AHRMA Cross Country Classes

[Dwight Rudder]

Gentleman, This has already been posted on the AHRMA CC forum and the VINDURO.COM Forum so some of you have already seen this. I will be submitting this as a possible rule change at the encouragement of many. I have notice the low turnout at Cross Country events and
how many classes we have for the riders.  I feel the motorcycle
classifications are basically fine but we have way too many rider
classifications for rider participation.  I propose that we reduce the number of classes and rename the rider classifications.  Right now in Cross Country events we are having as few as 60 riders at some events and rarely more than 100. BUT, we have 51 classes !!! Some classes for the 2011 season didn't have any riders and many only had 2 riders. Some only had 1 rider ride more than 1 event. My proposal is to combine some rider classes and reduce the total number of classes to 29. I think we can reclassify riders from Expert to "A" Class and combine Intermediate and Novice to a single "B" class like we had back in the 70's.  Some classes only need a single age or bike classification. Don't call them Expert  or intermediate. Just refer to them as "A" and "B" for cross country events and leave the Expert, Intermediate, and Novice for MX where there are more riders. Many riders only ride one or two events anyway so I don't think that the new classes will scare them away as
they only want to ride and are not serious competitors. Some
Intermediate riders will probably move themselves to "A" Class because of less riders.  It only takes a look at the 2011 results to see what I am talking about.  I will list my proposed classes with the number of riders that rode at least 1 event and in ( ) list how many riders actually rode more than 1 event.
Let me know what you think. I think this can only serve to help AHRMA and Clubs so they are not buying trophys for more riders than they need to and now there will be enough riders in a class that when someone wins a championship that they have more than a participation trophy.
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Premier Class - 8 riders (4)riding more than one event.
Classic A - 6 riders (4)
Classic B - 11 riders (6)
Sportsman 100 A - 6 riders (3)
Sportsman 100 B - 8 riders (3)
Sportsman 200 A - 4 riders (2)
Sportsman 200 B - 10 riders (4)
Sportsman Open A - 13 riders (3)
Sportsman Open B - 16 riders (5)
Vintage +50 A - 12 riders (3)
Vintage +50 B - 18 riders (4)
Vintage +60 A - 10 riders (2)
Vintage +60 B - 11 riders (2)
Vintage +70 - 4 riders (3)
Vintage Women - 4 riders (2)
Historic 200 A - 4 riders (3)
Historic 200 B - 9 riders (3)
Historic Open A - 11 riders (1)
Historic Open B - 23 riders (5)
Post Vintage 200 A - 15 riders (4)
Post Vintage 200 B - 42 riders (12)
Post Vintage Open A - 21 riders (6)
Post Vintage Open B - 44 riders (9)
Post Vintage +50 A - 19 riders (10)
Post Vintage +50 A - 19 riders (10)
Post Vintage +50 B - 41 riders (13)
Post Vintage +60 A - 8 riders (4)
Post Vintage +60 B - 24 riders (11)
Post Vintage +70 - 13 riders (7)
Post Vintage Women - 4 (2)
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Total of 29 classes down from the current 51 classes.  Much more
realistic Classifications. All classes should have at least 2 active riders at each event and at least 4 during the year. In Vintage there will be only 2 -5 riders that will ride more than 1 event. In Post Vintage there will be 1 to 13 riders that will ride more than 1 event. Remember some "B" riders will move to "A" classes because there will be fewer riders in that class.
Let me know what you think.  I think this can only help AHRMA events.
Dwight

[derek martin]

I haven't been a season-long AHRMA competitor since 2009 but was for the six years prior and am a founding member of a former AHRMA CC promoting club so here's my $0.02 worth.  
As a promoter a major goal is to provide a memorable and enjoyable course that competitors feel they've not wasted travel expenses in getting to. What makes this difficult is the range of rider skill present combined with the differing capabilities of the classic bikes compared to the PV bikes. Our club for several years had separate Vintage and PV courses and later in our tenure AHRMA separated the Novice classes out in a separate race. This combination did allow for the potential of having appropriate courses for the varying bikes/skills present. It did make for a lot of work on the promoter's part (we even had different courses for Vintage and PV on Saturday and Sunday) but I felt it was worth it to give the competitor's their money's worth.
To avoid such massive course lay-out work I offer up this possibility: utilizing Mr. Rudder's idea of class consolidation into A and B ; the B riders ride a separate race on a shortened less challenging portion of the A rider course.
There would be four events per day making for a fuller weekend and the additional course layout required would be minimal making life easier on the promoter. PV expert riders would not be riding the same event with slower riders making the racing more enjoyable and safer for both parties.
This same philosophy is being utilized in the GNCC series successfully.

