Changing Tires

[Mick Milakovic]

John - I love your post "It takes six days to put it on".  

Did the Starcross two nights ago, started with 35 pounds, still has 33, probably lost some pressure from me testing so many times.  I used lots of water/dish soap and cleaned it out best I could before airing up, and I didn't have any baby/talcom powder for the tube, but my wife said to try corn starch since that's pretty slippery, and it worked nice.  Still couldn't get it started, or finished, without leverage help; I think it's just a real tough tire.  

Got the Vee Rubber off without pinching it and found one hole from the time before, hopefully this one goes better.  Fixed and holding at 40 pounds, time will tell............

Mick

[derek martin]

I've got a trash barrel with an OD less than the ID of an 18" rim so with the wheel placed on the barrel the spokes lay on the rim of the barrel. Using this barrel as a stand I remove old tire and install new using two crow bars that are both about 2 foot long providing plenty of leverage. I put a little air in the new tube prior to insertion and lube both tire beads with GoJo hand cleaner. To save knuckle meat I put the sprocket side down into the barrel.
The method of wrestling the new tire on out in the yard by stepping on it and/or beating it on with a rubber hammer is also a safe method preventing pinched tubes.
I use IRC heavy duty tubes which are a little more flat resistant and probably more pinch resistant too.
My favorite tire changing method is to take wheels, tubes and tires to a local independent shop and give a very reasonable amount of currency in exchange for their performing this heinous task.

[joe novak]

I never use a petroleum based product (ie. WD-40) when mounting tires.   I use a little soapy water on the bead, and my two short (about 7" SUZUKI motorcycle tire tools) with smooth, rounded edges.  Yes, the low-pressure inflated tube works great. joe

[Mick Milakovic]

Well, it took it took six days and 10 changes to fix 4 tires, but I think I've finally got it.  What worked well for me were four tips I got from you all:

1.  Use talcom powder, baby powder or corn starch.  Any of them help the tube get slippery in the tire and seat better.  I used to pinch the tube between the tire and the rim.
2.  Inflate the tube enough so it creases when it hangs on your finger, that helps it fill the tire cavity and not crease or turn in the tire.
3.  Use some sort of lube (I liked diluted dish soap) on the tire edge then when it's on clean as much off as possible.
4.  Irons to take the tire off but not back on, if possible.  The rubber mallet worked pretty well for me.  Stomping was too hard on the knees!

I want to thank you all for your advice; this group really is the best!

Mick

[Mike Rosso]

Here's something that has worked for me; grind a groove in the tire iron wide enough for it to lock on the rim, you'll feel and hear the click when it does. This will keep the tire iron from going in too far when installing the tire and especially the last few inches of tire bead


And the rim "drop center" is your best friend when changing any tire. Keep all or as much as possible of the tire beads (both sides) in the rim "drop center", especially when putting the last few inches on. And always start removing and installing the tire at or as near as possible to the tube valve stem as the valve stem keeps the tire beads from getting in the bottom of the drop center. Rim locks will keep the bead from getting to the bottom of the drop centers too but getting the tire between the rim lock is much easier with most of the bead off at that point. Always use the rim drop center to your advantage by keeping a knee on it and repeatedly pushing the beads into the drop center with the heal of you palm.

[Mike Rosso]

Put a valve stem nut on by just a few threads and on the last "bite" or last few inches by the valve stem push the valve stem in so the tire beads ends up under the valve stem reinforcement pad (a thicker area of rubber around the valve stem) and not on top off it.

(Note how the tire bead is fully in the rim drop center at this point too.....your best friend and helper:D)

[hankthecrank]

I used to change truck tires and the spoons all had a stop of some kind made on them. Most had a piece of round stock welded on to keep them from going to deep into the tire. Some of the others had a shoulder [ kinda like a step] ground into them. All my tire spoons have some type of stop on them to limit the depth. All of the other suggestions already made all have merit also.

Hank Rinehart
PS. Take lots and lots of little bites.

