1973 Hare Scrambler clutch cover

[Andreas Piepke]

Hi All,

For my 1973 Hare Scrambler I have two clutch covers, unfortunately, none of them is what I need! I have one cover dated 10/1973 (part number 51.30.001.110) which is in sad shape and fits. The second one which is in good shape is dated 8/1978 (part number 51.30.001.610) but doesn't fit my engine. Both covers have 17 mm diameter started shaft openings. The 1973 part had a 14 mm ID bushing installed which obviously was meant to accommodate a 14 mm starter shaft.
Here my questions for y'all:
1)Did the 1973 Hare Scrambler have a 14 mm or 17 mm started shaft? Is it possible the 17 mm starter was mounted directly into magnesium without a bushing?
2) Are these 51-type parts that I have for 250 or 175 bikes?
3) Does anybody have an extra clutch cover that would fit my bike? I would trade the one I have or buy the other for a reasonable price. I would sell the one I have.

Thanks

Andreas

[Andreas Piepke]

97 reads no responses. Are thre no clutch cover experts out there?

Cheers

Andreas

[Rain Man]

I know how to get the experts to respond!  Give incorrect info.
You probably have the black motor if it's a 73.  And it also sounds like you have a175 JP cover if it's a 14mm kicker shaft.
 I'll be working in the shop all day and I'll take some measurements. And hopefully somebody else,will chime in

Raymond
 Down East Pentons

[Rob Thatcher]

I am not a Penton expert, but have built both a 72 175 and a 73 250 (which I currently race).  

What we really need to know is what size kickshaft do you have? Pictures would be nice, too, to help us help you.  

My 73 motor (black) has the upgraded 17mm kickshaft and later style clutch cover.  Apparently, it was a common breaking issue and common Penton update to replace the shaft and add a new cover.  

So, if the "sorry" cover has the 14mm shaft and fits, you don't have the upgraded parts.  If you are restoring to ride the bike, it is worth buying the later kick parts and using the later cover.  Those part are available, as are the correct clutch covers.

[Andreas Piepke]

Thanks for the info! Yes I have a black 1973 engine. I have two kick starter shafts, one with 14 mm, the other 17 mm (from a second 1976 engine). I could, thus, switch over to the larger shaft. The thing that puzzles me a bit is that, given what I see on my two existing covers, the 17 mm starter shaft seems to run directly in the magnesium without a bushing. That can't last very long. That's why it would be god to know whether the correct clutch cover for a 250 has a larger opening to accommodate a bushing.
I would love to post pictures, if I only knew how. Any instructions on this?

Thanks

Andreas

[Andreas Piepke]

I'll try to show some photos via a link to photobucket.

http://s1341.photobucket.com/user/andreas_g_piepke/media/Penton/100_3068_zps49c10282.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
My two clutch covers. Top: good one, bottom sad one. The top cover won't work because of the rounded corner at the bottom right. The one that fits my engine (top) has been poorly welded. Both covers have a 17 mm opening for the kick starter.

http://s1341.photobucket.com/user/andreas_g_piepke/media/Penton/100_3073_zpsb49c8160.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
As one can see: putting a 17 mm starter shaft into the lower opening would work but the shaft would run directly in magnesium as there is no room for a steel bushing.

http://s1341.photobucket.com/user/andreas_g_piepke/media/Penton/100_3074_zps2e236bea.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
There is a similar issue with the left engine case: the opening for the starter shaft has a steel bushing to accommodate a 14 mm kick starter shaft. To convert to a 17 mm shaft (which I have) do people run this directly in the magnesium or do you machine the engine case to put in a larger bushing? Were do you get the bushing from?

I would greatly appreciate any info on the clutch cover. Are the two covers I have for 175 cm^3 engines? Do genuine 250 cm^3 clutch covers have a larger opening for a 17 mm starter shaft plus bushing? I would like to make sure to buy the correct parts!

Thanks

Andreas

[ALB]

All KTM 125 and 175 engines have 14mm kick start shafts.
The first year 1973 250 black engines came with 14mm shafts but were changed to 17mm shafts by 1974.

You cannot just change a 14mm shaft to a 17mm shaft. The 17mm shafts use a different - spring / ratchet gear / kick start gear / screw plug / locating lever - parts. You will need all of these parts to do a conversion and to do this you will need to split the cases.

I have new and used black clutch cases in stock for the 175s. Give me a call 216-651-6559.

Alan Buehner

[Andreas Piepke]

Hi Al,

Thanks for the info! I have a an entire starter assembly with 17 mm shaft, gears, ratchet an all from a 1976 scrap engine. This stuff is all at hand, I just want to make sure not to damage the case by not having the appropriate bushings and running the shaft in the soft magnesium. I'll call you regarding the cover.

Andreas

P.S.: I have a 250.

[454MRW]

I don't recall any bushings used on the 17mm shafts in the covers. Mike

Michael R. Winter
I enjoy rebuilding and appreciating Pentons!
1974 250 HS Pentons-1980 KTM 175-400'S
1975 Can Am 175 TNT & 77 250 Black Widow
1979 Husqvarna OR390
1976-78 RM & 77-79 PE Suzuki's
1974 CR250M 07 CR125R 79 CR250R

[brian kirby]

I dont think there is a bushing for the kick shaft.

Brian

[Andreas Piepke]

Hi All,,

I don't mean to be condescending or anything but the lid I have does have a steel sleeve. Have a look at the outside of the kick starter opening:
http://s1341.photobucket.com/user/andreas_g_piepke/media/Penton/100_3083_zpsd663e7bb.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

From the inside one can even see that the sleeve has a holder machined into it, allowing to latch on to it:
http://s1341.photobucket.com/user/andreas_g_piepke/media/Penton/100_3086_zpsa887c941.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

I assume this is original. Having a steel inset does make sense as the shaft will not run in magnesium but in steel, which is probably more durable. So the 17 mm shafts simply don't have this feature?

Happy Easter everybody and good egg hunting!

Andreas

[Keith Meatyard]

I just examined a couple of 175 cases and covers.  The kickstart and shifter shafts both pass thru and rotate directly in the bored hole in the magnesium case and cover.  There are alignment dowels that look much like a bushing, but they are dowels for aligning the two parts precisely, and their inside diameter is larger than the bored holes in the cases for supporting the shafts.  So, the shafts just rotate in the magnesium.  This is the case with the 14mm shafted 175 engines that I have.

Keith Meatyard

[DKWRACER]

Hi, I have a LH cover in good condition 14mm shift shaft, 17mm kicker, can send a pic if needed, Tom Brosius
[email protected]

[brian kirby]

quote:Originally posted by Andreas Piepke


I assume this is original. Having a steel inset does make sense as the shaft will not run in magnesium but in steel, which is probably more durable. So the 17 mm shafts simply don't have this feature?

That is not original, the shaft rides directly on the mag cover, Husky covers are the same way.

Brian

[ALB]

Andreas,
From looking at your photos, someone took some time to insert a bronze sleeve into a 250/400 side cover to change the opening from 17mm to 14mm, so they could use it for the 175.

All the KTM clutch case covers use a steel alignment sleeve on the shifter holes - to the center case.

What is interesting is that on your engine case the dowel sleeve is on the kick starter hole. In checking all of my parts list - they are all showing the dowel sleeve on the kick starter hole. In checking my collection of new and used clutch case covers - The 1972/73 full size covers all have the cutaways for the dowel sleeve on the kick start hole. I have a 1975 (date coded) 175 cover with the bushing hole on the kick start hole. I also have a 1977 (date coded) 175 cover with the bushing hole on the shift hole. so go figure. [?]

Alan Buehner