Gas/oil ratio & types.

[tomale]

Ron,
normally I would not make changes like some people change of hats. But when Dwight said that he found problems with using bel_ray at 50-1 had bearing problems, that scared me. The cost of 2 stroke oils is expensive but not as expensive as rebuilding a bottom end. the question I have now is do I run one ratio for the 250 and another for the 400 ?
Also Dwight you could answer this, what size of bike was the bike that had bearing problems with Bel-ray at 50-1  If it was a 100 or 125 then maybe it would not net the same results on a 250 or a 400. I have been using bel-ray at 50-1 but It has only been less than 10 gallons so I do not know if there would have been any problems. I would not think that I have caused any serious problems yet but my concern is that I might by extensive use. I trust you and dwight you have been doing this alot longer than I and have had opportunies to see things I never have. I know you tell it straight. Thanks!!
I thinks I am going to bed... it is really late and I have to get up in 7 hours.

Thom Green,I own and ride a 76 250 MC5 MX which I bought new.

[firstturn]

Thom,
  I will yield to Dwight on this one.  I don't think you mentioned you were using Bel Ray in your post.  I  can't really speak bad about Bel Ray since years ago I along with friends used it for a while with no problems.  I also remember it being used by Team Honda, we had a contract with Bel Ray before we had riders that were allowed to sign their own contracts(oil sponsorships).   But Dwight is out fighting the wars today and you don't win Championships with DNFs.

Ron Carbaugh

[Speedy]

OK,I have read all your oil wisdom and here comes my oil story again.
In 1962 I rode my very first ISDT as private in the West German Team in the South German Alps.(GARMISCH PARTENKIRCHEN)
I rode my DKW 175 GS.At this time we all mixed 25-1(Castrol oil).
I was aproched by a MUNICH OIL Company called OPTIMOL OIL WERKE MUENCHEN.They offered me there oil free,gasoline free and money for finishing  the ISDT and more money if I would win a GOLD.
BUT,.....I had to use(and not modify)there mixture of 50-1.
Wow,I was scared,but after a long discussion I decided(and some other riders to)to take the offer.A bit carb mod.followed and then came the start of the first day.No bike used to start easy at this days on a cold morning after beeing impoundet for 2 days.My DKW started first kick,and in seconds I was out of sight of my 4 other riders riding in my minute.This was happening every morning.The engine ran SMOKE FREE(what was very unusable at this days,)I had one of the fastest engine in the 175 class.Then came the 6.day ROAD RACING test.Would the engine take the wide open speed on the road course???I run away in the combined 175-250 class with only two riders on 250 in my shadow.In the last corner before the finish line I was drifted to the outside and hit the strawbales with my footpegs and the 2 250s slipped by me to make me 3.But I won my GOLD and the top OIL MONEY.
In the following years I used OPTIMOL OILs only and NEVER EVER had a engine(OIL related ) problems.TEN YEARS LATER,(I was now living and racing in Canada using BARDAHL oils 50-1)
 a Canadian Importer aproached me,to test a special racing oil from Germany but I have to use it as the oil Co.recomended.100-1.A quick resurch told me it was OPTIMOL OIL MUNICH.Because I was guarantied to be paid for any engine damage I begun to use the (FREE) oil in my Zuendapp and Hercules GS + OSSA  bikes.I have never used any other oil then OPTIMOL 100-1 in any of my bikes to the day.2 or 4 stroke it is IMO the finest oil in the world.
OPTIMOL is now distributed by INTERLUBE INTERNATIONAL INC.out of Bellingham Washington USA.
//www.opti2-4.com
For more of my pers.expirience talk to me.
Speedy------->>>>>>>




Helmut Clasen KTM
162 Hillcrest Ave
L9H 4Y3
Dundas Ontario Canada
Ph.905-627-5349
[email protected]
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
Sachs GP-GS 250-7A reeds
Zuendapp 125 GS ISDT repl.73
KTM 450 EXC Auto.03
Duke spec.Edit,1996
Adventurer 02

[herman]

I have been running amsoil 2000 series at a 44:1 with 110 racing fuel and i have no smoke and my plugs are a nice tan all my pentons start on the second kick idle clean and have had no problems in my snowmobles too its for air and water cooled engines ,It is expencive but have never had any engine probems.The bottom end i use spectro sx. Herm

Herm

[Dwight Rudder]

Thom, I found problems with most bikes ( 250 and under) that used Belray MC1. Kawasaki found that any crank bearing problems always turned out to be using BelRay. I never saw a problem with Belray using 40:1 but It is a bit dirty at that mixture. If you must use 1 mixture for both size bikes go with 40:1 Maxima Super M . PJ1 GoldFire is also a very good oil at 40:1 or richer.
Cher'o,
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[Dwight Rudder]

quote:Originally posted by firstturn

Thom,
  I will yield to Dwight on this one.  I don't think you mentioned you were using Bel Ray in your post.  I  can't really speak bad about Bel Ray since years ago I along with friends used it for a while with no problems.  I also remember it being used by Team Honda, we had a contract with Bel Ray before we had riders that were allowed to sign their own contracts(oil sponsorships).   But Dwight is out fighting the wars today and you don't win Championships with DNFs.

