WHO REALLY CONTROLS AHRMA RACING?

[Joe Murphy]

I might as well jump on the bandwagon about AHRMA. They want you to join and then they call you a liar.  You don't touch a motorcycle for 30 years, you come back to ride an event, sign up as a novice because you don't want to claim that you are a skilled rider and the AHRMA moves you up a class.   I wanted the yellow tape on the helmet because I really did not know what was going on.  If I was a sandbagger I should have been called on it. Looking at the skill level of some of the names that were in the post vintage open intermediate class I did not belong within miles them. It was not the mudders fault and Teddy passed out forms that you could apply for to be classed down after the event was over. I would be embarrased to claim that I was a better rider than I am in the presence of the great  riders at the ISDTRR..I would be more embarrased to be a sandbagger..next year I will be back but I am going to bypass the BULL and enter as a expert..That way when people look at the list they will go "this guy must be some kind of rider to be competing with these guys".
  Thank you mudders scorekeepers for explaining things to me and putting on a great event.
  Larry: heal the shoulder up and thanks for selling me a wonderful Penton.  It was my first time and I sampled the dirt many times with my face. I do want to thank the other riders that did not use the Rokon for traction

Joe Murphy
ps. If I would have been smart I would have impounded my Penton and had a medal

[Tony Price]

I know the person who took the biggest hit from this rule.

Due to job requirements, leaving before mid-morning from Dallas was the only option.

He rode the entire weekend with no other penalty points other than his 300 point penalty for getting in at 7:00 PM Friday evening.

Without the 300 point penalty he would have won his class by 14 points, but settled for a Silver.

After hearing of other infractions such as entering impound early, which is a concious decision to not abide by the rules, and having event officials look the other way, I'm deeply saddened.

He also had to leave early on Sunday due to job requirements on Monday and was not able to collect his medal.  I told him I would collect it for him and bring it home.  He replied that it really didn't matter much anymore.

In my mind, he won his class.

Tony

[Merlin]

.........perhaps the real answer is not obvious,the "unofficial" AHRMA board has been shut down due to threats of an attorney from Brooklyn...........................AHRMA needs to be closed down and "reorganized" and renamed for many reasons sighted prior to this post as well as the reason above...............

[chicagojerry]

i am an avid ahrma racer and can certainly see the need for some changes in the way they do business. the rule concerning automatic placement into the intermediate class was a bad change to the previous rule. it has been in effect for a couple of years now and i still strongly disagree with it. (if you have never raced any type of bike before you are still classified an intermediate unless proven otherwise, and the evaluation process is murky at best) i think some changes are overdue. unfortunately, with their discussion board shutting down the ability to have an open forum to discuss issues has disappeared. there was a lot of negativism and name-calling on that board but it was still a valuable spot for info on what was happening with vintage bike competition. the pending lawsuit has a lot of people wondering what will happen with the organization. i for one want to see it continue minus some of the egos and vintage snobbery that gets in the way of good decision making. may it get reorganized?yes. especially if they are forced into bankruptcy. concerning the pending litigation,as with many other lessons in life, i have learned that there are almost always two sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in between. whats important is to be able to find the correct path through the smoke and mirrors and move forward to do the right thing. and yes, i am running for trustee of ahrma to try to affect some changes. hopefully there will still be an organization to be trustee of, at least in some form, so that we can still race these wonderful old machines.  chicago jerry
PS i'm glad that THIS discussion board is as friendly and helpful as it is. its always a pleasure to visit it.