[Mike Rosso]

The rim "drop center" is there for changing tires even on car and truck rims, (a good reason not to use too much duct tape in place of the rubber rim band)

[Mike Rosso]

quote:Originally posted by hankthecrank

I used to change truck tires and the spoons all had a stop of some kind made on them. Most had a piece of round stock welded on to keep them from going to deep into the tire. Some of the others had a shoulder [ kinda like a step] ground into them. All my tire spoons have some type of stop on them to limit the depth. All of the other suggestions already made all have merit also.

Hank Rinehart
PS. Take lots and lots of little bites.

Hank, sorry I only had a chance to read part of the thread late last night after the POG meeting and rounded up some photos from an article I did back in '04. You're right ALL GOOD POINTS in this thread and I see where using the drop center was already mentioned. I was only going to post the photo of the groove that I ground into the tire irons but when I found that photo I also found the other (43[:I]) photos too from the file. Got carried away...sorry won't let that happen again.

[Wesley Miller]

Mike, if memory serves me well you had some special tricks for the tire changing contest at Blackwater? If I am right maybe you would share some of those here with the group.

[hankthecrank]

Mike, thats o-k. If we overlap sometimes that just serves as a reminder of all the good info we have as a collective group. POG rocks!:)

Hank Rinehart

[Mike Rosso]

quote:Originally posted by Wesley Miller

Mike, if memory serves me well you had some special tricks for the tire changing contest at Blackwater? If I am right maybe you would share some of those here with the group.

I was looking for the KTM Underground article I did on tire changing tips this morning to post it here and only found the photos and not the entire article where I also had a little sidebar about that "Blackwater Tire Changing Contest".

I'll try and shorten the sidebar but basically I knew about the contest for many weeks before and we were on the road, racing before that event and I carried (re; hid them in the truck) a couple of Metzeler 2-ply side wall 4.00-18 tires with sidewalls like paper. I had two 3.50-18 inner tubes, and the PE's had the quick change rear wheels that only required the axle be turned 10 times to take out the axle, pull an axle spacer out, pull the wheel to the right and the chain and brake drum stayed attached to the left side of the swingarm.

I sprayed both tire beads with Armor-all and WD-40 and mounted one with the smaller tube on the Sun Rim that we had one side of the rim cut down .080" smaller. No rim locks just the Sun Rim pins. The valve stem hole in the rim was enlarged and the hole marked with a wide red paint stripe.

The contest was laid out like changing a worn tire at the end of the day of a Six Day event where you had to remove the wheel, let the air out of the tire, pull the tire and tube off the wheel, replace it with the new tire and tube, put it back on the bike and push the kickstarter pedal one full stroke (didn't have to have the bike start). The clock would start when the wrench hit the rear axle or axle nut and stop when you kicked the starter pedal once.

You learn a set pattern when you have to change a tire in a given time and the first thing you want to do is remove the valve core and then remove the wheel from the bike so the air is coming out as you're removing the axle. I messed up on that part because the crowd and other riders knew I had planned this for weeks and they wanted to see how I was going to do it. Oh I have to say that I had tried to find a NAPA tool or screw on device that all you had to do was turn it just a few turns like a valve cap and the center pin would depress the valve core and let the air out four side holes on the device. Never found one so we decided to not even put a valve core in the stem and just put a metal shock absorber valve cap with a rubber gasket on it after we pumped about 60 PSI in with an air nozzle [)]. This came back to bite me when I didn't remove the cap and went for the axle first which started the clock.

I realized the mistake about the fifth turn of the axle and couldn't stop so I pulled the wheel off, put it on the ground, removed the metal valve cap and stood there for what seemed like an hour as the 60 PSI slowly left the tube. Started to try and break the beads but still too much air in the tube, finally got the beads broken (lay the -.080" cut rim side down first to break the back side bead first) then flip in over. Take off the tire on the smaller rim side, grab the other lubbed up tire, pull it on and with the smaller rim and the beads in the drop center you can almost put the entire tire on with no tools. Throw it back on the bike, kick the starter pedal once to stop the clock at...............................1 minute 43 seconds.

