new member #s, pre-entry.  We (6 riders) had a great time.  4 of us including myself are new AHRMA members.  My son, Christopher, just turned 16 (and I had to prove it via a birth certificate submitted to AHRMA).  I would not be involved in this sport at this time unless Christopher could participate.  Keeping younger riders on the sidelines until age 16 is a bad deal.  I hope AHRMA will do something to let the kids participate.  It will make the sport stronger.  And, a special thanks to those of you who took the time to speak to Christopher at the Combs event.  Youth and inexperience is a good thing!  Share you knowledge and passion with the next generation or it will be lost.  That would be a shame.

Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN

[pketchum]

Ernie,

It was my distinct pleasure to meet you and your son at the ISDT Vintage Qualifier this weekend.  I was one of the guys working tech and rode my (new to me) '76 Hercules 175GS/7A that Helmut "Speedy" Clasen built for Burchard Lenz for the 2003 ISDT Reunion Ride in Dalton.  

I spoke to you and your son as you were leaving.  Christopher sure seemed to like what he was doing 'cause he had this gleam in his eyes.  I sincerely look forward to meeting you guys again on the trail.  I don't agree with AHRMA on the kids rule either and am part of the Missouri Vintage Motocross scene.  Living in Kansas City does have its rewards (besides the BBQ).

However, I have to disagree with DKWRACER on one point.  I ride both Vintage, Historic, and Post Vintage bikes regularly.  I do notice that after the PV guys have had their turn at the track there are large whooped out sections before/after each turn.  So, I feel the vintage bikes should be run BEFORE the post vintage bikes.


Phil Ketchum

[ossaracer]

Siege -   Your webvsite and story of "the state of Vintage" is a masterpiece!!!   Too bad it is a REAL story of the sad, sad state of affairs and underhanded dealings fomr "the dick mann block"   You and your team were sincere and wanting to try an dmake a difference and grow AHRMA.  Instead the only thing you got was PV is an outcast group and we dont want your kind.   Amazing, pathetic is all I can say.

Well, the no-youth, no support clsses mandate is noew a line in the sand,  stay tuned!!

Terry Gates
AHRMA Classic 125 racer
Penton 125 Six Days (2)
Penton 175 Jackpiner
Penton 250 Harescambler (wannabe!!)

[SIEGE]

a few thoughts boys-

first hey Tom - thanks for the kind words;
there is a balance- we (H&T) do trials before the GP, then V & PV one one day, and works out perfect.

Ernie- don't worry man- Vintage is healthy- if Ahrma goes down something else will appear.

Phil- yeah, for sure I have been to whooped out tracks- E-Street in CA was like that, and no fun to ride on- of course we were there with modern bikes- but also at the Farm which for some reason is the Holy Grail of tracks around here- also VERY whooped out sections- with no Evo bikes in sight- choice of track is the key, not excluding a section of the racing crowd

ANYWAY the ISSUE isn't any of that stuff- tracks/kids/time/viability (sic)

it's the heavy hand. I saw Schwarzkopf talk years ago after DStorm1- and the one thing I remembered that he said was you tell your commanders to lead.

You don't tell them HOW to lead.

and that's a great deal of the problems with all this Ahrma Mess. We were doing fine. But they had to keep on calling to say we couldn't do this. And we couldn't run that. And finally they took me out as the regional leader so their guy could be in there instead.

Whatever. I'm going to have some free time to BUILD MY KTM.
know what I mean?  :-)

Jon- I had stop by the airport yesterday    - to get some big seals for the steering stem.
the lady behind the counter said she used to have a Hodaka....


SIEGE

[tomale]

seige, It is not a KTM it is a PENTON.... and I am looking forward to helping you getting it put together.
It is a sad affair indeed to see the kindgarden approach to vintage racing.. " it is my ball and I make the rules or I won't let you play " I came to the table hoping that we could work out the differences (it is why I joined with seige on the a team) and I heard what I thought was a glass half full attitude,but the actions were quite different, still I think there are some good people involved in ahrma. And I have trouble believing anything that has been said by ahrma anymore..... It really is a shame.. I am still looking for reasons to renew my dues...

Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (finished project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)

[imported_n/a]

I am tired of the AHRMA/Dick Mann bashing.  People seem to run from internet site to internet site screaming that the the sky is falling.

AHRMA was started to promote vintage racing.  Youth racing and modern classes have nothing to do with this.  There are many other groups, like VDR and American Retrocross, that provide all of this.  I would not call them vintage racing groups.  They have great racing and have some vintage classes.  Nothing wrong with that, its is just a different goal.

