What have I got?...Please help.....

[Jim Clayton]

G'day All,
         I've been following the topics on this forum for a while, but this is my first posting (so please be gentle)...
  I recently purchased from a "friend of a friend" what he escribed as "a '74 KTM'...but on closer inspection, I'm really not sure exactly what it is that I've bought ! Frame number is 54 30666721, Engine number 54 30003010, and the date clock reads June '73. So...I figured it must be a '73....but it's red ! I'm pretty sure it's had modifications done over the years...but chipping a little paint shows the original tank and airbox colour are red. The motor's centre two cases are black, but the rest of the motor is unpainted...so I'm a little confused. Its also had the rear frame loop replaced, and the top shock mounts have been removed. I'm going to attempt to include a pic for your perusal before I begin dismantling it...could omeone please provide me with any information about what I have? I plan to restore it to as close to new condition as possible, t race vintage mx, so any advice would be appreciated...in exchange I'll gladly keep you updated with photo's as it comes along...

Oh...yes, I'm single...my bikes do live inside with me....at least until i build the new shed for them !! [8D]

[brian kirby]

Its at least a 74.5 frame, a '73/'74 will not have the 45 degree lay down shock mount. The engine could be from an older year, but the frame is for sure 74.5 at least.

Brian

[chicagojerry]

i would be curious to see what the backbone under the tank looks like. it may be similar to some west coast ktm frames that i have seen. definately a 74 1/2 style swingarm and oblong rear downtube. the june 73 can be misleading. i have seen matching cases engines where the clocks are a number of months apart, even into the previous year of the serial #. the pipe is a 74 mx pipe, also on the 74 1/2's   hard to say when the ktm's came with red in europe or otherwise. any ides of where the bike was from originally?  i'm sure that there will be more to this story..    chicago jerry

[454MRW]

There are 306 frame # 66440 &  307 66800 250's reginstered in the Frame Number lists, so evidently the frame number and date appears legitimate, even though it would not normally be associated with the lay down frame/shock arrangement. The rear Akront flanged wheel and straight non ribbed forks also would be characteristic of a mid 73 250 HareScrambler.  Since the rear frame loop and top shock mounts have been removed, I wonder if the rear frame section and associated swing arm have been replaced/grafted onto a 73 HS chassis? It looks like a nice job, whatever the case. I wonder is the pipe is in fact a 74 model, as I can not see the telltale 74 only perforated mount above the LH side of the engine in the pic. Mike

Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R

[Mike Lenz]

The frame is a 74.5 model  dont know why the frame number says 73? 74.5's had the akront rims. Never have seen that type chain guide/brake stay.  is the front hole a 6mm or 8mm bolt?  6mm was on 74 and 8mm was on 75.  Of course the mount could have been changed, but it may be a clue if this is a "parts bike" if it is a 8mm and looks like a stock bracket.

[Paul Danik]

If by chance it is a replacement frame, the number from the original frame may have been stamped into the replacement.
Paul

[brian kirby]

I have a 74.5 Jackpiner with Akronts and 7" travel no-ribbed 35mm forks.

Brian

[Knute]

Hey Jim,

You've got an interesting bike that's an amalgam of 1973-75 parts.  Your frame number indicates a date of June 1973, but it has the rear downtube of a 1974.5.  My initial thought was exactly what you were thinking Paul, but the steering stem gusset that connects it to the front downtubes, the horizontal tubes, and the backbone, is a 73 gusset, which can be identified by the inverted V profile at the bottom of it.  So to me, the options are that someone has either added the 74.5 rear downtube or they've spliced together the front half of a 73 frame and the rear of a 74.5-later frame as Mike Winter suggested.  Regardless, the front half of your frame is in fact a 1973.  Also, the rear frame loop has been shortened and the gusset above the shock reservoir has been cut, as it is normally larger and has a hole for an engine stay.  The other things to take note of are:

Engine - I believe what you listed is not the engine number but rather a casting number.  The actual engine number is hidden on the right case directly above the front of the ignition cover.

Rims - As Mike Winter noted, the rear rim appears to be a 73-74 ridged Akront, while the front rim appears to be a 75-later ridgeless Akront or other brand.

Rear brake stay - As Mike Lenz noted, you've got an interesting rear brake stay/chain guide that's similar to the 75-later stay/chain guide, but looks homemade.

