New crf150re big mini....off topic

[sixdazed]

The new big/little Honda crf150re (big wheel)has got me very intrigued.a 4 stroke mini with horsepower and 12" of travel-oh boy.My sl70's getting jealous.Since it's red if i put Berkshire stickers on it can i call it a "New Penton"?-Just kidding,bad taste,i know.....Jimmy Lewis says it's the mini he's been trying to build for 20 years(the Honda,not that other thing).Sounds too fun!Never thought i'd sell a 450 to get a mini,but if anyone wants a like new(really,less than 5 hrs.)04 crf 450r let me know.i got the 450x when it came out and never rode the r much at all cause the x is street legal.,Ric
P.S. from the looks of the service manual a lighting coil should be possible-Lites!!!guess you can take the kid (old dude) off the mini bike,but you can't take the mini bike out of the kid,or something like that.But they really ARE good training!
ric emmal

[TGTech]

As long as the AMA Congress doesn't allow this machine to be used in the 85cc classes, I don't really care what Honda does with this machine. Obviously is a neat machine, but it just has way too many problems to be included with the 85cc machinery in competition.

Dane

[Kid Six Day]

the crf150 is a relly neat bike but it really shows how much 4 strokes are taking over the motorcross world

Alex Klein
Columbus,OH
'73 Penton Six Day 125

[sixdazed]

Dane-i agree-(especially since they don't have an over 50 mini class!).But apparently the fim has already approved it to run against the 2 stroke mini,so i imagine the ama won't be far behind.So racing for kids will unfortunately be more expensive again.But for an inseam challenged old guy it may be the ultimate pit/play bike!Cheers, Ric

ric emmal

[TGTech]

Your "understanding" is off base at this point in time. Let me give you some background on this issue.

Without going into the whole story, let me tell you that the rules making bodies have recognized that their allowance of the big bike four strokes into the 125 and 250 classes, was wrong. The playing field, due to the modern four stroke technology, was tilted very steeply in favor of the four strokes. The AMA Congress is the body that controls the rules for AMA sanctioned competitions.  

Because of that understanding, two years ago, the AMA Congress, which makes the rules for all of AMA sanctioned competitions, set four stroke displacement limits for the existing mini classes.

The four stroke engine allowed into the 50cc classes, would be 65cc. The four stroke engine in the 65cc classes, would be 85cc. And the four stroke engine that would be allowed into the 85cc classes, would be 125cc.

Honda is trying to be the 800# gorilla at this point, and wants the rules changed to fit the machine that they made, irrespective of the rules already in place.

The discussions on the various motocross message boards around the country, have been very hot on this topic, and there have been many of the manufaturers representatives, (other than Honda of course)many AMA Congress delegates, and lots of other people, myself included, don't believe that the Congress should cave in on this issue.

The machine is more powerful, about 32%more expensive, 20# heavier, and louder than the CR85R machine. People are thinking that this is where the line in the sand should be drawn. And I agree.

Like the original 400cc Yamaha four stroke, which in its second year became a 426, in the third year, a 450cc engine and with it's refinements, this 150, while heavier at this point, over the next couple of years, will see improvements that will make it even more powerful than it is presently.

The people who have heard them on the motocross tracks, are telling that the noise levels is very close to the CRF250R, which is already too noisy. The four stroke machines have completely ignored the noise levels that have been in place for years, and it has done  nothing but cause motorcyclists more head aches than ever before on the issue of noise.

If you look at the dyno charts for this machine, at this point in time, the maximum horsepower, is almost as strong as the current CR85R. BUT, the first 2/3 of the powerband, is at least 30% more powerful than the 85.

The modern four stroke engines, at least in motocross, cost lots more to maintain and repair, compared to the current crop of two stroke engines. If you keep the air filter on a two stroke clean, it will actually last longer on the track, than the four stroke will. The fact that the four strokes have lots more moving parts that must be replaced in a relatively short period of time, makes the costs even higher than the two stroke.

I hope I have given you some perspective on why this machine shouldn't be included into the competition classes with the 85cc machines. If you would like more information, I'll be happy to steer you to the various message boards on which this bike has been a hot topic.

The bottom line, is that it just doesn't fit with the 85's, and because Honda went ahead an manufactured a machine that flew right in the face of established rules, they are totally wrong. I am hoping that at the AMA Congress, the delegates strongly voice the opinion that this machine should only be used, at the very least, in the Super Mini (105cc) class or establish its own class.