Darn that brain fa#t at the beginning and 60 PSI............Why? Well Jeff Fredette my then teammate and still good friend (and who also came up with the idea of not using a valve core) asked if he could borrow my, 2-ply tires, and smaller tubes and I said "sure why not", Jeff's a great guy, teammate and good friend..........well Jeff did it in 1 minute 41 seconds 2 seconds quicker :D:D No one came even close to us or even came close the 3-1/2 minute mark that day and most were over 5-minutes....

I still felt good about it and knew had I not made that 60 PSI mistake.....coulda, shoulda, woulda LOL :D;)

Jeff went on to win the Blackwater 100 the next day and I won my class, a great weelend for us

[Jeff D]

Great story, Mike!  Maybe we could get you guys to do a demo at the Reunion Ride this August???  You ARE coming, aren't you

BTW for all, the Pathfinders M/C is editing their final draft of the entry flyer and forms including licensing requirements for our scooters, so you should be seeing those here very soon!  August 24th will be here before we know it.

Jeff DeBell

[Mike Rosso]

Jeff, I'd love to go and maybe I can do it this year? I'm working on my 1984 KTM 250 MX right now (need some engine parts and a kickstarter, oops not the place for a parts wanted ad, sorry[:I]) and hope to ride Mid-Ohio Vintage Days event this year. If the bike is still in good shape, no make that "if I'm still in any shape" maybe I can go to the Reunion Ride with the '84?

Back to this thread on changing tires, I dug up the text from it and it is just the basics and the importance of the drop center when changing any tire on any wheel. Even with a bib mousse you'll see how the rider/"changer" tries to use tools to get the beads into the drop center by clamping vise grips or hammering large tire levers in between the rim and beads. So as long as the tire beads are in as much of the drop center the better or eaiser it is to do the job.

There are lots of others that have really good methods for changing a tire by hand this is just the most basic of ways that I learned from others, necessity and experience; hope some of it is helpful:

(some of the photos that were in the article are posted above and I'll try to post the others later)

