Non E-10 Gasoline

[desmond197]

Is there a web site that tells you where you can get non ethanol laced gasoline. Race gas is hard to find in my area and I was wondering if there was a web site that told you where to get it. E-10 gas destroyed my OSSA tank. I had it sealed with Caswells and it still bubbled the paint. I drained the tank after riding too. A friend has a factory MV Augusta 750 and it disolved his factory race tank.

I know guys with classic boats have a problem with E-10 as well.

[firstturn]

Also, some of this gas is damaging original Penton fiberglass tanks if the gas is left in there over several weeks.  Bubbles appear between the raw fiberglass and the gelcoat.  It is a problem.  If I find a source or web site I will let you know.

Ron Carbaugh

[Rocket]

Not sure if this would help or not, drain the tank and leave the cap off to let the fumes evaporate also.
Rocket

[brian kirby]

Run race fuel, its expensive and possibly not needed for the octane but it will not have Ethanol in it. Plus it stores a LOT longer than pump fuel.

Brian

'73 Berkshire

[desmond197]

I have used just race gas for years. My local supplier is no more and I do not want a whole barrel of the stuff to store in the shop.
I thought sealing the tank it would be OK but it eats the Caswell stuff as well from looking at posts on the OSSA forum.

Good tip about keeping the cap off that is what got me.

[john durrill]

desmond,
 This may start another flurry of posts but chuckle chuckle, You can use av gas. The low led 100 or 110 ? We used it for several years in the early 90's in a 79 KTM 400. It works and should be available at any small air port. We were using Golden Spectro for oil. That was  an important factor .
 Some of the POGers had problems with Av gas using certain types of oil.
 Kent used it in his race bikes and did very well with it so..... it must be certain types of oil ( Castor base or those containing Castor oil ?) can cause engine damage.
 Another thing to try is check with a local boat shop. Some of them use fiberglass tanks and have had to line the boat tanks with something because of the new fuel mixes available at the pumps.
 Last thing , we have been considering is Epoxy. Line our stock tanks with a thin layer of epoxy resin.
 Anyone in the group tried this yet? It would mean mixing up some of the slow setting epoxy and rolling the tank around till it has deposited a layer over the entire surface inside.
 John D.

[brian kirby]

Caswell is epoxy resin.

Brian

'73 Berkshire

[john durrill]

Brian ,
Epoxy is listed as ethanol prof right? Wonder whats up. Guess we need the list of the chem make up for the type used in our pump gas and then contact the epoxy makers to see what could be used?
Thats very bad news, thank you
John D.

[454MRW]

I luckily haven't had any problems with any of mine, possibly because I use the same Marathon premium gas each time, and Golden Spectro oil, but plan on coating a test tank with POR-15 clear coating, that is impervious to all chemicals and is very easy to use. Mike

Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S

[firstturn]

Rod,
  Good point about taking the gas cap off.  I normally loosen it over night if I am going to ride the bike two or three days in a row.  What Brian said about self life of current pump gas is true.  My Friends in the chainsaw business and go karts only keep pump gas for only two weeks....very sad.  Thanks Rod for setting me straight again[].

Ron Carbaugh

[brian kirby]

John, I dont believe ethanol will harm Caswell or any other epoxy. If there were any gaps in the Caswell, even tiny ones, it will travel behind the epoxy and permeate the fiberglass.

Ron, two weeks without Sta-bil or some other fuel prep is all current pump gas is good for.

On Avgas, Harry Klemm's company Group-K has a good article on fuel and covers avgas:

ABOUT AVIATION FUELS - Aviation gasoline (or "av gas") is blended specifically for use in small aircraft. It's also commonly used by many high performance engine owners because of it's high stated octane rating (usually 100-110) and the relatively low price compared to racing fuel. Unfortunately this fuel is not all it appears to be. Avgas octane is rated on a different scale than gasoline's intended for ground level use. What is 100 octane "av", is not necessarily 100 octane "ground level". Besides this, there is also a big chemical difference. Normal ground level race fuels are made up of gas molecules that have a "light end" and a "heavy end". The light end of the molecule ignites easily and burns quickly with a low temperature flame (as a piece of thin newspaper would burn). The heavy end of the molecule is not so easily ignited, but it burns with a much more intense heat (as an oak log would). This heavy end of the gasoline molecule is responsible for the hotter, more powerful part of the combustion process.

Small aircraft are constructed as very weight conscious vehicles. That's because their somewhat weak engines often have difficulty taking off with any extra weight. To help reduce this weight problem, aviation gasoline's are blended with no heavy molecule end. This makes a gallon of avgas weigh substantially less than a gallon of ground level fuel. Since small plane engines turn very low rpms and produce so little power, the omission of the heavy end is not a horsepower issue. However, for high output pwc racing engines, there is defiantly a compromise in power. This, despite the fact that many pwc owners experience the desirable cooler operating temperatures that avgas offers. In addition, some blends of avgas will quickly separate from some oils used in premix situations. For the above reasons, we do not recommend the ongoing use of 100% avgas, and we will not prepare any "avgas" engine kits.

Despite all this bad news, running avgas (accepting the slight power loss) is usually a better choice than burning down a high output engine on regular pump gas. In this situation, the best choice is usually a 50/50 mix of pump and avgas. That provides "some" heavy molecule ends for the engine.

This is in reference to Personal Watercraft but it applies to vintage bikes too, especially the cooling affect for the air cooled engines. I think the ideal solution would be 25% race fuel/75% avgas or 50/50 because avgas is not much more than pump gas, and both avgas and race fuel store for long periods with no problems.

Brian

'73 Berkshire

[firstturn]

Brian,
  I haven't checked with the motor lab (where I used to work) to get any insides on this new problem.  Al I can say is some of my friends add Sta-Bil to any gas that is used for small engines.  That way it is already dispersed in the gas.  I have used stabil for years in our construction saws with no problems.
  I think you are correct about the epoxy, but once the gas gets under the sealer all college explanations are out the window and you have a mess on your hands.  The person that does my tanks turns them for hours and one still messed up.  It is a problem and I like av and Hi Po gas with a touch of lead....but I am out of lead now.

Ron Carbaugh

[brian kirby]

I agree Ron, its a mess for sure fi the Caswell doesnt coat completely.

That article was from '96-'97 when it was easy to find non-ethanol fuel, now in some states like Alabama its illegal to sell fuel that does NOT contain 10% ethanol. The most cost effective way to get non ethanol fuel that will also store well and keep an air cooled engine running cooler is a blend of avgas and some flavor of race fuel, thats what I plan to do soon.

Brian

'73 Berkshire

[Gavin Housh]

Who new that Bush and his ethanol friends would get their dirty little hands all the way into our Penton tanks! Ethanol in pump gas is just another government scam. Just like Coca Cola using corn syrup to make cola. Another rip off that lines the pockets of the wealthy corprate elite. Coke is made with cain sugar in Europe, and tastes like the coke I remember as a kid. Corn should be eaten not just divided up to see how much greed can come from it. I think we should all stop eating Corn flaks too. I mean if Michael Phellps hits the Bong a few times wouldn't that promote eating more flakes? These people that are puting corn in our fuel are the same people that sent our jobs outside this country. Wake up people and arm yourselves for the future! Whether that means arming yourselves with a pen or a gun that's up to you. [xx(]

[tomale]

Wow Gavin!

Thom Green,Still crazy after all these years!
76' 250 MC5 (orginal owner)74'
250 hare scrambler (project bike)
72'sixday (project bike)