Dane

[Larry Perkins]

Dane,

You are absolutely correct that the fourstroke deck is stacked across the board.  The EPA and AMA have decided that the fourstroke is the future and the days of ALL New twostrokes is numbered.  Twostroke is the next Vintage era.  Vintage, Post-Vintage, and Modern Twostroke.  In 20 years guys in their twenties today will be approaching 50 and they will remember aloud the smell of a twostroke and young men of that time will shake their heads and think, "What do you know Old Man."  Just as we fondly look back on shorter travel machines and wish for that simple time today's young men will twinkle back to their simple time when bikes went ring-ding-ding.  Sad but true.  When Post-Vintage was unfolding I did not know or think about that I was witnessing the passing of an era.  I recognize it this time and I know how the movie ends.  Technology is a double edge sword.

Larry P

[TGTech]

Larry:

   The irony of this EPA issue, is that NONE of the modern four stroke racing engines (motocross versions) meet the EPA's gas emissions standards for the off road (enduro/cross country) category! AND they are all so damn loud, that presents a whole new EMISSIONS problem. And this problem is causing lots faster closings of riding facilities than ever before. The second irony in this issue, is that back in the 70's, didn't we have a noise issue with our bikes then. And here we are again.

Dane

[sixdazed]

Dane,Larry,and all,  Having been a Honda technician since the 70's i've seen what happens when a 4 stroke scatters.The new race bikes get very ugly when they are not maintained (and sometimes even if they are!).And the cost of rebuilding them does border on outrageous.I think if i were racing a modern bike week in week out i'd ride a 2 stroke,but these days i race very seldom (though i hope to change that).My crf450x has been very reliable though,has at least 5 thousand miles on it,and i don't think it's overly loud.The only thing i've had to do that i wouldn't on a 2 stroke is check the valves-(they were fine-but i am an air cleaner maintenence freak).If they suck dirt it's all over and it aint cheap.The stock pipe and baffle is still in place on my bike and i do maintain the bike fairly regularly-but i do dread the cost of rebuilding it when that time comes.I have nothing against 2 strokes-i own quite a few Pentons,Hercs,etc.,and i love them,i'm just looking for a bike i can touch the ground on(with at least 1 foot!)and have some FUN play riding.My vintage stuff is great but not something i want to take thru some of the stuff i ride on.Just basically looking for an urgraded sl70 to screw around on-not race.My 70 always makes me smile!I haven't ridden one of the 150's yet so i don't know if i'll even get one or not.I'd have to get rid of one of my 450's as i'm still making payments on both(X AND R). I might though,if they are FUN to ride.For me that's what matters.Just as i don't want anyone telling me i can't ride a 2 stroke,i don't want anyone telling me i can't ride a 4 stroke.My question to you is how do we save the 2 stroke?Stop buying new 4 strokes and ride(soon to be)outdated technology?Lobby the AMA for a fairer playing field for 2 strokes?We know the technology is available to build cleaner burning direct injected 2 strokes,but the manufacturers are phasing out the 2 stroke as far as i can tell.Is it so they can sell more overpriced parts.I don't know the answer,but as i said i just want to ride and have fun-2 stroke or 4.I would love to still have that choice in the future-what can we do to save the ring dings?.......As far as noise goes i think the exhaust manufacturers need to get together and be more quiet oriented-remember less sound=more ground?The new bikes make enough power stock for most anybody,yet the first thing the normal joe blow does to his bike is go out and buy the loudest pipe he can find.I've seen it a thousand times-then,of course after putting on his loud pipe he'll blast up and down his street to show how "cool" his new bike is.So even if all pipes are quiet these idiots will find a way to make them louder.I tell customers all the time they are probably losing power with their open pipes on their VTX's and stuff but their answer is-but it sounds so cool.What can you do?
I don't have a kid that races mini's,just an old guy tired of the super high seat heights.As far as racing goes,yes i too think the rules are unfair to 2 strokes.  
As always Dane i respect your opinion and hope you see where i'm coming from.Sincerly,Ric

ric emmal

[Tony Price]

I'm fairly certain I read somewhere that 2007 is the last year Honda will build a 2 stroke.

I guess it is inevitable, but what a sad day.