Ron Carbaugh

We used BelRay when I was with the Hercules team and if we mixed rich it gummed up the rings. Go too lean and it shortens the piston life and can lead to rod bearing failure. I went back to Spectro / HiPoint back then and had no more problems except gumming up the spark arrestor. I have used PJ1 and Maxima with no problems what so ever. I currently use Maxima Super M mixed at 40:1 for trail work. A bit richer for MX type riding.
Cher'o,
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[Dwight Rudder]

quote:Originally posted by Speedy

OK,I have read all your oil wisdom and here comes my oil story again.
In 1962 I rode my very first ISDT as private in the West German Team in the South German Alps.(GARMISCH PARTENKIRCHEN)
I rode my DKW 175 GS.At this time we all mixed 25-1(Castrol oil).
I was aproched by a MUNICH OIL Company called OPTIMOL OIL WERKE MUENCHEN.They offered me there oil free,gasoline free and money for finishing  the ISDT and more money if I would win a GOLD.
BUT,.....I had to use(and not modify)there mixture of 50-1.
Wow,I was scared,but after a long discussion I decided(and some other riders to)to take the offer.A bit carb mod.followed and then came the start of the first day.No bike used to start easy at this days on a cold morning after beeing impoundet for 2 days.My DKW started first kick,and in seconds I was out of sight of my 4 other riders riding in my minute.This was happening every morning.The engine ran SMOKE FREE(what was very unusable at this days,)I had one of the fastest engine in the 175 class.Then came the 6.day ROAD RACING test.Would the engine take the wide open speed on the road course???I run away in the combined 175-250 class with only two riders on 250 in my shadow.In the last corner before the finish line I was drifted to the outside and hit the strawbales with my footpegs and the 2 250s slipped by me to make me 3.But I won my GOLD and the top OIL MONEY.
In the following years I used OPTIMOL OILs only and NEVER EVER had a engine(OIL related ) problems.TEN YEARS LATER,(I was now living and racing in Canada using BARDAHL oils 50-1)
 a Canadian Importer aproached me,to test a special racing oil from Germany but I have to use it as the oil Co.recomended.100-1.A quick resurch told me it was OPTIMOL OIL MUNICH.Because I was guarantied to be paid for any engine damage I begun to use the (FREE) oil in my Zuendapp and Hercules GS + OSSA  bikes.I have never used any other oil then OPTIMOL 100-1 in any of my bikes to the day.2 or 4 stroke it is IMO the finest oil in the world.
OPTIMOL is now distributed by INTERLUBE INTERNATIONAL INC.out of Bellingham Washington USA.
//www.opti2-4.com
For more of my pers.expirience talk to me.
Speedy------->>>>>>>




Helmut Clasen KTM
162 Hillcrest Ave
L9H 4Y3
Dundas Ontario Canada
Ph.905-627-5349
[email protected]
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
Sachs GP-GS 250-7A reeds
Zuendapp 125 GS ISDT repl.73
KTM 450 EXC Auto.03
Duke spec.Edit,1996
Adventurer 02

I will say if I was to run a oil leaner than 40:1 , I would go with Optimal. I use it in my Aeroplane engine ( low rpm , 100:1 ) but I also used it in my Hodaka 100B a couple months ago when we had a VINDURO trail ride for 2 days up in the mountains of Oklahoma and N.Ark. I mixed at 80:1 , no smoke , no problems and I ran the piss out of the poor little bike for 176 miles in 2 days.  Speedy likes it so it can't be all bad. Now I haven't had a long term test with this oil. I still like the richer 40:1 mixture better though. It just ain't natural to run 100:1 in a racing Motorcycle !  Why can't Optimol make a racing motorcycle oil to be sold though bike shops. It just isn't right having to buy oil from a Lawn and Garden shop.
Cher'o,
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[dirtbike]

Interesting topic!
Only problem, it's made up for debate...

I was thinking, does anyone use Pennzoil Outboard and multi purpose 2 cycle oil?
I have found this article very interesting..
http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm

As for other comments from me. I can only tell what has worked good for me and what hasn't. Since I live in sweden we have a bunch of brands that you probably don't. And we for sure don't have most of the more specialized oil you reffer to. I used castrol TTS a while and it didn't work out at all. Nice smell though!

