AHRMA Cross Country Classes

[Tim Brown]

Not trying to steal Dwight's tread, but the issue is increasing the low attend, and reducing the number of classes the solution. Do I think there are too many classes, sure there are. Do I think it will increase attendance? Probably not. Some will come to finally have some competition, while others will not come because they can't beat someone else.
The sport can benefit tremendously from class restructuring, but include newer bikes. There needs to be a threshold of 15-20 years of age, and each year more bikes will qualify and classes added. If the guy has a 15 year old bike and rides an event, he will soon have a 30 year old bike and ride multiple classes and vintage, as we know it, grows.
I'm 49 now and had bikes in the 70's. A 39 year old began riding in the 80's and don't realize he needs a Mint 400, YET!

[rd400pi]

Hey, I still come to the races even though I can't beat anybody.  Who cares?  I am in the Novice class and will gladly move myself up when I actually beat someone and it isn't because they DNF'd.   I have a great time and like the old bikes/old people.  With kids/commitments/job, making the 3 ISDT/Qualifier type events every year is about all I can manage at this point in my life.  I still dream of the day I can go to as many as you guys do!!  Hope to see you at Meridian.

  Mike H.

[brian kirby]

Vintage racing should not be about winning or losing, its irrelevant, it should be about FUN on old bikes.

Brian

[Dwight Rudder]

The point here is the sillyness of having more classes than riders. More riders will attend as the economy improves. The A & B classes were how we did it back in the 70s. Sometimes just a run what you brung situation with no rider skill separation. I wouldn't personally be against having a kids spec class. Maybe taking the age limit down to 14 for big bikes ?  Younger kid ride a Chinese made SL70.  That way they are riding replica bikes and not originals. IMO. Lesser classes will improve appearances and add to prestige of the events. Make competition better. I don't think it in itself with bring more or cause us to lose riders. It will help with the CC and ISDT type team events. Even MX should look at this but I don't ride enough MX to make that recommendation.  I just know when I do ride MX that there are as many as 3-4 classes lined up on the starting line at the same time. That is crazy if the classes are that small.
Maybe down the road we can have a Pre Modern class. But the main reason not to enclude these bikes is that they are competitive even against current bikes. They may be beat up looking but they are mechanically designed sound and can give a new 2012 bike a run for it's money. It can win with a good rider aboard.  It is coming but that is the reason we don't now. I can take any year XR200R Honda and give the modern bikes a run. I have won my class in H/S on one and even have gotten the holeshot. My class is 45+A. I think we are getting OT here but my proposal is to improve the quality of the events and not meant to hurt anyone.

[derek martin]

In response to Bill; the world seems to be spinning faster starting 2009 -  work demands, etc. limiting time available for AHRMA event participation in my case but I'm going to try to make it to all the ISDT inspired events at a minimum this year. Thanks for your comment on Little Egypt's past events.
Furthering the topic; I'd venture a guess that anything done to increase the competiveness of the AHRMA  CC series would improve attendance as it seemed to be a little more competitive in my earlier years of AHRMA participation and event entry numbers were higher then if my feeble memory serves. The series also was centered in the Midwest then which may or may not have been a factor.
I think Bill Ryburn offered up  a good idea to increase the race time length to 90 minutes. This would work better with longer courses which in my mind's eye a quality longer course increases the rider's perception of getting his money's worth, would allow a promoter to have the shorter B rider course as mentioned earlier and a long course can more readily be shortened or rerouted in the event of heavy rain possibly saving an event.

[Dwight Rudder]

Agree with that thought for sure. 1hr CC / H/S type events is too little. 90 min Plus a lap would be the way to go.

[Tim Brown]

Although I am a woods guy and think that trails can't be too tight, and would welcome a longer race, I respectfully disagree with running 1 1/2 - 2 hours would benefit the association as a whole. I was at the SE Ahrma CC yesterday and Bill and my dad (72 years old), among others, were exhausted after the one hour. They couldn't have safely ridden another 30 min and surely not another hour. Riders and bikes are not new. Most aren't as physically fit as they once were and when you force yourself to ride longer, your chance for injury goes up tremendously.

[Dwight Rudder]

quote:Originally posted by Tim Brown

Although I am a woods guy and think that trails can't be too tight, and would welcome a longer race, I respectfully disagree with running 1 1/2 - 2 hours would benefit the association as a whole. I was at the SE Ahrma CC yesterday and Bill and my dad (72 years old), among others, were exhausted after the one hour. They couldn't have safely ridden another 30 min and surely not another hour. Riders and bikes are not new. Most aren't as physically fit as they once were and when you force yourself to ride longer, your chance for injury goes up tremendously.

