ISDT Qualifier

[Dwight Rudder]

Sachs D engines are required to ride Sportsman class. Sachs A & B engines are allowed in Classic.
No KTM engines are allowed in Classic.  1972 Jackpiner must run Sportsman.
Cher'o,
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[tmc3c]

Greg has been seeing a doctor and I am not sure he will be coming.



Thomas Carmichael


1970 125 Six Day
1976 250 Hare Scrambler

[firstturn]

Dwight,
  First of all our Prayers are with you for a speedy recovery.  Just curious....how does ARHMA determine if I am riding a bike with a Sachs D engine??  I am serious and this isn't made to be a trick question.  Thanks in advance.

Ron Carbaugh

[john durrill]

Ron ,
 If your not riding for ARHMA points I dont know it would matter a great deal if you have a D or A/B alloy cylinder engine. If your using a Mikuni or a bigger Bing spigot mount than stock ,then a A/B cylinder might look like a D from the outside. I would weld a flange on an A/B cylinder and use the Mikuni type rubber spigot mount to install those carbs. That would look identical to a D cylinder to most folks.
 Adding the 2 extra transfer ports to to an A/B cylinder would make it better than the Monarch D cylinder porting specs I have. They did that to Zundapps and Sachs engine's in the late 60's early 70's.
 John D.

[firstturn]

John,
  Thanks for your input.  What I am getting at is I have heard what Dwight said before and I don't know how anyone can tell if I have a D cylinder on my bike.  The normal tell tell sign is of course the intake manifold.  The point is who at ARHMA knows the difference between a A, B or D  and if they do the fact is I have had ported cylinders(A & B) out perform D cylinders.
  Now if Dwight is talking about reed valve cylinders I would understand that a ARHMA tech would see the difference.  I was just wondering....no big deal.[8D]

Ron Carbaugh

[bentrims]

Thanks for the ISDTVQ input on classes for my 6 Days. Tentatively I may be going to Anza, CA riding a Monark. If things change my friend and I will be at the Arkansas race.
Thanks again.
Tom B

[Knute]

Hey Dwight,

Hope you're back is doing better man!  Regarding the legality of the D engine, you're starting to sound like a true Hodakaphile!  AHRMA does not require the D to run in the Sportsman class. The AHRMA Handbook outlines which bikes are legal for Classic 125 and it states "Pentons with Sachs engine" but doesn't mention B or D.  The confusing part of the Handbook is several lines later where they state "Any motorcycles powered by Sachs engines 125/5A or 6A, 125/5B or 6B" are eligible.  They later go on to state that Pentons with KTM engines are illegal in Classic 125.  

That said, they do not state that the D Penton is illegal in Classic 125 nor do they say the D Penton is required to run in Sportsman 125.  There is some debate over when the first Pentons arrived with the D engine (I say late 1974, others say 1975) but the D engines were available in a variety of different bikes in 1974.  

We started running AHRMA Nationals with a D GS Penton in Classic 125 back in 2001 and have been running it ever since.  Currently, there are quite a few other Pentons, Monarks, etc. running in Classic 125 with D engines (D, D GS, D GS Pro) and I have never witnessed a protest or disqualification regarding the D in Classic 125.  In fact, AHRMA Off-Road Coordinator Dave Boydstun was even running a D engined Penton in Classic 125 during the 2002 or 2003 season.

As far as IDing the D goes, I believe the biggest visual differences are that the D cylinder has 6 fins instead of 7, the fins have "V" shaped braces between them, and the intake manifold  bolts on.  But the bottom line is the mechanical differences between the B and the D are not that big and the B can be modified ("stuffed" crankcase inserts, porting, bolt-on intake, etc.) to run like the D if you desire, so making the D illegal would be pointless.

Kent Knudson

[Dwight Rudder]

quote:Originally posted by tmc3c

Greg has been seeing a doctor and I am not sure he will be coming.



Thomas Carmichael


1970 125 Six Day
1976 250 Hare Scrambler

Greg is through with the Chemo as of a week ago and is working to build himself up for the ride.  I spoke with him today and he is still planning on attending.
Cher'o,
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[OUCWBOY]

Kent,
If this helps any, have a July 74 Six Day with the D engine in it. Some call it a 74 1/2.

Donny Smith

[Dwight Rudder]

AHRMA RULE BOOK
SECTION 11 - VINTAGE MOTOCROSS
11.1.4 Classic 125
Any motorcycle powered by Sachs engines 125/5A or 6A, 125/5B or 6B
Limited to 32mm carb.
It doesn't say you can't run a D engine but the D engine didn't come out till 1975.  And if specifically mentions the A and B engines. Now some B engines were modified to GS or D type specs.
D engines have 6 fins and rubber carb manifolds that bolt to the cylinder. Also V fin webbing.
I thought I remember something about D engines having to be in Sportsman as well as 1974 PUCH.  But I don't see either mentioned now.  So I guess it is up to the interpretur.   I have also raced agains CZ and Husky in the Classic class with 38mm carbs.  Nobody protested them either.
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[OUCWBOY]

Dwight,
Hope you are healing quickly, and you are in our prayers. The D engine was actually available in May of 1974 from Sachs. Like I said, my July 74 Six Day has the D engine and it came that way.

Donny Smith

[[email protected]]

quote:Originally posted by tlanders

Do you have a third Penton rider for a team? Is Jaime on a Penton/KTM? Looking for Penton teams to beat the Hodaka teams!!!!

Teddy

Teddy I am not feeling the love
your friend Paul

[firstturn]

Ok, so after Will Roger, Mike Lewis and Johnny Bench we all feel we can run what you brung, as far as a Sachs powered machine, in the Classic or Sportsman class.  Are we all in agreement?  So once and for all this tale of not being able to run a D engine in these two class is put to rest, UNLESS YOU ARE RUNNING A REED VALVE.  OK OK?

That is why this site is so GREAT.  Thanks for everyones input.[^]

Ron Carbaugh

[Knute]

Hey Dwight,
What are you doing up at 3:09am buddy?  Get some sleep!
 

quote:Any motorcycle powered by Sachs engines 125/5A or 6A, 125/5B or 6B
Limited to 32mm carb.
It doesn't say you can't run a D engine but the D engine didn't come out till 1975. And if specifically mentions the A and B engines. Now some B engines were modified to GS or D type specs.
D engines have 6 fins and rubber carb manifolds that bolt to the cylinder. Also V fin webbing.

I already said all that stuff.

 

quote:the D engine didn't come out till 1975.

The D was available in 1974 and there are lots of Pentons, Monarks, etc. to prove it.

Donny and Ron, I'm with you.  I have seen D engined Pentons as early as 406.  

Kent

[bentrims]

My curiousity gets me on one point that I bet a bunch of you can answer;

What did they use to stuff the crankase with on D motors? My modern bike CR 250 Honda has some very nice end caps that press on to the main bearing pin to minimize volume. Is this the area and/or do they also stuff the wrist pin?

Like most of us in here I am fascinated by getting just a little more out of the little mill.
Thanks,
Tom Benolkin