Dick Mann.  Terry Gates posted this on another web site:
"dick mann planned a boycott premier and classic event on the same day".  This quote refers to a race in Oregon that happened on the same day as a National in another region about 1000 miles away.  The post says that it was the same reason and the intent was to hurt the attendance at the National.  I was at the race at the Crooked River Ranch in Terrebone OR.  There was no boycott, just a great event in a very cool place.

PNW Region.  When I first read Seige's post on what happened it made me both angry and sad.  There are two sides to every story, so I asked Ed Parsons about it last weekend at Crooked River.  I could tell Ed was pretty annoyed with the versions of the story that are circulating the net.  In his view events like Washougal are very simple.  Why would you have an AHRMA sanctioned event at Washougal when you don't require AHRMA membership?  It is either an AHRMA event or not.  AHMRA did not stop the event, they just said it is not an AHRMA event.  Seige also asks why Madras went away.  What I heard was the property changed hands.  Not an AHRMA problem.

There is room enough for AHRMA and groups like VDR.  If the mid-west is better served by something closer to VDR, then that is what they should have.  Mitch Winder is a good guy.  The Trustees of AHRMA are too.

[chicagojerry]

george, i started this thread here and on other discussion boards to let everyone know of the situation that has arisen from the board of trustees of ahrma sending out an edict to all the regional coordinators that they must cease having youth (younger than 16) classes at their regional events. i attend a lot of ahrma events from as far west as phoenix to the east coast, so i can answer first hand that this is a very unpopular decision that may cause serious  defections of some of the regions. one of the strongest, the midwest, has already jumped ship. i mentioned this earlier. i love ahrma and the racing and comraderie that it brings. i have made some of the best friends of my life since joining a few years back. i ran for trustee of ahrma last fall and though unsucessful by a few votes, i intend to run again in the fall. i hate to see the organization splintered by defections of the regions. it will hurt the organization as a national sanctioning body if the regions drop out and it will have a ripple effect of members not renewing their memberships. is ahrma in turmoil again over this issue? you better believe it. i personally am not bashing ahrma, i'm trying to do something that unfortunately the board has not been very good at, communicating with other members.
   regional coordinators ran youth classes and modern support classes at their events to be able to field enough entrants to justify  the promotor to have us race at their facility. having attended many vintage/post vintage regional races with low turnouts i can see the justification. and there were never multiple modern or mini classes (at least not at the ones that i was at) but were truly just a support class to bring in a few more riders to allow the track owner to at least break even.
 as far as the washougal race, the ahrma board would not agree to a joint sanction with any other organization or agree to even consider a weekend membership. yet depending on the venue or event they have allowed that before. i believe that kind of narrow outlook prevents us from being able to garner high profile tracks and events such as washougal. but that is the boards right, but speaking for myself, i'm attempting to nudge them to be a little more open-minded. a few others aren't quite as diplomatic.     chicago jerry

[brian kirby]

quote:Originally posted by George Vadney

AHRMA was started to promote vintage racing.  Youth racing and modern classes have nothing to do with this.

Kids didnt race in the '70s? Thats news to me, I remember racing a lot on my XR75 in the 70s as a kid, both enduros and motocross. I dont particularly like kids racing modern bikes at AHRMA races, but why not allow a kids vintage class? This is exactly the kind of closed minded short sighted thinking that will hasten AHRMAs decent into oblivion.

We are talking about the American HRMA. What contribution did the Premier class bikes make to AMERICAN racing? I know for a fact that the XR75 and the kids that cut their teeth on it in the early '70s had a thousand fold more impact on AMERICAN racing than those british dinosaur bikes that the Trustees covet so much.

Just to be clear, I am not anti-AHRMA, nor anti-Trustee. I do think they have made poor decisions and that this next year is a pivotal moment in AHRMA history. I desperately want AHRMA to succeed, but in my opinion the worst case scenario is playing out.

Brian

[DKWRACER]

Brian, the latest VV has brought us a decision. It was an article by Jeff Smith. In it, he brought an edict by AHRMA, not to allow youth participation............... As I recall, I was once a youth...my own snot, was the only thing that got in my way.......

It was AHRMA's decision to do this, they are taking away the youth of America today.

And, in addition, they might have taken regional quality events as well.
Why punish, regional events...

The banner of AHRMA, should not punish us....

They should promote the youth of America today, and not under threat of litigation...

Sorry, but I do tend to dream a-lot.