TECHTALK

TIRE CHANGING WITH YOUR BEST FRIEND
AND HELPER, THE "DROP CENTER"
» Ask most motorcycle owners, especially dirt bikers, which job they dislike the most and topping the list most often is fixing flats, changing tires and cleaning the foam air filter (I'll leave filter cleaning for another issue!).
I changed a tire or two during my Six Days career, sometimes in less than ideal situations, and usually with tool bag sized 8" tire levers. In the heat of battle new "best friends and helpers" are discovered.
One such best friend is the "Drop Center" of a rim and every rim has one. This is the lowest (smallest diameter) section of the rim, typically right down the middle. The "Drop Center" is always smaller in overall diameter than the much larger (in diameter) tire bead seat area of the rim. If you only learn one thing from this article, I hope it's to take full advantage of the "Drop Center" when fixing flats or changing tires.
LET'S FIX A FLAT AND REPLACE A TUBE
We'll do it track side or the home shop method, too.
You'll of course have to remove the wheel, the rear. Fronts are a piece of cake after you master a rear tire change.
You need a good set of tire levers/irons (two minimum, No screwdrivers, PLEASE), a valve stem core remover, air compressor or hand pump, some mounting lube such as water, window cleaner, slightly soapy water, Red Bull, or...you get the picture.
For several reasons you'll want to remove the brake disc and sprocket if you are working on the ground because:
(A) You'll be less likely to bend a sprocket with it down and on the floor versus a brake disc.
(B) You don't want either to bend - especially the brake disc, or (C) If you slip and hit the sprocket teeth with your hand, well, you get the painful picture.
1. Find a clean, flat work area. I like to use a piece of cardboard, throw rug or work mat if I'm working on the floor. A small drum with a rubber protective rim is nice (split heater hose over the barrel edge works great) but the good old-fashioned garage floor will do just fine.
2. Remove the valve core and remove as much air as possible.
3. Be careful to NOT bend the sprocket or brake disc. It may be in your best interest to remove them if there is a chance you might bend them.
4. Use the heel of your shoe or boot as close to the rim's edge to break the tire bead and push it into the "Drop Center" of the rim. **On rims with a DOT safety bead lock, you may need a tire bead breaker or use my "in the field" trick described below.
5. Flip the wheel over and repeat step four (4) to break the bead on the other side, forcing the tire bead into the "Drop Center" of the rim.
6. Always start to remove the first section of tire and finish putting on the last section of tire at the Valve Stem! The reason for this is the valve stem will not allow both sides of the tire beads to get to the lowest part of the "Drop Center" and if you are on the opposite side of the valve stem for that last "bite" you'll struggle just more than needed.
7. Do not remove the tire on the sprocket side if at all possible, (see reasons a, b, and c).
8. Make sure both sides of the tire beads are down in the "Drop Center" and use your hand or knees to make sure beads stay there during the entire process.
9. Insert one tire lever about one (1") to three (3") inches to the right or left of the valve stem and recheck the bead to make sure its in the "Drop Center" and pry up the first section of tire.
10. Push the bead back into the "Drop Center" with the palm of your hand (and before you put in the next tire lever!) all of the way around the rim. Insert the second tire lever another two (2") to three (3") inches away from the first and pry that section up and above the rim.
11. Force the bead back into the "Drop Center" all of the way around the rim then with a third lever (or the first lever if using two) insert the lever two (2") to three (3") inches away from the second "bite" and pry it over the rim.
12. Okay you should be seeing the pattern here now; Push the tire bead into the "Drop Center" around the entire rim, move the tire lever (2") to three (3") inches away from the previous "bite", pry the bead up over the rim, push the tire bead into the "Drop Center" around the entire rim, move the tire lever 2"-3" away from the previous bite, pry the bead up over the rim, push the tire bead into the "Drop Center" around the entire rim...
13. Stop and make sure that the bottom side bead is in the "Drop Center" if for some reason there's too much resistance for the previous steps. This is step number thirteen and I've used the word "Drop Center" a dozen times so far, that's the key to this whole thing, making sure the tire's beads are always in the "Drop Center".
14. By now, one side of the tire's bead should be off. Grab the tube opposite the valve stem and pull it out, then remove the stem from the rim hole, it's easier that way.
15. Completely remove the tire from the rim AFTER first removing the rim lock(s) if so equipped. It's a real struggle if you don't remove 'em.
16. If you have water-based mounting lube, apply it now, it'll make removing the second bead easier. Insert a tire lever on the opposite side (from where you removed the first bead) and lift the bead up. Hook the tire lever over the rim making sure the bead is in the "Drop Center" (again, your best helper) and pry it over the rim while pushing down HARD to remove it. This takes practice or an additional person - depending upon tire lever size and skill level.
** "FIELD METHOD" FOR BREAKING THE BEAD ON A RIM WITH A DOT SAFETY BEAD LOCK LIP
You'll need two people to do it safely, a good pair of boots, a 4" x 4" post (or similar size wood board) at least 3-feet long, safety glasses. Before starting, make sure to remove the brake disc and sprocket.
Lay the wheel on the ground on its side and put the end of the 4x4 on the tire as close to the rim as possible. Have someone put his or her foot onto the opposite side to prevent the wheel from moving. The bigger guy gets to jump onto the 4x4 and break the bead. Once broken move the 4x4 a few inches and repeat the routine, crude but effective. Flip the wheel over and repeat the procedure.
TIRE INSTALLATION ("DROP CENTER" IN REVERSE)
I'm using a set of Motion Pro tire levers packaged for sale in sets of three. If you look closely at the photo you will see that I modified them, as I did during my Six Days career, by grinding an index groove into the flat end of each lever about 10mm from the tip to the center of the groove. Use the index groove to notch into the edge of the rim and this will help to keep you from going in too far and pinching the tube as you are installing the tire.