I belive that snowmobile and outboard oils need to be equal to the finest bike oils in order to gain acceptance in those communities and in the case of outboard, there is pretty strict classifications to consider too.
I have noticed that Amsoil have a product that is made for snow, outboard and bikes that is said to be fine. Complies to TC-W3 and all. Does anyone have experience with that one?

[firstturn]

dirtbike,
  To answer you will see Rocket uses Pennziol Outboard oil.

Ron Carbaugh

[tomale]

Thanks Dwight,
I suppose that I tend to be simplistic. I had taken my spark arrestor off and found it to be almost plugged. I took it apart and with the help of a propane torch cleaned it up and put it back into service. I used golden spectro and always had good luck with it. But if I can get the kind of lubrication that is needed and get the bike to run cleaner...
I do not have any two stokes smaller than my 250 and have no plans to do so. It seemed to me that the oil requirments on the little bikes were much more critical than they were for the biggger bikes.
Related question... I was wondering about lub reguirements on trail bikes. We have lots of hills and mountains around here and it is not unusual to be on a down hill that could last for 5-10 minutes. Is it important to change the oil/gas ratio if you are going to be riding it in the hills.. I worry about the motor getting enought lub on those long down hills while throttle is off and the motor is running faster than idle speed.   Maybe a good reason to use a good synthetic oil.

Thom Green,I own and ride a 76 250 MC5 MX which I bought new.

[dirtbike]

Ehhh... I was thinkin!! Could I turn this around a bit?
I have been studying the standards a bit an I have found that several quite expensive bottles with flashy labels doesn't really comply (or is it complie?) to the expected classifications.

I checked out the Bel-Ray homepage and brought up the MC1 oil just to see which standards it met. They didn't wrote it though. So this is what I would like. All these oils, good and bad, which standards do they meet? I would like to see how much these JASO-FC and TC-W3 classifications really is worth in real life.

[Steve Minor]

I've had good results with Castor 927 @40:1 for my 1977 400 GS6......It lubes good and smells great.

Thom, as far as your downhill riding concern, if I'm on a long downhill, I shift into neutral and give the throttle a blip or two every once in a while.

[Dwight Rudder]

quote:Originally posted by dirtbike

Interesting topic!
Only problem, it's made up for debate...

I was thinking, does anyone use Pennzoil Outboard and multi purpose 2 cycle oil?
I have found this article very interesting..
http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm

You must remember that Ultralight engines for the most part run a steady and realitively low rpm to what a 2 cycle dirt bike engine runs. That means you could get away with a bit inferior oil. Not that I would want to in my Aeroplane. The Pennzoil is probably one of the best of the Utility type 2 cycle engine oils. But if it was so good why doesn't Pennzoil aggresively go for the Motorcycle market. Years ago Pennzoil was sponsoring the Husqvarna race team. They were running HiPoint in Pennzoil bottles. Similar things like this happen all the time with race teams. I know a major brand of Motorcycle that lots of folks use their oil (Can you say Yamalube ?). I also know that their race teams use another major brand of oil that the team purchases and places in the Yamalube bottles. ( I am sworn to secrecy on this one )
Basically what I am saying is that not everyone is running what they tell you they are.
I run Wesson oil. Smells like fried chicken when I ride.
HEHEHE,
Dwight

Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[Lloyd Boland]

This discussion has been very informative for a novice in this field and I really appreciate all the expert advice.  I understand many who contributed did so with the caveat "this is what works for me", and with a little apprehension not wanting to suggest something that may cause a problem with someone elses bike.  We can only make educated decisions once we become educated.  So I thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion.  One final question, I noticed a couple of references to Yamalube, a local shop in town, the guys who rebuild my MC5, by the way it screams, recommended Yamalube as that is what they run in their vintage flat trackers and road racers at 32:1.  Anyone have experience or knowledge of the quality of Yamalube?  Thanks again.

[firstturn]

Lloyd,
  I have used it and recommend it at 32:1 and have never had a failure.  To what Dwight described about Yamaha riders not using Yamalube I found this with nearly all factory or other riders not using the oil products that may be sponsering them.  Especially when it comes tyo oil for their gas mix.
  Last year(on the Forum) I described about how I use to get sponsorship money from Pennzoil and never used the oil in my gas.  I did use it in my transmission and assembling my engine so I did forefill my obligation.  To my surprise Rocket (Rod) had been and is still using it, and his bikes are raced, with no failures.
  Your point and this dialog is just a great example of the input we all can contribute as to what works for us.

Ron Carbaugh