[wfopete]

Dwight,

This subject is almost as frightening as taking a poll as to "which oil to use".

I don't know about others; but I'm all about the competition, it's what makes this fun! Nothing like someone on your tail to make you work a little harder & to make the win a little sweeter. It's possible that this class structure may have been partially motivated by today's belief that "everybody wins something"; a belief that I can't stand.  Just go to any Pee-Wee race and see the irate mom's and dad's if every kid doesn't come away with a little piece of plastic or wood.

I agree with your concern but I have seen endless discussions on this in other venues.  AHRMA is about racing, and when you have almost no competition; that ain't racing.  In fact, as it stands it's almost a joke to win some classes.  Heck, if no one is in your class that day, why don't you just have the promoter give you your award/points and let you load up and go home without putting a tire to the track? I've actually had that happen in modern bike races.

Streamlining the classes should trickle down to streamlining the race day.  It will also have a positive side effect of saving money for the promoters by reducing the trophies required.  

I say go for it Dwight!


Pete Petrick
175 Jackpiner
Slow but Good

[G Ellis]

Run all of us at one time. Just like the old days. A and B. Nothing like getting roosted by a big bore..:D

[SouthRider]

I'm no longer riding - sooo my opinion means little.

But if you are going to consider changing classes why not simply add the age of the bike with the age of the rider and have appropriate classes based on the combined age?

Ie: 1970 bike plus 1960 rider 42 + 52= 94.

Classes could be simply:

A 85-95
B 85-95

Etc.

I believe somthing similar to that is used in Europe.

Other than that everything that Dwight is saying makes perfect sense.

The thought of a "novice" class in vintage racing just never added up to me.

I mean - how many people into old dirt bikes have never ridden before.....

_____________________________________________________________________________________

"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing."

1972 Penton Berkshire 100
1983 Husqvarna 250 XC
2011 Jayco 31.5 RLDS
2009 Chevy 2500 HD Duramax

[Dwight Rudder]

In Europe they add bikes age and riders age and that is the handicap for the rider.  In Europe Burchard Lenz usually rides a 1956 Maico 250.  He wins Overall most of the time. So that system isn't perfect either. I also don't think they break it down more.

[brian kirby]

Dwight has the right idea, we dont need to touch the bike breakdowns we just need to split the rider less by skill.

Brian

[Bill Ryburn]

