Oil capacity

[dirtbike]

In my 400 MINT engine which I think was from 1976, mounted in my 1979 400 replica I am a bit confused regarding the oil capacity.

The Penton Instruction book for the 175, 250 and 400 says on page 10:
"To fill, use either of the two plugs on top of the engine cases (1, fig 23) and put in two quarts of Hi-Point Gear Lube. Check crankcase vent (2, fig 23) for obstructions. ATF (automatic transmission fluid) will facilitate clutch release.

There is a level check plug located underneith the kick starter. Oil must flow from this; however we are adding more oil than just to the level plug. The transmission will work with 1400cc filled up to level plug."

The chart on page 2 says: 1 quart of Hi-Point Gear Lube.

So, the chart on page 2 says 1 quart. The explaining text on page 10 says 2 quarts yet there is only 1.5 qt required up to the level plug.

I have leaned the bike slighly towards the right side so it rests on the handlebar and filled up until it poured out of the level hole. I should have a bit more in the engine since it's leaned a bit to the other side. I only use ATF.

How would you interpret the instructions above? And are there any other known best practices to consider?

[JP Morgen]

Congratulations on your very nice restoration. In all my bikes, vintage or modern, I use Red Line Lightweight Shockproof gear oil. In the old KTMs, one quart is plenty. This oil is exceptional, it sticks to all the internal parts, and makes a noticeable difference in shifting performance. One note of caution: it may make your clutch slip if you have the sintered bronze clutch plates, but won't bother normal plates. I just raced a bike last season in 12 motos and many practice sessions without realizing the drain plug had fallen out!! Still shifted well, and no damage noticeable when I disassembled the motor.

[dirtbike]

JP Morgen, I have the sintered plates old style clutch. There are about as many opinion about oils as there are oils. Most people claim that what they use is best. That is because most oils do work just fine.

I have used ATF for years and the clutch works excellent. No slip and no drag, just a smooth predictable engagement. It's cheap and I have never seen any wear on the wheels or cogs that is unormal or seem to be due to the oil. It never looses viscosty and the engine is clean on the inside. I'm sure that there are better oils but ATF does the job 100% for me.

[454MRW]

I read just a while back on Marks swap meet about an old timer that used fresh ATF in their Elsinore during practice and drained the trans for the actual moto to cut down on drag, and did this on a regular basis with no detrimental effects. Not that I recommend this type of activity... I run type F ATF in my KTM's and Can Am's and GN-4 in my new Hondas and RM & PE Suzukis. Mike

Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S

[tooclose racing]

Okay "experts"  I think you missed his question - he's basically asking the site how much tranny oil does the 250/400 (175 also?) gear box hold?  2 quarts, 1.5 quarts, or 1 quart?  Enquiring minds want to know!

I'm curious too...I'll be doing an oil change on my MC5 before winter comes and I don't have a service manual.  I know with my Sachs, I DO lean it just a little bit to the right and fill until the level plug overflows.  I have no idea what the capacity is on the Sachs, but this seems to work and I remember someone saying a little overfill doesn't hurt.

Thank you Poggers for your feedback. [:I]

[hankthecrank]

Hi guys. Doug Wilford recommended to me that I use 700 cc in my Sachs 125. My old Sachs manual says 800cc but it will blow out the vent or the clutch cable hole unless its sealed up. 700cc works fine.I also use Golden Spectro. The clutch slips some when cold but when warmed up it works fine.

Hank Rinehart

[454MRW]

The original KTM information changed at some point after 1974:
Initially the manual called for 1 quart in the '74 manual, then was revised at some point to 1.2 Liters, which turns out to be around 1.26 quarts, to 1.6 Liters, which is around 1.69 quarts, which requires leaning the bike over 7 degrees to the right to check the level at the plug. These findings are taken from the Feb. '74 manual, and the april '79 engine manual, and also in my early 1980 (Dec '79), owners manual. Mike

Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
75 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
74 CR250M 07 CR125R & CR150R

[dirtbike]

Thanks for all help.

So, leaning the bike over to the right and fill until it pour out should be ok? hankthecrank, you are ruin your clutch plates for no reason.

As said, I have sintered plates. In my Maico I change the oil very often, every 2 hours +- 30 min maybe. The issue there is the primary chains that wears quickly with contaminated oil. How often should I change the oil on this engine you think? It has 3 times the oil volume and no chains, but plain ATF. 3 hours, 4 hours??

[Kip Kern]

I have ran 1.5 and as much as 2 Qt with no problem.  Bel Ray Gear Saver 75W