[Mike Rosso]

INSTALLING THE TIRE

1. CHECK THE TIRE ROTATION INDICATOR BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING!!! You don't know how many tires I've put on and then kicked myself for this basic error; in fact I almost forgot to mention it here, duh.
2. Apply water-based lubricant to tire bead such as mildly soapy water or even just plain water. One area of the tire's bead that needs lubricated, and is most overlooked, is the inside of the bead at the last few "bite" sections, as this inside bead area slides across the rim last.
3. If you did not remove the brake disc and sprocket it is best if you put the tire on so you finish on the brake disc side of the rim.
4. Place the rim inside of the tire and pull as much of the bead over the rim as possible. (You did check the tire rotation didn't you). Pry the last part of the tire bead over the rim with a tire lever three (3") to four (4") inches at a time.
5. Inflate the new inner tube until it just has "some" shape to it, so you minimize the possibility of pinching it during installation. To give you an idea of just about how much, a trail trick is to remove the valve stem core, inflate it by mouth, and then quickly install the core. It just needs some shape to keep it from getting pinched under the bead and to keep it away from the tire lever tips as you pry the bead over the rim.
6. Sprinkle baby powder onto the tube then spread around and some on the inside of the tire. This is always a good thing to do to help the tube settle in easily and minimize chafing.
7. Install the inner tube into the tire placing the valve stem in first and put the valve stem nut on just a few threads. Do this to almost flush with the nut and valve stem and then I push the stem in to make sure the valve stem reinforcement pad (the double thick area around the base of the valve stem) is not under the tire bead. You will need to push the stem in again just before you put the last part of the tire bead on to avoid this pad from getting trapped under the bead. The nut on the valve stem will stop it from going into the tire.
8. Check the valve stem alignment and if you need to move it just hold the tire with your knees and turn the rim to align it.
9. Here we go, first make sure the bottom bead is in the "Drop Center". Remember we are going to start and end at the valve stem.
10. Put tire lever #1, with the index groove facing down, under the tire bead about three (3") to four (4") inches to the left or right of the valve stem, pry it over, push the bead behind it, into the "Drop Center" and leave lever #1 in place. I like to work counter-clockwise because I'm right-handed so I can hold the tire lever in place and push the bead into the "Drop Center" with my left hand.

11. This is the technique; three (3") to four (4") inch "bites" max., tire lever's index groove to the rim edge, pry over, and push the bead into the "Drop Center". Repeat this all the way around and ALWAYS CHECK THAT THE TIRE BEAD STAYS IN THE "DROP CENTER". At some point if you're working on the floor, you can use your knees to keep the bead in the "Drop Center" opposite where you are working. This is very important for the last ten (10") or twelve (12")inches of tire bead and absolutely necessary for the last three (3") inches.
12. When you reach a rim lock, be careful as you pry the bead over that you push the rim lock's threaded stem in so the bead goes under the lock. Leave the rim lock nut on about three or four threads.
13. Before you pry the last of the tire bead over the rim at the valve stem, remember the reinforcement pad at the valve stem's base. You don't want this under the tire bead or it will tear. You should have left the valve stem nut on by only a few threads and you just need to push and hold it in as you pry on the last couple of inches or pop it on with the heel of your palm. Push it in one last time to be sure it's not under the bead.
14. Put a little more water-based lube on both side beads. Inflate the tire to the maximum inflation pressure (See the tire information on the tire sidewall) and check that the bead is seated properly on both sides.
15. With the air pressure still at the maximum inflation pressure, tighten the rim lock(s), if so equipped, before you set it to lower pressure.
I personally don't like to run the valve stem nut, especially for applications where the air pressure is below 25 psi. My thinking is that if the tire spins in the rim, it usually rips the stem out of the tube. Some will just run the nut up to the bottom of the valve stem cap but that can still be a problem too. I do this and it has saved me a couple of times; I run a PLASTIC valve stem cap and no valve stem nut. If the tire spins in the rim, at the worst, it will rip the plastic cap off and suck the valve stem into the tire, the result is no flat tire but you later have to poke a hole into the tube to get the tire off.
I hope this is a help to some of you and remember the important parts;
1. Always start and end at the valve stem.
2. The rim "Drop Center" is your best helper.
3. Never take more that three (3") to four (4") inch "bites" at one time.
4. Push the valve stem in to ensure the reinforcement pad is not under the bead.
5. Use a water-based lube on the inside of the bead for mounting and on the outside of the bead for seating to the rim.
6. Tighten rim locks with tire at maximum inflation pressure. «