POG message board usage

[ALB]

With the decrease in the number of postings on this message board, it was suggested to the to the POG board of trustees that the message board be shut down.
A discussion was held about this at the June POG meeting and the consensus was that there is just too much valuable information that is on this message board and that this information should be archived.
At the July POG meeting this will again be discussed and a motion is to be made as to decide the fate of the message board.

So, what are your thoughts about this?
Your comments and feed back will be presented at the July meeting and help the trustees with making their decision.

Alan Buehner, Secretary of the POG board of trustees

[rob brown]

Keep it up, even if dues increase to cover expense. Too much great information to lose, plus I trust this site vs FB.

[Hank]

I check it out daily, and use the search function too.

[skiracer]

Pleae keep it active!  I too would be willing to pay more in my dues to support the platform.  Not being a fan of Facebook, I would rather discuss Penton business here.  Would it be possible to show the membership some general number of the cost to maintain the platform, and what it would cost each member?  For me, this is my go to place for Penton information.  Thanks for posting Al!

[Bob Gilman]

I go on the web-site every day,never fb its a shame is has come to this.  Bob

[slvrbrdfxr]

Thanks for posting this Al. I usually check the POG website and message board a couple times a day and make posts somewhat often. I also use the site's search function fairly often too. It would be unfortunate to lose access to this wealth of information. I consider the POG website as my go to place for info. I resisted joined social media like Facebook for many, many years but recently created a FB account to help locate parts for a couple non Penton bikes I was working on. Since getting on FB I've joined a couple of the Penton FB groups and they are good in their own way but don't contain the same type of info available in this "original Penton online forum". I agree with the earlier posts that indicate it may be time for the board to consider an increase in yearly dues to help keep the POG and website viable. My local club (Tulsa Trail Riders) faced a similar situation a couple years ago when it came to sustaining financial stability. We had been charging $25 dues for over 30 years and with less than 200 members that doesn't add up to a lot of money. Between our yearly enduro and dues collected, our club just wasn't raising enough money to stay afloat long term. In fact we weren't raising enough to pay for liability insurance to cover our club members when riding at our facilities in Scipio, Ok and at the Zink Ranch. Our bank account was slowly dwindling down so some hard decisions had to be made. Our club ended up voting to raise the dues to a level that will give us a better financial footing. The good news in all of this from my perspective is that our TTR club membership has actually grown some since implementing the higher dues. In summary, I'd have no problem supporting a raise in the yearly dues to help sustain the POG and website if the board decides to go that route.
Dave McCullough

[Richard Colahan]

I also check the 2 F/B Penton sites. Usually constructive posts...but with a much more diversified group membership...let's just say: not always.
This web site and this message board is THEE home of the Penton Owners Group. Period. End of Story.
I'll add my agreement that the board do a cost-to-maintain analysis and present it at the next meeting.
Let's figure out what it will cost to keep this message board operating.
My sense is a dues increase will be required AND accepted by those that consider it an honor to belong to the Penton Owners Group.

[Paul Danik]

AS much as there are costs associated with the POG website, if I understand correctly the lack of postings and reads, is being interpreted as a lack of need by the folks who do the heavy lifting to keep the website up and running on a daily basis. Those folks handle a lot of issues from "behind the curtain", as the saying goes. The offers of more $$ to keep this site up and running are surely appreciated, but as with a lot of Penton Owners Group activities, manpower is more the issue.

The info and photos contained on the POG website are priceless, no question about it, and everyone I have talked to agrees with that fact.

Keep your comments and thoughts coming.

Paul

[KJDonovan]

Several thoughts in no particular order –
This is a tough discussion topic, but I entirely understand that it needs to happen.  I am also in agreement with Paul, that it's not just money that keeps things running and there is a lot of care and feeding that goes into keeping a website running and secure.  This work falls on the shoulders of volunteers and the reality is that post-COVID, volunteerism is down for all organizations. I know this firsthand as a member and chair of a local organization.  I also know there is no easy fix to recruit members who will volunteer their time and expertise to keep organizations like this one afloat.

Something we did in my local group to lighten the load on core members and contributors was to establish small subcommittees to focus on specific problems and make recommendations to leadership on how to clear these types of hurdles without piling more work on plates of a small pool of existing volunteers.

For the POG website, there is the appearance of a lack of traffic/interest in the site due to the lack of posts. I check in here at minimum a couple of times a day to look at new posts and to search the archives.  I suspect that the lack of posts here is partially due to the convenience of the FB Penton sites, but also believe the volume of "how do I?" type posts are less frequent due to all the answers already available here via a search.  I don't consider FB a real information source because the data does not persist as it does here.

For the short term, I think as members there are a couple of things we could do to highlight the site.  First when we are browsing the 2 FB Penton sites and come across one of the "how do I?" type questions, take 5 minutes, find the answer here then post a link to that answer on the FB site.  Hopefully, this will expose this site to new users.  Secondly, if the admins (Dale and Brian?) of the FB sites could add a sticky note at the top of the 2 FB sites with a link to this site it may also increase traffic.

Thanks,

Kevin

[Daniel P. McEntee]

   I would also support a dues increase if necessary. I have been a member here and a few other internet special interest groups for a long time, and they all experience lulls in activity from time to time. I check in here at least twice a day, and also the Facebook offering. But like has been mentioned, the greatest feature of this site, like some of the others I frequent, is the archive of information and photos that are available here. This is priceless sometimes when you are trying to work through a problem. There is no way to archive things on the FB offerings. Some of the groups have a files section and such, but searching them is often ineffective. It's like when Yahoo decided to do away with their groups. In both the motorcycle and model airplane groups that I was a member of, untold amounts of information and photos were lost. Facebook is most effective for basic communications I think. We all aren't going to live forever but what some people have in their heads in the way of experience and tech information could be preserved. I think that is the most important aspect, given the importance that the Penton brand has in the history of off road motorcycles. There has to be a way to make this happen.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[JCHubbard]

Very timely and well needed post, Al. Thank you for posting this.