[Jeff D]

I don't want to stir the pot any more than it already is, but wanted to let everyone know that your thoughts do get read by at least a couple of the steering committee guys.  I am the new guy on the committee this year and haven't had anything to do with the supplemental rules and enforcement (or lack of) thereof, but I do know that the committee prior to this year has had plenty of discussion prior to implementing anything at all.
I'll make a couple of observations and shut up....
1.  I do think Larry has a legitimate issue regarding his late impound penalty.  Larry often shoots from the hip, but he's usually pretty close to dead on target, and I think in this case he's in the bullseye.  
2.Having said that, here's the flip side...
A. The techies were cold, wet and weary, and asking them to hang around on the off chance that someone might straggle in is asking an aweful lot from a group who graciously volunteered to do something no one else wanted to do.
B.  How do you prevent 50 riders showing up for tech on Saturday morning with 50 different excuses?  I couldn't get off work.  The car wouldn't start.  I took a wrong turn.  The three extra bean burritos I had at Taco Bell gave me the squirts and I had to stop at every rest area between here and Albuquerque.  Where do you draw the line?
C.  We all knew that tech ran from noon to 6PM on Friday and the late impound penalty was clearly stated.  Some riders chose not to impound on time and took the associated penalty...former world MX champion Jeff Smith was one of them, and he didn't gripe.  He probably also won his class, although I haven't seen the scores!
3.  Having said that, there is (as Teddy Landers has already pointed out) a protest period for anyone to bring up real or perceived inequities in the scoring.  I don't think this is any different than at any other enduro, trials or motocross that any of us have been to in the past 3 or 4 decades.  We all know the rules...or should...and if we have a problem with something, use the rules to bring it to the attention of those in charge.

Leroy Winters and Dick Mann did not intend for this weekend to be too serious.  It is a reunion first.  It is to celebrate the original ISDT, the vintage machinery associated with the ISDT, and the heroes, American and foreign, who rode "the Big Show" back when men were men and bikes were underpowered, undersuspended and predictably unreliable.  The AHRMA involvement has been a tremendous boost to the event, however at times it seems it's become too serious.  My advice is to concentrate more on having a good time and concentrate less on how many points you do or don't have...but that's just me who isn't trying to win anything any more.  
I realize that enforcement of rules is spotty at best, but do we really want to make this into an event that is run by rules instead of good times?  Do you want to have scads of course marshalls out there enforcing the slightest infringement and do you want to have to post a $500 or $1000 bond before you protest the jury?  I know I don't.
I'm not a Six Day vet and I'm not actively chasing any AHRMA championships.  I'm just out to have a good time and see some of my heroes, however I will endeavor to carefully represent the full range of thoughts expressed here to the rest of the steering committee members when the opportunity presents itself.  In the meantime, if you have a gripe, know you can protest it!
Thanks for listening.
Jeff DeBell

Jeff DeBell

[lksseven]

Hi John M,

Where one finds the perfect balance between 'good judgement' and 'consistent rule application' is certainly a mystery.  But for any nostalgic or historic celebration event, being a stickler on none "in-the-heat-of-competition" rules seems too extreme.   When I was in school (the actual ISDT) being late to class was legitimate cause for some kind of discipline, but at my 30 year high school reunion, being disciplined for being 10 minutes late would be ludicrous.

I know there's always a circumstance that can't be anticipated and/or accomodated - that's just life on this planet.  There's nothing wrong with enforcing rules to the letter, but there's nothing wrong with a small sprinkling of judgement and compassion, either.  It's always a judgement call.   I just like to see the event be as 'inclusive as possible' - 160 riders participating at different levels of competence and tolerance is better in my mind than 35 riders of extreme competence and no tolerance.  There are plenty of 'real' events for that all out pursuit of excellence, for those so gifted and motivated.

I guess I'm concerned that if the event trended to being too serious, considering that everyone had to see my spectacular crash 200 yards from the starting line Saturday, I'd be the first one voted off the island, and then I'd have to stay home and do yardwork!

Larry Seale
I choose to ride

[Tony Price]

OK, some research has brought new light on to this topic.

http://www.ahrma.org/previews/isdt_reunion.htm

Note that the late impound penalty is listed as 10 points.

Who ever "won" the PV 200 Intermediate class actually came in second by 4 points according to this AHRMA link.

Does anyone know when the posted rules were changed?

As for myself, the ISDTRR is not about what medal I get since I show up as a sure lock for Bronze anyway.  It does, however, mean other things to other people.

On another less than humerous note, one of the medals awarded to the Side Car guys was from 2002..........