Tom Brosius
AHRMA # 2186
AMA # 321962
POG # 136

[tomale]

I don't know where the idea that Siege has bashed anyone is odd to me, and where did we get the idea that just because we have disagreed with anyone, is somehow bashing anyone is a strange idea. I wish more people would have been at the trustees meeting two years ago at Chehalis. Mr. Mann rip us all a new one and why did he do this, we repectfully disagreed with him, yes I mean respectfull!!!! I wanted to believe that ahrma really wanted the best for our sport. but Chahalis was the beginning of my slipping confindence.  I have been here for all the nonsense that has happened up here in the PNW and I can tell you that what Siege has said is true. It is clear to us that the riders of the northwest wanted youth involved in vintage racing amoung other things. Change is alway hard but we must change or we will die.. I have no wish to see Ahrma go away I feel that it has alot to offer but neither can I stand by and say nothing. There is no doubt that Mr. Mann is a great motorcyclist. but he is a mere mortal like the rest of us and he too can be wrong. our beloved sport is changing and there is nothing that any of us can do about that, but what we can do is see the signs and change where and when we need to. To say that kids have no room in vintage racing is short sighted, to say that we can not get  insurance for them is either a ball face lie or is at the very least an unwillingness to try and make room to the next generation. If it was so impossible then why have so many seemed to find away to make it happen. There use to be a time that I believed what ahrma told me but recent events has only demostrated to me my own foolishness in believing them... the issue with the youth is a prime example.
At this point, I have almost now confindence in Ahrma's ability to do anything but maintain the statis quo... and that saddens me greatly.

Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)
75' GS400 (finished project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)

[Dwight Rudder]

A lot of the problem with kids racing in my opinion is the destruction of bikes and minibikes that can't be replaced. I think a solution to that would be to have a Chinese company make a replica of the Honda SL70 and that would not be hard to do as they still manufacture Z50, CT70, SL70, 90 and 110cc engines that they currently put into pitbikes that are dangerous in my opinion because the wheels are too small to be stable with the riders that are riding them.  Imagine a SL70 with a 110cc engine and manual clutch. A great training tool for upcoming young riders that could ride at vintage events.  The bikes could be cheap to buy and maintain. Parts would be plentyful.  Just an idea .
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[thrownchain]

You mention the destruction of bikes and mini bikes that can't be replaced. Isn't that true to some extent with any "vintage" bike? Parts for most if not all brands are becoming harder to find and more expensive as a result.
I think a vintage kids class would be the way to go. Honda XR 75s, XL, XR 70s, 80s, Yamaha JT 60s, 80s, it'd be like On Any Sunday all over again. It would be a way to teach the next generation of riders the value of the bikes and a good way to make it a family outing.

[t20sl]

In reply to Dwight's last comment "parts would be plentifull".  I disagree.  Working at a Honda dealership we see about 3-5 people a week looking for Chinese parts.  Only one distributor in the whole of the USA that I know of and they don't go by part number but by a description.  Dwight you are out of touch with the current Chinese problem.  Over 147 manufacturers in China, with no concern about suppling parts.  This will have a huge negative effect on future sales.  Once a parent buys a piece of junk from china, can't get the simplist of parts, do you really think that they will come back and trust a Japanese dealer?  As far as parts interchainging with Honda or Yamaha.  No.  Had a piston out of a 50cc Chinese bike with an engine looking identical to the Honda Z50.  Piston was 2mm smaller and the wrist pin was smaller.  Dealers selling the Chinese bikes would like us to think the parts are the same because it helps them sell their junk.

[chicagojerry]

these types of open discussions are what ahrma needs to open its ears to. there can be varied opinions on how best to proceed with youth classes, but instead the board refuses to allow ANY youth RACING. with this i strongly disagree. but does anyone know that ahrma DOES in fact allow youth events? they just don't openly discuss it or address it in their mandate that they sent to the regional coordinators. i have quite a few names of significantly younger than 16 riders that are ahrma members who have participated at ahrma NATIONAL events, not just regionals. they ride in trials, and while i certainly hope that they get to continue doing so, i fail to understand how the board can knowingly allow that to continue while stating that other youth classes in the off-road factions are unacceptably risky.  
LET THE KIDS RACE, not just ride trials!
i'm going to submit some other rule change proposals for the new rulebook updates, but i won't waste my time submitting one for youth racing this year. the current sitting board will still be dealing with all submitted rule changes, and they will be the same folks that rendered this current edict. if i can win the election for trustee in the fall, the votes against youth racing will no longer be unanimous.
[B)]  chi jer