Another unsolicited opinion.
After several readings, I find three issues presented. 1) Low turnout in Cross Country. 2) Too many classes. 3) Cost of buying too many trophies.
I also see one proposed resolution - Fewer classes by consolidating some classes and eliminating the Novice category.
Good documentation is presented on the number of riders and the number of classes.
However, my opinion is that the cause and effect presented here does not give either a complete analysis or a realistic solution.
First, I agree that we probably have too many classes. Second, I agree that we have less rider turnout than desired. Third, I challenge the opinon that the cost of trophies is a burden on promoters. If it is, then maybe we could charge $3 more if you want to receive a trophy.
I do submit that the cost borne by promoters and the minimum competition in numerous classes has a single underlying cause - low rider turnout. Bring in more riders, the other two issues are resolved.
Subjectively, I submit that the reasons for low turnout are many fold: The economy, health issues, job conflicts, too far away, family conflicts, previous personal commitments, other activity conflicts, type of events, schedule of event, weather, etc.
Regrettably, I have read on this forum of way too many of us having health issues as we age. There was a recent thread about how to reduce the cost of travel. Several forums have mentioned riders having choose between events becuse of back-to-back weekend cometitions.
I for one would like to hear the reasons many of you have stopped participating or only make a few select events. This is the kind of information AHRMA needs.
As for consolidating classes, I have a single objection to Dwight's proposal - and that is the elimination of the Novice class. (And yes, I am a Novice rider and my bias is showing.) I agree that the class is misnamed, but if you believe that moving all Novice riders to a "B" class will increase the number of particiapnts, particularly we marginally skilled riders, then I submit that you are out of touch with what motivates Novice rides to enter and ride these Cross Country events.
My experience regarding riders voluntarily moving themselves up a class is that this just doesn't happen. On the average, only a couple of riders a year move themselves up, and this is generally riders that are new to AHRMA and automatically start as an Intermediate. Conversely, about 3 times this number petition to move down a skill level. (I know of 3 so far this year.)
So, I ask this questions of the readers of this forum: Would you particiapte in more events if we had fewer classes and just "A" and "B" skill levels?
Dwight, you attend about 1/3 of the AHRMA CC events each year. Is your limited participation due to "too many classes" or something else?
Derek, you stated that you are no longer a season long competitor. Is this because of "too many classes", having Novice riders on the course, or something else? And by the way, many thnaks for all your work over the years in putting on some terrific events!
Pete, the record shows you particiapte in several events each year. Wuld you be coming to ore if we had fewer classes? And are you going to voluntarily move yourself to "A" if we elimate the Novice category?
Gary, we don't see you enough. Would you come more often if we had fewer classes?  I would also expand on your suggestion and suggets we try an old time "run what you brung" event. No "A" or "B", just AHRMA legal bikes.
SouthRider, are you no longer competing becaause of "too may classes," or is here another reason you are no longer riding?
And Brian, who is as fierce a competitor as we have and will ride any bike (as long as it is a left side shift) is your limted participation due to "too many classe" (or is becuse of idiot Novices like myself and your uncle?)
Folks, I am not trying to stir up a controversy, but Dwight is absolutely correct in that have a low ride turnout in AHRMA cross country. We need to find out "WHY" in order to make an informed change in the program.
What not try some differnt formats. How about a winter race? The European handicap format sounds like a fun concept to try. Why not 90 minute or two hour runs?  What about one of several "team" concepts?  You got us thinking Dwight. Let's hear some more suggestions.
We POG members are the proud sponsors of this series. Bring forth your ideas to make it better.

Respectfully
Bill Ryburn

[Mick Milakovic]

For me, it's all about finances.  Haven't had a raise in 3 years but the cost of living goes up for EVERYTHING.

Mick

[Dwight Rudder]

Bill,  You just can't have more classes than riders.  Look at the participation turnout.  Pitiful. Will having more classes bring out more riders ?  No, it won't. The B class has always been the "NOVICE" class. There are no true beginner riders riding Vintage. Do you think it would be better to eliminate bike classes and keep the 3 rider class breakdowns ?  I sure don't. I think AHRMA has done a pretty good job on that. Not perfect but good. I think that having only 1 rider in a class or only 1 rider who rides more than 1 race is terrible. I don't think in those cases that combining Intermediate and Novice to "B" will hurt anything and actually make getting a trophy mean something. (what the Hell is "Intermediate" anyway ?) I don't think that you go to these events just to get a trophy. If that was the case, I think you would let us know and we could bring trophies to give out before the event begins. (Just being silly here)
 They might think about giving finisher ribbons to everyone who finishes like they used to do. That would be cheap and give everyone who rides something to remember the event by. Yes, I know that turnout is down for the reasons you stated but keeping too many classes sure hasn't helped and there were too many classes even when we got 100 or even 150 riders. Nat'l Enduros don't even have but about 23 classes and that is with 500-600 or more riders. I don't thin having fewer classes will hurt either.
As for questioning me on my Vintage bike participation. I still compete in the SERA Enduro and H/S series (my wife is SERA Sec/Tres for past 6 years). I am also an active competitor in the National Enduro series. I have had some major physical setbacks the past 10 years but I still try. I just am not capable of going as fast as I used to. I have had major balance and cordination issues the past year. BUT, I havent' given up. I try to ride as many Vintage events as I can. These are actually play riding to me. I get to pretend I am 18 years old again buy dressing up and riding the old bikes. I still like to win but I am there for the fun of hanging with the likes of you and others here.  Hey anyone can think of a better solution for making CC events more viable please chime in. But I think we would have to have 10 times the particapation we have now to even think we needed 51 classes. I have had several even say we need fewer than the 29 I have suggested.  Like making the age classes just one class not 2 each. BUT, I personally think that wouldn't help.  Maybe those who only ride 1 event a year might just try to ride 2 or 3 just so we can see you more often. We are not asking you to ride 80% of the events. Just a few.

[wfopete]

I don't remember what the class structure was in the early '70's for CC events but perhalps it would work here.