I echo the sentiments of everyone here.  I've been a member here for 16 years, and I cannot imagine how I would've been able to ever resurrect and repair the Penton/Sachs/DKW bikes/KTM(70s-early 80s) I've owned along the way. For me, this is the premier go-to place for advice and research.

I have no issue with increasing dues and would be willing to donate financially to the cause if needed.

[Rob Hugo]

I really appreciate all of you that have taken the time to provide your thoughts about the forum/message board and encourage others to continue commenting to help the Penton Owners Group (POG) board of trustees make a decision. Like many of you, I also use Facebook from time to time, so I can understand if the group decides that is the better place to have new conversations.

Since I was one of the people who brought the question about shutting down the forum/message board forward, it might be helpful for me to share some of the key factors at play. I am just a volunteer and do not have any say in the decision or should in any way be considered a spokesperson for the Penton Owners Group. These are only my opinions, for whatever that is worth. There is a lot on my mind, so please accept my apologies in advance for the length of this post!

The question of shutting the message board was raised because there was a period of almost a month with no activity on the message boards. We know there is interest in the topics, as the Facebook pages are very active daily. Since most of the conversations have moved over there, is it worth keeping this alive in its current form? I've organized some of what I believe are key factors below, which I hope speak to some of the previous comments and can help the club make an informed decision.

Historical Posts:

No matter what is decided, the historical posts will not go away or be deleted. Two of us have backups of the forum/message board on our home machines and there is a weekly backup saved with the current hosting company. In the club, there is a database expert who has expressed his intention to convert the information in the database to a more stable format and create a long-term searchable archive when he gets the time. Even if the message board remains active, this would be extremely valuable for future generations, and I hope that it can be completed.

Costs:

There is cost, albeit minimal, as well as time involved in keeping things running. It's my understanding that the hosting service, which runs the message board, is paid up through the end of the year. I am migrating things to a better server, which at this point, I am happy to cover the cost of myself. Given the costs related to the sport, I would consider these technological costs to be minimal.

The biggest issue is time. A lot of time was spent rebuilding the forum, making needed changes and continuing to keep it running. Not to mention the time to register new users, help people with lost passwords and other issues. When we only see one or two posts a month, we felt it needed to be asked if keeping it active is a good value?

Technology Issues:

As many of you know, the forum/message board has been hacked a few times before I joined the team. I am sure that the hacking incidents and the message board being unavailable for months were at least partially to blame for the conversations moving away from the forum. It's much more secure now, but this is an older software package and development has been very slow, so there is always the possibility of another incident in the future. As stated above, I have already moved the main website to a more secure server and plan on moving this message board later this year depending on what it decided.

This older software cannot compete with something like Facebook. Alan and I have had a brief conversation about the possibility of migrating the data to a more current and robust system that would better integrate with the main website. We could explore that further if there was interest as it would certainly have some small costs and need a large amount of time invested.

Positives to Keeping the Forum/Message Board Active vs Archived:

I'm not one to do much commenting and would be more likely to be one of the people using the search feature or reading the comments. After spending a good amount of time with this project, and the people that have been working behind the scenes on it, I have some thoughts on why it could be worth continuing the forum and if so, why more effort should be given to posting historical or technical questions and answers.

1: The forum/message board is open. It was made very clear to me that the message board and all its information was intended to be open to all and should remain that way in the future. No one needs to create an account or be a member of the Penton Owners Group to read or search the information. Anyone can create an account to post or ask a question. You do not need to be a member of POG, but we would encourage you to join.

2: It is spam and ad free: This is entirely due to the way Karen implemented the registration process and this could not be done without the help of our moderator, Alison, who personally checks and approves each request for new accounts. Having worked with other groups like this in the past, you have no idea what a huge gift having someone like Alison is!

3: Privacy: Neither this message board or POG tracks your information, gives your information to 3rd parties or tries to sell you anything.

NOTE: We did install a Google service on the website which will gather accurate traffic information on the forum for the month. The data will be shared with the POG board at the next meeting. For this month at least, Google will have the data that you did visit the message board.

4: History: I touched on this a bit above already. On the home page of the main website it says, "The Penton Owners Group was formed to preserve and share the memories and the equipment of a very special time in motorcycle history."  We all feel that the message board is part of that history, and we will preserve it. Whether or not we should continue adding to it, or if it is preserved in the same format is the question at hand.

I do think there could be room for the message board to exist alongside the Facebook groups. However, when posting to Facebook, posters could ask themselves if the post would have any historical value or would be something that someone may want to reference in the future. If so, consider posting it here. POG has no ability to archive anything put on Facebook. When something is posted on Facebook, you give them the right do whatever they want with that information and there is no guarantee that it will be saved for the future.

Thank you to everyone that has visited or contributed to the message board in past!

[rob brown]

Really great points. I don't post much, but do check often. I am now retired and have a few Pentons to restore or place. This is a valuable site for information. I feel that Rob has brought up some great ideas. It is my hope we find a workable solution in some way. I will be glad to help monetarily as I can.

On another matter, I have searched but can no longer find the model year and vin numbers information anywhere. Did I miss something?  Could be! Like that old band and song, "Old and in the Way".  I will be at vmd again, and hope to see everyone.

[Rob Hugo]

Hi Rob. Is this what you are looking for?

https://www.pentonusa.org/penton-motorcycles/production-years/

[rob brown]

Yes and Thank you! Now I understand how to get there. And to think that I used to go there without issue. D'oh!  Of course, now I have to look for my keys too...