Tony

[Larry Perkins]

There is alot of difference in where you sit at the start between a 10 second penalty and a 5 minute penalty.

Larry P

[Dwight Rudder]

The 10 second penalty is a misprint.  Why would anyone impound if there was only a 10 point penalty ?  Late start penalty is 10 points.  It used to be 60 points.
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[Larry Perkins]

No Dwight, AHRMA has said 10 seconds penalty as the rule.  Just because promoters do it different doesn't make the rule a misprint.  It just makes the promoters look like it is- that they are doing what they wish instead of following the rules.  Nothing new just still not right.  Even at the 60 second penalty it is at least not medal changing where the 5 minute penalty is medal changing.

Main point remains that if the event tries to operate under hard ass rules and a tough course riders will eventually be lost and if AHRMA doesn't run or at least supervise it's own show it will not survive intact long term. Personally I can ride whatever you throw at me to a certain extent and so can you.  The average guy coming to ISDTRR that has invested a ton to restore his one or two bikes-what can he do and what will run him off?  Are we building challenges or FUN?  I vote for Fun!  Paul Danik told me he had fun that first day.  I told him if that was so he doesn't get to ride enough.  He agreed that was probably true.

It should be about fun and fairness.  That is what will draw more to the event.

Larry P
4 time Amatuer National Motorcycle Champion
World BMX Champion
National BMX Champion
1994 USA Downhill Mountainbike Team Member

[Dwight Rudder]

quote:Originally posted by Tony Price

OK, some research has brought new light on to this topic.

http://www.ahrma.org/previews/isdt_reunion.htm

Note that the late impound penalty is listed as 10 points.

Who ever "won" the PV 200 Intermediate class actually came in second by 4 points according to this AHRMA link.

Does anyone know when the posted rules were changed?

As for myself, the ISDTRR is not about what medal I get since I show up as a sure lock for Bronze anyway.  It does, however, mean other things to other people.

On another less than humerous note, one of the medals awarded to the Side Car guys was from 2002..........

Tony

I just cleaned out my van and found a sheet with the rules for the event on it and it stated a 300 point (5min) penalty for late impound.  Maybe 5 minutes is too much of a penalty but certainly a 10 point penalty is not enough. I suggest submiting a rule change to the ISDT steering commitee.
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[brokenspoke]

I'm kind of disappointed to hear there is so much politics vintage racing. It should be about fun, rules are rules but I also understand about traveling great distances.
 I'm kind of baffled why it is so serious, it's just a bunch of old guys riding junk. I also see a lot of nastiness in today's racing,
when I raced in the early 70's you used to stop and help the guy up the up hill and he would do the same for you.
 I think the vintage world could learn from Australia, you show up and ride, no points, no BS, just having fun. Too many rules will kill the sport.

[Larry Perkins]

Amen!

Larry P

[firstturn]

Thanks Tom (Brokenspoke).  My suggestion is to have a fun run for the Reunion and a table to buy a medal at the end of the event.  I think everyone should know which medal they qualify to buy.  I'll order mine now..."Give me one of those Clear medals please".

I think we should use this last Reunion Ride to learn a lesson and try to have fun at this event or it could be THE LAST EVENT for some people due to all the problems.

I have been quiet about this subject till now since I can't ride anymore, but this event should be a little more on the enjoyable side and used to honor the past ISDT riders that are either no longer with us and the ones that are still with us.  It was so wonderful to see the past Champions like Mr. Penton, Jack, Tom McDermett and Dane and the ones still riding like Paul Danik and Jeff Fredette.  That's it.[^]

Ron Carbaugh
Kerrville, Texas

[Steve Minor]

I too have been quiet about this....just reading with interest. But just I have to add my two cents.

I side with Ron....I take the Reunion Rides to be sorta' like "fantasy baseball camp"....where you pay a fee and "become" a big leager for the weekend...You rub shoulders with your heros....share the moment....fulfill your childhood dreams of going to the "show"....why spoil it with politics?...for one weekend out of the year, lets just be kids again with dreams.

Steve Minor
Wilmington, NC