Anyway, to answer your questions:

Q.) Pete, the record shows you particiapte in several events each year. Would you be coming to more if we had fewer classes?

Probably not. Although I agree that there are too many classes, that issue does not impact how many events I'll be attending. My motivations for attending events are:

Location
Quality of the event
Camaraderie
Thrills per Buck Ratio (I like 2 Day events) or events that combine MX and CC.

Much of this motivation is predicated on dollars availabile.  More money, more riding.

Right now I'm planning on attending these events:

Diamond Dons National (Location, Quality & combined events)
ISDT Qualifiers I and II (Camaraderie, Location, 2 Day event)
ISDT Reunion Ride (Camaraderie, Quality, Location, 2 Day event)
Unadilla (Quality & combined events)
Team Red Bull (Location, Quality & combined events)


Q.)And are you going to voluntarily move yourself to "A" if we elimate the Novice category?

A.) In a heartbeat.  



Pete Petrick
175 Jackpiner
Slow but Good

[Gene Saunders]

I think this is so silly to think changing a few classes will change rider turn out. If AHRMA wanted a bigger turn out they would do something about it. "How" you ask? First you have to quit thinking vintage some how stops at a certain year. Why does vintage racing or pv racing stop at 1983? If you buy a vintage plate for an old car or truck it has to be 30-35 years old. So that means the vintage year goes up every year. Try going to a modern hare scramble race on a 1993 Kdx 200 and see the look on peoples faces, they look at you like, "Where in the hell you get that old thing." If AHRMA wants to grow they have to attract new people. Why not have three races per day? Vintage at 9am, PV at 11am, Pre-moderm at 1pm. (Pre- Modern clas: 1984- 20 years old).  That how you grow!! New people come to race pre-modern, and see the vintage bikes and think, I want one like that!! How else can we get more riders? PROMOTE the races!!! If you want to see how to promote a race look how White Lightning promoted thier race. That how you promote a race!! AHRMA does nothing to promote thier races nor does 90% of the promoters. Look at DD's, they do a great job, Road America does nothing. ISDT does nothing!! The only way I see ever getting AHRMA to grow is to get rid of some of the people running things and get some NEW thinking going on!!

[wfopete]

This topic is not about growing AHRMA, it's about reducing classes.  And I for what it's worth, I don't think that reducing the number of classes will necessarily hurt AHRMA membership. Might even help it.I don't understand why some people always have to connect growth as being better.  There is a finite amount you can grow before you start getting diminishing returns.  

And finally, I'm tired of hearing people complaining about AHRMA (or any other organization for that matter) without getting involved.  People have been _iching about AHRMA forever.  No, it's not a perfect animal but nothing is to all people.  The biggest whiners stomp off mad and start their own little niche series.  And guess what? AHRMA is still the biggest vintage series.

Is being the biggest means being the best?  Probably not, but I just come to enjoy the ride.



Pete Petrick
175 Jackpiner
Slow but Good

[Tim Brown]

You want to grow the sport? BE OPEN TO CHANGE.
First, let the kids ride! Don't turn them away when they ask to ride.
Example- My brother restored his childhood,77 yz 80 and wanted his son to ride in the se ahrma events with him. Was told no. Economy is tough, so you have to choose which events to attend. So what happens, he will go to an event that will allow a class for his son and him to participate.
Secondly, in addition to kids, add other support classes. Time moves on and everything gets older. I remember riding the Vintage class at the Alligator enduro on Bultacos and Pentons in the 80's. Those bikes were only 15 years old at the time! Right now, I would love to have an event to bring out my 89 KTM 350 2-stoke. It's 23 years old!
I promote a national enduro and a setra hs every year so I fully understand expenses and insurance issues. A few years back the National Enduro series was weak, to say the least. The format was restructured to attract a wider audience. At first I didn't like some of the changes, but this year our race sold out this year in THREE HOURS!
You can honor, appreciate and ride the bikes we think of as Vintage, but be open to change. And while you are at it, maybe cut the rule book in half.

[brian kirby]

Folks,

You can forget about AHRMA allowing kids, aint gonna happen. EVER. I started racing enduros on a Honda XL80S, full length 100 mile enduros at 11 years old, yet I was told by an AHRMA Trustee several years ago that "Kids didnt race back then". Really? What exactly was it I was doing then?

Bill,

I completely understand your point, and you are correct, my absence has had nothing to do with AHRMA having a Novice class.

Brian