Swingarm - The swingarm is the 74.5-later style with all of the outer shock mount holes removed except the one that's being used.

Shocks - Nice remote-reservoir Ohlins, but they're not going to be legal for the appropriate AHRMA Sportsman class.

Pipe - The pipe appears to be a normal 74-later motocross pipe, but a left side view would help.

Airbox - The airbox has the wide profile and extra mount on the lower right side, which is typically the earlier style.  The 74.5-later Penton's with the oblong rear downtube typically had this area removed.

Front hub - Either the front hub is the correct black, mag hub with the paint peeling, or it's an aluminum hub that's been painted.  Also, I think we should be seeing more of an axle hanging out, but I would need to see a close-up to tell.  Oh, and the forged aluminum front brake stay is a mid-74 and later item.

Tank - It appears that someone has added a through-bolt to the front of the tank.

Hope this helps out a little...overall, it's a cool bike that someone has certainly put some effort into at one time.  I'm sure the other guys will chime in with some more observations too.  In the meantime, shoot us the engine number and a pic of the left side of the bike and we might be able to figure a few more things out.


74.5-later front gusset plate



Close-up of the rear downtube junction



Rear frame loop, shock mount area



TEAM PENTOVARNA
Kent Knudson
Kevin Brown
Gary & Toni Roach
James & Adam Giddings
Dennis & Cory Buttrick
Derick Kemper
Nicole Hays
Josh Gaitten

[brian kirby]

I LOVE these kinds of mystery bikes!! The neat thing about most all brands of Vintage bikes now, is the bike has a story to tell if you look at it close enough, I'd love to know this bike's story.

Brian

[Jim Clayton]

Thank you to everyone who's helped me try to identify my mystery project. I seem to have unwittingly opened up a can of worms ! As requested, I have some more pics, maybe to deepen the mystery...

Left hand side...


top of frame, showing no tags for mounting the rear fender, the filled-in top of the airbox, and the cut-away plate to allow room for the exhaust, which sits a little higher than I think it maybe should...



...And finally....what seems to me to be a total lack of an engine number ( I searched very carefully....even searched Al Buehner's site for a pic of where to look....



Mike R. Winter - you're quite right Mike...there's no evidence of a pipe mount beneath the tank on either the pipe or frame...although this could possibly be as simple as careful grinding. ..

Mike Lenz - The front mounting bolt of the rear brake stay has a 6mm thread, and does look as though it may be an original part

Knute - Your observations are all correct....those lovely looking Ohlins will be replaced during the rebuild...they won't pass here in Western Australia either !! The front hub is a magnesium unit.

I really don't have any information about this bike's history, although I may have a couple of leads to chase up....from 1970 till  1974 John Kirkpatrick was the Australian importer of KTM motorcycles, trading as "Motocross Motorcycles". This shop has long since closed, but John, and his son Shane, a noted rider here in Western Australia during the 70's, are still very much alive, and may possibly know something about this bike, especially if there was something special about it at the time. The search continues.......[8D]

[454MRW]

Wow, the pan that mates the high breather backbone to the top of the airbox has been completely eliminated, leading me to believe that if you take a closeup of the frame right by the footpegs, like the Close-up of the rear downtube junction, I would almost bet it is grafted in place there and it looks like right at the base of the high breeather backbone. I had a 400 with a similar stamping and some other characters by the ignition cover which led me to believe that the engine was special built and not a production installation, like maybe a replacement engine. This one is a racer with the internal rotor Motoplat, not generally used on this type of bike. Mike

Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R

[Jim Clayton]

Would this photo suffice?



sometimes I'm prepared...

[454MRW]

Well, that doesn't look altered or re-welded, so that is not where it was sectioned if that was the case. A close inspection of frame might indicate a splice forward of that area, replacing more than just the rear section in the lower portion of the frame. Mike

Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R

[Jim Clayton]

Thanks Mike...I'm gonna be up all night looking for little dags of weld now [] Its 12.40am here in West OZ !!

[brian kirby]

I'm betting Paul is onto something, I bet it was a replacement frame and the original number was stamped into it. Even current dealerships do that, a customer can not buy a Honda frame, if we replaced a Honda frame, we had a form we had to fill out to vouch for the fact that we destroyed the old frame and stamped the same VIN in the replacement.

Brian