There is no reason why if the races were longer that the 60+ and 70+ classes couldn't be stopped at one Hour while the rest ride 90min + 1 lap. Modern races are 2hrs plus a lap. (typically).  Sometimes conditions require shorter races.  Rain or very wet conditions. Or extremely hot conditions for example.

[tooclose racing]

My only comment(s) regarding the longer races are these:  1) at the AHRMA national XC rounds, I like the one hour format because I usually do one race (vintage) in the AM and another in the afternoon (PV); 2) when a regional format has a XC race combined with MX on the same day, limiting the XC race to one hour helps ME make it to the end of the day.  BTW - I have huge respect for modern XC (2 hours)and hope to race in a few of those in the future after I can kill the current Honey Needs List ($$) and buy a modern mount.  As far the GNCC racers that SPRINT on Sunday afternoon for 3 hours - that stuff is like Chariots of the Gods to me.  Wow.  Only ran a few of those (national HS) back in the day - I was not worthy! Hat's off to you Poggers that are still doing that.

Regarding Mr. Rudder's class structure proposal - makes sense to me. I think Novice has a place in our MX racing, not so sure the case can be made for XC.

[Bill Ryburn]

Good comments. The 90 minute or 2 hour format was just a suggestion. Obviously, any change will have both supporters and critics. Just as any change will have pros and cons.
In addition to being very physically demanding for those that ride both Vintage and PV cross country on the same day, and for those of us out of shape and old, it will also present a fuel problem for some bikes.
Tim was right it that I am tired after 1 hour. However, if I were riding a longer event (and I have), I pace myself differently.  I have also been known to pull off when I was starting to make mistakes. We can all make these type of adjustments.
I am not proposing that we change the cross country format to 90 minute events, but to think about trying it once and see what the participants think.
I also have been thinking more about the European handicap system. I understand that you add the age of the rider and the bike, but how do you apply this handicap?  I think I like the idea. Our Age Class system is nothing more than a handicap system, but treats a 59 year old the same as a 50 year old. Why?  Our Age Class system also tends to promote Sportsman/Ultima class bikes. Unless I am missing something, the European handicap system, while imperfect, appears better than our Age Class system. Eliminating age classes would really redcue the number of classes we have. (This system will probably not be endorsed by those 35-40 year olds ridiing 15 year old XR200s.)
Bill Ryburn

[t20sl]

Here is another look at poor turnout.  POOR advertising.  Why doesn't someone have a single site where all vintage events are listed for the whole country.  I know AHRMA has their site but I also know of lots of vintage classes running at local events that I only read about a few days ahead or days after the event was held.  Some peoples' personal schedule changes at the last minute and it would be nice to go to a "vintage event calendar" and see what's coming up that weekend without having to search the whole internet.  Just an idea.
Ted Atkinson

[Dwight Rudder]

Well, I heard from Dave Lambreth and he says the rules committee didn't think much of my recommendation on classes. Sad because we have events that bearly has 50 riders and 51 classes. I guess they probably didn't even read the whole thing. Sad because I don't want the 2Day series to end and I have heard a couple riders say that they aren't interested in competing next year if the rules aren't changed so now we will lose more riders. Too many it seems are more interested in being the only rider in their class rather than the success of the series. I am afraid it will die as it stands. Maybe POG and Vinturo need to go together and form a Vintage Enduro Association and have our own events. It couldn't have fewer riders, IMO.

[brian kirby]

I have been rolling this over in my head for a long time, and after talking to Bill about it, I have changed my mind and decided the classes are not the problem, low turnout is the problem. I do think there are too many classes, but I believe this is a completely separate issue that really has nothing to do with turnout. If we address the issue of low turnout, the too many classes problem goes away.

Brian

[Dwight Rudder]

quote:Originally posted by brian kirby

I have been rolling this over in my head for a long time, and after talking to Bill about it, I have changed my mind and decided the classes are not the problem, low turnout is the problem. I do think there are too many classes, but I believe this is a completely separate issue that really has nothing to do with turnout. If we address the issue of low turnout, the too many classes problem goes away.

Brian

Oh, I don't totally disagree but right now nobody takes us seriously because we have more classes than riders. I think both have to be addressed. Even as I had proposed we would have had 29 classes. Which is more than most enduros have.  I think SERA has 24 classes. NEPG Nationals have 23 classes. SETRA has 28 Classes (too many IMO).
There is no need for C/Beginner classes in VINTAGE racing. That is what the B class is for (intermediate). My proposal would mean there is still classes for every era bike without forcing them in to competeing with more modern style bikes. Anyway , it isn't going to happen. But, it doesn't seem that anyone else has offered any other ideas.

[Dwight Rudder]

We also have to remember that it will be diffecult to greatly increase participation when the riders are getting older as are the bikes. Not everyone likes old bikes like we do.