Tony

[TGTech]

Ric:

   The main problem I have with the modern four strokes, is actually not with the machines themselves, but with the rules making bodies that combined them with the two strokes and at the same time, allowed them an unfair performance advantage, because they ignored the possibilities of the new technology. The four strokes with the 125's should never have been double the displacement, but rather should have been 200 or maybe 220cc. The machines with the 250's, should have not been over 400cc. Next, the rules making bodies should have been schooled on the difference between the sound waves from a two stroke engine and a four stroke engine. The four stroke engines' waves, travel much farther than that of a two stroke. Thus even if the levels are the same, the four stroke sound waves travel further and annoy more people. Finally, the actual noise levels that were already in place when the bikes were developed and released, should have been enforced and over the ensuing years, lowered to reasonable levels, instead of allowing the manufacturers to produce exhaust systems that were way over the published noise levels. Had this been done with the big bike four strokes, they would not have had the performance advantage that they have today, and the two strokes would not have been buried by the four stroke machines.

All that having been said, unfortunately, all of that is over the dam and you aren't going to be able to turn it around. But with the mini's, there is a whole new area, that shouldn't be corrupted by the four stroke technology. And that is the issue at this point. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the AMA officials learned that they made mistakes in the big bike classes, and instead of leaving the barn door open in the mini classes, they set limits that were much more realistic performance wise, and that wouldn't allow the four strokes to overwhelm the two stroke minis. And for Honda to manufacture a machine that is 20% larger than the existing rule, and expect the rule for competition to be changed to fit their new machine, is just plain wrong. That is why, the AMA Congress should dig their heels in and tell Honda that "No, the CRF150R, will not be allowed to be included in the 85cc classes." Also as I mentioned earlier, if they want to allow it into the Super mini classes with the 105's, I think that I would go along with that, but only if the noise level of the bike, was restricted to a reasonable level.

I am very tired of the manufacturers "driving the bus" and I want it to stop.

Regarding the X series Hondas, they are quiet and if the exhausts are not changed out for aftermarket systems, then they are OK. But the aftermarket companies are not restricted and the owners of the bikes want to try and achieve the performance of the R series machines, and out the windows, go the quiet.

Level playing field, economics, safety, and quiet. These are the issues with this new machine in its intended useage. And at this point, it doesn't meet any of those issues where Honda wants to put it.

Dane

[OUCWBOY]

I have to say something about this, and I am sorry if I offend anyone. My feelings are, and always have been, a 125 runs with the 125's, a 250 runs with the 250's and so on. I do know that technology has changed these bikes, but the 4 strokes today are even more powerful and lighter than they were in the "day". In the 60's and 70's you didn't get to ride a 441 Victor BSA in the 250cc class did ya? NO, you did not, you rode it in the open class or the 500 class.
Just my 2 cents worth. The only rule about 4 strokes that ever made sinse to me was the OHV vs the flat heads.

Donny Smith
Lakeside, CA, soon to be Paragould, AR

[firstturn]

I was really going to stay out of this since I have a vested interest on both sides, BUT I like what Donny says.  Try taking someone to a MX race and try to explain why the guy out there really runing hard is in 8th place on a 125 in the 125 CLASS is being beat by 7 other guys on 250cc bikes...huh??  Well it just doesn't make sense.  No one has to get on here and explain to me the history since I could probably explain more history of MX from all sides of the fence(factory verses AMA verses Fans verses Advertisers verses Sponsors) than 99% of all people involved.

  I will say I don't go to Drag Races any more because they have bracket racing???  No longer is it the fastest guy, it is the guy that can dial in a computer and try to run the same times....when we where racing the fastest person won within the rules..period.  Very simple.

  Well back to the shop so I don't offend anyone.[8]

Ron Carbaugh
Kerrville, Texas

[Larry Perkins]

Ron,

Within the rules?

Larry P

[TGTech]

I don't claim to be an internal combustion engine expert, but I think that there ought to be some type of formula that measures the amount of air flow through the engines, and firing pattern, to compare the horsepower levels.

The old four strokes had two valves per cylinder and produced a certain amount of power. Today, all of the modern four stroke engines have four valve heads, and thus flow lots more air, thus making more power.

I don't believe that the displacements should be the same, because frankly the four strokes won't produce the same power that the two strokes do. But I definitely don't believe that this double displacement thing that used to be in place, was the right decision, especially based on the modern four stroke technology.

From my perspective, the AMA Congress delegates had their heads in the sand like ostriches when they were presented with the Yamaha 400 four stroke. If they'd done some testing or research, they'd have learned that this wasn't their father's four stroke.

Dane

[OUCWBOY]

Dane,
I agree that the "New" 4 strokes produce much more power than their father's 4 strokes did, thus, a 250 is a 250. That's the way it should be. A 450, regardless if it's a 2 or 4 stroke is not a 250 and should NOT run in the 250 class.

Donny Smith
Lakeside, CA, soon to be Paragould, AR